Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[Suttree]

Well, maybe Cadsuane knows more, I don't know. But the only time we see Greens fight a battle (not simple skirmish) is when Seanchan attacked. And what we see? Complete failure. And AS were lead by the supposedly greatest Green, which was supposed to lead the whole Tower and the free world against the Dark in the last battle. Total joke!

 

To name a few wouldn't you call Dumais Wells, the assault on Malden, and the 2Rs defense battles?

 

What is a total joke is to judge all the greens based on the first ever midnight aerial raid in the history of Randland. This came against a forsaken string pulling, BA riddled, Byrne led army camped at their door, Fain influenced, Elaida led, split WT. At the time of the raid sisters were being assualted for going into other Ajah's quarters. How could anyone coordinate a defense given that? There is no force in the known world that would do well under those circumstances. Even so Egwene managed ok and she is now their leader.

 

Please enlighten us about other examples what Greens can do. The Cleansing does not count. I've already half ready to give you the point about Cadsuane's ability.

 

Skeeve, go back and actually read the thread. Starting around post #566 what you ask has been covered ad nauseam.

[XXX]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

 

No.."strong knowledge" is your spin on it just like how you used "stunned him with her knowledge" earlier. The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless and had some knowledge. As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless" anything greater than that becomes "some knowledge".

 

As usual you are sorely mistaken about the actual text and the thread. I admitted in post once I read the quote that when I said "stunned" it had been some time since I read KoD and had it wrong. So no, plainly not trying to "spin" anything. As for the quote

 

She and Joline had kept trying to stick their noses into his planning, and so had Edesina to a lesser extent, until he chased them away. Aes Sedai thought they knew everything, and while Joline at least did know something of war, he had not needed advice.

 

Very clearly the quote says AS thought they knew everything, and although he hadn't needed the advice, in this instance Joline knew what she was taking about. Given the source that is strong praise indeed. As you can't provide the slightest bit of evidence to show any of my military examples are not valid, the point stands. The part that makes your post totally comedy is you don't even see the irony of accusing me of spin, and then trying to say Mat was comparing her to a "completely useless" standard in the same breath. Not sure why you keep quoting the phrase because it doesn't show up anywhere. As usual your post falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny, although none of us would expect anything different when it comes to a troll.

 

Sure I am the troll...just like how Mat was "stunned" by Joline's brilliance.

 

Sigh.

 

Surely you can see how in trying to accuse me of exaggeration, it's counter productive for you to actually include the quote where I admitted it had been some time since I read KoD and had the "stunned" part wrong?

 

On the flip side trolls often stick to creating straw men, splitting hairs over terminology, and making things up as they don't actually have anything to counter a valid point with. In this case you have been unable to give any evidence(for this or any of the other examples I gave) to counter the fact that it was written to show she knows military tactics. In addition you have made up a phrase("completely useless as usual") out of thin air and quoted it in multiple responses as if it actually comes from the text in Mats pov and he is using it as a frame of reference. Not the worst thing I have seen the x rated troll post on these boards, but surely the label fits.

 

 

I see so you make up text that Mat is stunned by Joline's knowledge and then when called out on it spin it that he said she has strong knowledge and I am accused of making up phrases to support my point of view? Troll is as troll does.

AS lovers must be getting really desperate. WoT must be a sad series for you to read as the AS get kicked around and humiliated throughout the series.

[Skeeve the Great]

 

To name a few wouldn't you call Dumais Wells,

 

If you meant AS with Perrin charging ahead as foolheads - no. I don't think it shows any of their "superior" battle knowledge. And don't give me this crap about them being in danger. The Oath allow them to fight with the Power when any Sister is in danger, not only them. If you meant Elaida's Aes Sedai - not only Greens were not in command of anything, Reds were, but Greens' very poor Power usage (fireballs, lightnings and air shields, although blame lies with every Aes Sedai) was the key of defeating them in the first place. A few months of Asha'man training outpaced so-called Battle Ajah by centuries!

 

the assault on Malden,

 

What? Battle of Malden? Are you serious? The only thing that was truly showed in the battle of Malden that Perrin ingenious tactics, few damane and Two Rivers bows can decimate pretty much any enemy, Aiel being one of them badasses. Sorry, but I can't see how you can put this battle as a point in Green's favor.

 

and the 2Rs defense battles?

Again no. Battle of Two Rivers showed no points for the Green. The only things in this battle that even remotely was showing might of the Green Aes Sedai is Alanna's willingness to exaust herself trying to compensate for the very limited and miniscule knowledge of the battles that she has.

 

What is a total joke is to judge all the greens based on the first ever midnight aerial raid in the history of Randland.

As far as I know Drakhars were around since the War of Power. Aerial assaults is not news for the Aes Sedai. Fighting other channelers is not news, it was done several times before (dreadlords and all). So why sudden inability to defend your own home?

 

This came against a forsaken string pulling, BA riddled, Byrne led army camped at their door, Fain influenced, Elaida led, split WT. At the time of the raid sisters were being assualted for going into other Ajah's quarters. How could anyone coordinate a defense given that?

Battle AS supposed to do that. It has 3000 years to prepare for the Last Battle and the steady decline in their abilities to do anything useful is what the most people is arguing. Thank you for providing strong support, btw

 

There is no force in the known world that would do well under those circumstances. Even so Egwene managed ok and she is now their leader.

Let me get it straight. Innkeeper's daughter couple years out of puberty, who the most time of her life didn't see the world comes and outperforms the Battle Ajah which are the preparing themselves for the Last Battle? Yeah I see that it shows how great Battle Ajah is... /sarcasm

 

Skeeve, go back and actually read the thread. Starting around post #566 what you ask has been covered ad nauseam.

Don't worry, I'm following this thread from the beginning. Nothing was shown so far that paints Green Ajah even in remotely positive way. Except a very selective examples (one being Cadsuane, the other being Elayne), none of them even remotely can be called knowledgeable in the battle.

 

Let me give you a few examples. Yellow Ajah - noone can dispute that they know more about human body and healing than any other Ajah. Yet, Greens show nothing exceptional in terms of battle weaves or strategies that any other Ajah. Another example, White Ajah. They know more about theoretical making of the world and stuff than anyother Ajah. Yet in the battle they are the same deadly force as any of the Greens (fight in TAR proves it). How come? What exactly "preparing themselves for the Last Battle" means? So far I saw very poor performance. "Something" as Mat called it.

[Suttree]

I see so you make up text that Mat is stunned by Joline's knowledge and then when called out on it spin it that he said she has strong knowledge and I am accused of making up phrases to support my point of view? Troll is as troll does.

AS lovers must be getting really desperate. WoT must be a sad series for you to read as the AS get kicked around and humiliated throughout the series.

 

xxx you have been acknowledged as a troll on these boards by such disparate people as Randsc, Mr Ares and myself just to name a few. We usually don't agree on all that much, but we agree on that.

 

Once again lets review the facts. First off I made up nothing from the text as you did with your creation when you said flat out

 

The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless

 

& then went on to falsely quote twice

 

Mat's comparison is to "completely useless as usual"

 

 

As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless"

 

My interpretation of his reaction was off because it had been sometime since I read KoD. I admitted that I was wrong on that count all the way back in post #557 and even provided the quote showing my mistake. Being the troll you are you latched on to this a full 2 DAYS after and have now wasted everyones time repeatedly bringing it up. In addition for some reason you straight up fabricated quotes in projecting your wish fulfillment fantasies on to Mat's character.

 

As for AS, as I have said before only one of them is even in my top five characters. I did explain back in post #578 why I feel the need to defend them however. The sad thing is there have been so many good discussions with various posters on this topic. Why you would be unable to contribute besides strangely obsessing on the "stunned" comment, fabricating quotes, and throwing out slander towards AS is beyond me. You were right about one thing though...troll is as troll does.

 

If you meant AS with Perrin charging ahead as foolheads - no. I don't think it shows any of their "superior" battle knowledge. And don't give me this crap about them being in danger. The Oath allow them to fight with the Power when any Sister is in danger, not only them. If you meant Elaida's Aes Sedai - not only Greens were not in command of anything, Reds were, but Greens' very poor Power usage (fireballs, lightnings and air shields, although blame lies with every Aes Sedai) was the key of defeating them in the first place. A few months of Asha'man training outpaced so-called Battle Ajah by centuries!

 

Yes Kiruna did quite well, as acknowledged by Perrin but I was actually referring to 39 AS holding off 40,000 Shaido and 300 WOs. No matter how biased you are, you have to admit that.

 

What? Battle of Malden? Are you serious? The only thing that was truly showed in the battle of Malden that Perrin ingenious tactics, few damane and Two Rivers bows can decimate pretty much any enemy, Aiel being one of them badasses. Sorry, but I can't see how you can put this battle as a point in Green's favor.

 

You were asking about Greens and Seonid played a part in the win. According to your false claim the only battle we had seen Greens in was the Seanchan raid. Just off the top I can name 2rs, Malden, Dumais Wells, Seige of Caemlyn. You have already been proved wrong my skeevy friend(btw that really is a great sig).

 

Again no. Battle of Two Rivers showed no points for the Green. The only things in this battle that even remotely was showing might of the Green Aes Sedai is Alanna's willingness to exaust herself trying to compensate for the very limited and miniscule knowledge of the battles that she has.

 

Again yes. The AS played a key role in both 2Rs battles and Alanna led the forces at the south perimeter.

 

Encyclopedia WoT

Tam al'Thor, Alanna and Ihvon lead the forces at the south perimeter at the defense of Emond's Field. (TSR,Ch56)

 

As far as I know Drakhars were around since the War of Power. Aerial assaults is not news for the Aes Sedai. Fighting other channelers is not news, it was done several times before (dreadlords and all). So why sudden inability to defend your own home?

 

and Draghkar were capable of flying multiple Dreadlords on their backs? Errmmm no, it wasn't like that at all. Totally different scenario as you know.

 

This came against a forsaken string pulling, BA riddled, Byrne led army camped at their door, Fain influenced, Elaida led, split WT. At the time of the raid sisters were being assualted for going into other Ajah's quarters. How could anyone coordinate a defense given that?

 

Battle AS supposed to do that. It has 3000 years to prepare for the Last Battle and the steady decline in their abilities to do anything useful is what the most people is arguing. Thank you for providing strong support, btw

 

Lol You offered absolutely nothing in the way of an actual counter point, those are beyond impossible circumstances. Battle AS are supposed to do what? Have a plan for a forsaken eroding them from within with counter orders, the BA pulling strings, a split WT & Byrne led army of AS camped on heir door, Fain/Mordeth causing every Ajah to be separate and their Amrylin to be insane? Oh and top of that unheard of flying shadowspawn with riding channelers are going to strike out of nowhere thousands of miles away from Seanchan territory. There is not one general in the world, including Mat Cauthon who would prevail in that setting. This is the only battle you are using to talk down on their skills and it is plain to see that the forsaken, ba, and fain had as much to do with it as anything.

 

Don't worry, I'm following this thread from the beginning. Nothing was shown so far that paints Green Ajah even in remotely positive way. Except a very selective examples (one being Cadsuane, the other being Elayne), none of them even remotely can be called knowledgeable in the battle.

 

You say you are following it but somehow skip over the part that even people on the opposite side of the debate have conceded the points you are disputing.

 

But I guess we will see in aMoL how they do. If they aren't event remotely knowledgeable or skilled in battle as you say, surely they will be exposed as frauds then correct? After all how can any unprepared group, with as poor a showing as your interpretation shows fare well at TG? If so I will be right next to you and remind everyone that it was Skeeve the Great who called it! Since some people have a different interpretation of how they have done though throughout the series, and what there capabilities are, why don't we just wait and see?

[Skeeve the Great]

Yes Kiruna did quite well, as acknowledged by Perrin but I was actually referring to 39 AS holding off 40,000 Shaido and 300 WOs. No matter how biased you are, you have to admit that.

 

As you may notice, I was arguing against Green Ajah "battle prowess". In Dumai's Wells Greens did not fare better than other Ajahs. That's the sole point I'm trying to make. For the Ajah named "Battle" Ajah they are pretty much useless. And these Aes Sedai would've been wiped out if it's not for Asha'man.

 

As for Kiruna, I already explained it. I think she displayed exactly the foolishness I expected from Greens. They do not understand battles the way generals and great captains do. In fact, the book shows time and time again that they are simply soldiers. Powerfull ones, granted, but soldiers neverless. And one dimensional at best. They have no idea of battles and wars except "go there, kill some".

 

You were asking about Greens and Seonid played a part in the win.

The same way as any other player Perrin used. No more, no less. It proves nothing.

 

According to your false claim the only battle we had seen Greens in was the Seanchan raid. Just off the top I can name 2rs, Malden, Dumais Wells, Seige of Caemlyn.

 

It was not my claim. My claim was that Green had only one chance to show how mighty and powerful force the Green Ajah is. It was the night of the raid. And they blew it big time. No intelligent planning (even with Egwene's warnings), no tactical moves or thoughts, no fancy weaves or any other awe inspiring flashy staff. Nothing.

 

And I already showed my opinion on the battles you listed. But don't get me started on Seige of Caemlyn.

 

Again yes. The AS played a key role in both 2Rs battles and Alanna led the forces at the south perimeter.

That's BS. Don't quote Encyclopedia to me. We have several chapters of the book showing the battle. Alanna was pathetic as strategist, as planner and as military adviser. She was borderline useless in this. Yeah she threw some fireballs to Trollocs. Big deal. Any Ajah could've done it. We are talking about THE BATTLE FREAKING AJAH.

 

and Draghkar were capable of flying multiple Dreadlords on their backs? Errmmm no, it wasn't like that at all. Totally different scenario as you know.

 

And they seat in the Tower for 3000 years for what? To not adapt? To not come up with the scenarios?

 

Lol You offered absolutely nothing in the way of an actual counter point, those are beyond impossible circumstances. Battle AS are supposed to do what? Have a plan for a forsaken eroding them from within with counter orders, the BA pulling strings, a split WT & Byrne led army of AS camped on heir door, Fain/Mordeth causing every Ajah to be separate and their Amrylin to be insane?

 

Why not? Aren't they preparing for the Last Battle? Don't they expect Forsaken running loose at the TG and before it? Don't they expect to have Dreadlords gathering and attacking or such? What exactly do you think "prepare for the Last Battle" mantra entails? Sitting around?

 

Oh and top of that unheard of flying shadowspawn with riding channelers are going to strike out of nowhere thousands of miles away from Seanchan territory.

Bullsh!t. Seanchan and their flying beast were known to the Tower for a long time now. Plus Egwene specifically warning each and every sister she can talk to about her Dream. Greens supposed to take it seriously. Unless they are worthless, which they proven to be.

 

There is not one general in the world, including Mat Cauthon who would prevail in that setting. This is the only battle you are using to talk down on their skills

Again I call your bull. Ituralde was prepared to everything and was dealing with the Seanchan forces much better than Aes Sedai. I imagine Mat would do the same. Greens? Not so much.

 

You say you are following it but somehow skip over the part that even people on the opposite side of the debate have conceded the points you are disputing.

But I guess we will see in aMoL how they do. If they aren't event remotely knowledgeable or skilled in battle as you say, surely they will be exposed as frauds then correct? After all how can any unprepared group, with as poor a showing as your interpretation shows fare well at TG? If so I will be right next to you and remind everyone that it was Skeeve the Great who called it! Since some people have a different interpretation of how they have done though throughout the series, and what there capabilities are, why don't we just wait and see?

I really hope I'm wrong. So far their truck record is pretty pathetic.

[Suttree]

That's BS. Don't quote Encyclopedia to me. We have several chapters of the book showing the battle. Alanna was pathetic as strategist, as planner and as military adviser. She was borderline useless in this. Yeah she threw some fireballs to Trollocs. Big deal. Any Ajah could've done it. We are talking about THE BATTLE FREAKING AJAH.

 

Woaahh Skeevy my boy, slow down. No need to get all worked up where just having a little debate. All in good fun mate.

 

So Alanna, youre saying she didn't lead the forces on the southern perimeter in the second battle? Because thats what it says she does in the text. You claim she was pathetic in all military areas but that isn't what happened. I challenge you to provide quotes backing up your claim, but I wont wait on it as you just fabricated it entirely. Don't let your anti-AS fervor get in the way of the truth.

 

Also it was the first battle where she threw fireballs and created the exploding ammo for the catapult. Without either the battle would've turned out different looking at how close it still was.

 

The same way as any other player Perrin used. No more, no less. It proves nothing.

 

Hmmm lets see, the AS sat in during the planning sessions and meetings that we saw, they helped counter the Shaidio WOs that were up and about, and we saw a good deal of damage they did with their weaves. Yeah your prob right though...I'm ssuuureee they did no more or no less than any basic player Perrin used

 

And they seat in the Tower for 3000 years for what? To not adapt? To not come up with the scenarios?

 

1st 3000 years was the breaking. During The Trolloc Wars when they acted as Generals and saved the world it was said

BWB

Throughout the Trolloc Wars and into the first part of the War of the Hundred Years by which time the military arts had reached what many regard as their pinnacle

 

Since the Trolloc Wars the AS along with the population of Randland have been in decline. Just want to make it clear I am not saying they are still at that level.

 

2nd they are supposed to prepare for scenarios that don't exist? There was never in the history of their world a threat the like of which the Seanchan presented that night.

 

Why not? Aren't they preparing for the Last Battle? Don't they expect Forsaken running loose at the TG and before it? Don't they expect to have Dreadlords gathering and attacking or such? What exactly do you think "prepare for the Last Battle" mantra entails? Sitting around?

 

Since you can provide no counterpoint addressing the circumstances surrounding that night we might as well move on. You keep skimming over all the factual evidence of why they fared so poorly and keep spouting the same nonsense about preparing as if anyone ever could be prepared for each one of those instances to be happening at the same time. It was a once in a lifetime chance, and the stars just happened to aline for the Seanchan that evening. The WT will never be that ripe for the plucking again.

 

Again I call your bull. Ituralde was prepared to everything and was dealing with the Seanchan forces much better than Aes Sedai. I imagine Mat would do the same. Greens? Not so much.

 

Ituralde was fighting a secret guerilla campaign in which he was the one doing the raids. He was never reacting to an attack and forced to counter moves. While impressive it bears zero relation whatsoever to what we are discussing.

 

Just to play it out let's go back to when Mat was in the narrows. He has no idea that Estean is actually a forsaken who has been working to tear apart the band. In addition as the leader he is still suffering from the daggers touch(emotional swings, distrust etc) he is handing out crazy orders and has stripped a few nobles of rank, it's to the point where the band can no longer trust his moods. Worse yet, little does he know his right hand man Talmanes is actually a DF who has been changing orders and causing all sorts of extra dissension. All of this has totally torn the band apart and men are being assaulted for walking in the wrong part of camp. Paranoia and fear rule the day making it impossible for them to work together as a cohesive force. Due to the injustice of one of his moves the Band has split and now one of the great captains has him trapped with half of his own force and all eyes are locked on that threat. One captured enemy soldier says he has had dreams of a threat, no concrete details and with all else going on it is disregarded. All intelligence he has indicates there is no other threat within thousands of miles and out of the dark, with no way to see it coming all of a sudden the camp is lit up with channeling explosions tearing apart the night. Worse yet they have a device that can turn his own men against him and render them powerless to fight...

 

Look it is fairly obvious from how vehement you are that you very much dislike AS but good god man, don't lie to yourself. NO ONE would prevail under these circumstances.

 

 

You say you are following it but somehow skip over the part that even people on the opposite side of the debate have conceded the points you are disputing.

But I guess we will see in aMoL how they do. If they aren't event remotely knowledgeable or skilled in battle as you say, surely they will be exposed as frauds then correct? After all how can any unprepared group, with as poor a showing as your interpretation shows fare well at TG? If so I will be right next to you and remind everyone that it was Skeeve the Great who called it! Since some people have a different interpretation of how they have done though throughout the series, and what there capabilities are, why don't we just wait and see?

 

I really hope I'm wrong. So far their truck record is pretty pathetic.

 

But Skeeve wait a second. According to you their track record has been pathetic, they are foolish, don't understand battles, zero special weaves or anything of military strategy(although earlier you admitted one according to Mat knew something and that they all probably read books so...not sure how you circled back on yourself there?)and have failed or not had a good showing in any engagement we have seen. If you are correct in your assessment of the text there is zero chance for them to be successful at TG. Don't hedge now and say you hope you're wrong, stand by your opinion mate and make your call. According to you they are frauds, no chance for the Greens in battle during aMoL correct?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Suttree, you have valid points but IMHO you should acknowledge that even though the circumstances of the Seanchan raid were tough, the Battle Ajah still behaved in a very unproffesional fashion, for the Ajah claiming to be soldiers. And not any soldiers mind, but soldiers who declare they will defend the Light in TG, against the worst foes imaginable.

 

They should at least have tried to link. It was a huge advantage against the Seanchan and important factor in facing any channeling foe, but they did not even try to do it. Irrespective of the kind of attack and the amount of surprise, there are some basic things they should have done nonetheless. Secure the Amyrlin, secure the ter'angreal and sa'angreal storeroom, get the sa'angreals, link, link and link again. Or at least try to do it. Get together, not run around as panicked individuals. These things should be done in any kind of attack, surprise or no surprise. They could still be defeated, but at least we would see some concerted effort to fight back. Instead they panicked. All Aes Sedai sisters are severly tested to remain calm in any circumstances, battle Ajah should be even tougher - and they panicked. I think it shows they allowed themselves to get rusty and their battle instincts were not working because of lack of practical experience and even simulated, training battle experiences.

 

Look at it that way - put a professional soldier and an average person in equally impossible battle situation. They would both fall in the end, but their behaviour would be different and it would be possible to tell who was a professional soldier and who was a civilian. The way they try to react is important, even if the odds make victory impossible.

 

That's true that Elaida's reign was the worst possible time for WT to face such a test, but please notice the Aes Sedai are a complex organism and there are several "checks and balances" built in their structure. The Ajahs have separate leadership and intelligence. The Amyrlin, however incompetent she might be, is balanced by the hall - and we know there was an alternative power structure formed by Ajah heads which funcioned in parallel to the Amyrlin. It was not just paranoid, Fain-influenced Elaida who failed. None of the Ajah were prepared, which is especially dire in the case of the Greens, who are supposed to be the main battle force of the Tower. No intelligence warned them and they ignored Egwene. The Amyrlin failed, the Ajah heads failed, the Sitters failed, individual sisters failed. Only Egwene and a bunch of novices fought back. No AS sister went to the angreal storeroom to bolster her power, no sisters linked, they remembered the Amyrlin only after the battle...

 

Even taking attenuating circumstances into account, it still shows the Greens need hard battle training before TG.

[Lisa Campbell]

Suttree I think you should give it up. There's no use debating with unreasonable people, I really am amazed that you have managed to keep your composure.

 

I'm not saying this to shoot you down either, I made a pretty comprehensive post a page or three back in support of your arguments and it was pretty much ignored.

 

Sometimes it is just not worth it. Lurkers know what's going on, save your fingers and sanity while you can.

[MasterAblar]

I agree with Piotrek above. Overall, I feel that the Green Ajah hasn't really lived up to it's name as the Battle Ajah, nor as there been real evidence of them "preparing for the Last Battle". Yes, there have been attenuating circumstances at times, and yes they have shown at times that they can be capable in battle, but as a whole they have been dissapointing. In this they are really no different from all the other Ajah's, but I think they may have been the Ajah that dissapointed me the most. They certainly don't compare, as a whole, to the Ashaman, or the Damane, though admitidly the Green Ajah's role is not just to be weapons.

[XXX]

 

 

As for AS, as I have said before only one of them is even in my top five characters. I did explain back in post #578 why I feel the need to defend them however. The sad thing is there have been so many good discussions with various posters on this topic. Why you would be unable to contribute besides strangely obsessing on the "stunned" comment, fabricating quotes, and throwing out slander towards AS is beyond me. You were right about one thing though...troll is as troll does.

 

 

Ashamed to even admit that you are a AS lover?

 

 

Yes Kiruna did quite well, as acknowledged by Perrin but I was actually referring to 39 AS holding off 40,000 Shaido and 300 WOs. No matter how biased you are, you have to admit that.

 

 

Perrin did?..how exactly. Is this your spin from the "queen" comment like "stunned" and "strong knowledge" from earlier?. It sounds like a sarcastic comment from Perrin to me.

 

Also wasn't there 2 river men, men from Cairhienin ,Winged Guards , Aiel WO's, Aiel warriors and wolves holding off the 40,000 Shaido along with the 30 AS?..forgot that little detail?

[XXX]

Not sure how Joline is a great example of a battle hardened veteran in anyway..she shivered like a rat in a basement when the Seachan invaded till Mat saved her. Then allowed Tuon and her assistant to easily capture her and two(?) other AS without breaking a sweat inside the confines of a wagon till Mat had to save her again!!

[XXX]

 

 

Woaahh Skeevy my boy, slow down. No need to get all worked up where just having a little debate. All in good fun mate.

 

So Alanna, youre saying she didn't lead the forces on the southern perimeter in the second battle? Because thats what it says she does in the text. You claim she was pathetic in all military areas but that isn't what happened. I challenge you to provide quotes backing up your claim, but I wont wait on it as you just fabricated it entirely. Don't let your anti-AS fervor get in the way of the truth.

 

 

 

Alanna was "one of the leaders on the southern perimeter"..all the spinning making you dizzy yet?

[Guest PiotrekS]

I would like to add that my critique of the behaviour of the Green Ajah during the Seanchan raid does not mean that I find them worthless or useless. On the contrary, I would like to read more about great Aes Sedai, such as Moiraine, Siuan or Verin we get to know in books 1 or 2. Even in the world in decline, I would like to see AS depicted with a little more realism and therefore shown in better light.

 

I also think that every discussion should be conducted in spirit of mutual respect and friendship. After all, we're all fans of books in general and of WOT in particular, which is a much more important similarity than any particular differences of opinion about any part of the series.

[Lisa Campbell]

I would like to add that my critique of the behaviour of the Green Ajah during the Seanchan raid does not mean that I find them worthless or useless. On the contrary, I would like to read more about great Aes Sedai, such as Moiraine, Siuan or Verin we get to know in books 1 or 2. Even in the world in decline, I would like to see AS depicted with a little more realism and therefore shown in better light.

 

I also think that every discussion should be conducted in spirit of mutual respect and friendship. After all, we're all fans of books in general and of WOT in particular, which is a much more important similarity than any particular differences of opinion about any part of the series.

 

Hear, hear.

[Suttree]

Perrin did?..how exactly. Is this your spin from the "queen" comment like "stunned" and "strong knowledge" from earlier?. It sounds like a sarcastic comment from Perrin to me.

 

I really should even respond but it's just too easy. First off...sarcasm? Not in the slightest and again I'm still trying to understand why you are so obsessed with that comment? Everyone on the boards has seen the circumstances, it's starting to get a bit creepy mate.

LoC

These things passed before his eyes, but he did not let himself see them. There were only the men before him, the brambles, to be cleared by his axe and Loial’s, and Aram’s sword. Then he saw something that pierced his concentration. A rearing horse, a toppling rider being pulled from his saddle as Aiel spears stabbed him. A rider in a red breastplate. And there was another of the Winged Guards, and a clump of them, thrusting their lances, with Nurelle’s plume waving above his helmet. A moment later he saw Kiruna, face serenely unconcerned, striding like a queen of battles along a path carved for her by three Warders and the fires that leaped from her own hands. And there was Bera, and farther over, Faeldrin and Masuri and...

 

Also wasn't there 2 river men, men from Cairhienin ,Winged Guards , Aiel WO's, Aiel warriors and wolves holding off the 40,000 Shaido along with the 30 AS?..forgot that little detail?

 

Not really since they weren't fighting on the side of the WT AS, you know the ones who were holding off the Aiel WOs and Shaido. Forgot that little detail?

 

Alanna was "one of the leaders on the southern perimeter"..all the spinning making you dizzy yet?

 

Errmmm yeah she was. But don't let the correct details get in the way when you post xxx

 

Encyclopedia WoT

Tam al'Thor, Alanna and Ihvon lead the forces at the south perimeter at the defense of Emond's Field. (TSR,Ch56)

 

I would like to add that my critique of the behaviour of the Green Ajah during the Seanchan raid does not mean that I find them worthless or useless. On the contrary, I would like to read more about great Aes Sedai, such as Moiraine, Siuan or Verin we get to know in books 1 or 2. Even in the world in decline, I would like to see AS depicted with a little more realism and therefore shown in better light.

 

I also think that every discussion should be conducted in spirit of mutual respect and friendship. After all, we're all fans of books in general and of WOT in particular, which is a much more important similarity than any particular differences of opinion about any part of the series.

 

I also read you post a few up PiotrekS in addition to this one and you have some very solid points. Mastar Ablar, read yours as well and I would say for the most part it is pretty fair. I see both sides when it comes to the Green Ajah as do you both. We might disagree on some of the middle details but I don't think we're all that far off. I have never argued that those circumstances exonerate them for that night in totality, it was obviously a loss and a hard one. What it doesn't do however is make a blanket statement on all Greens to the effect that some people claim.

 

As for the attitudes of some posters, don't worry mate I don't let trolls get under my skin. The types of debates I have with people like you are what I am engaged in. The rest is just fluff and feathers. Just about everything has been said at this point anyway, I'm taking the advice of a poster wiser than myself and bowing out until the topic moves on to something else.

[Kahsm]

Perrin did?..how exactly. Is this your spin from the "queen" comment like "stunned" and "strong knowledge" from earlier?. It sounds like a sarcastic comment from Perrin to me.

 

I really should even respond but it's just too easy. First off...sarcasm? Not in the slightest and again I'm still trying to understand why you are so obsessed with that comment? Everyone on the boards has seen the circumstances, it's starting to get a bit creepy mate.

LoC

 

XXX47 is not a troll, he's clearly a politician IRL, jumping on any gaff and clinging to it for dear life, waving it around to try to discredit any other obviously unrelated statements.

 

We get it, Mat wasn't stunned, but please quote the place where Mat said all Aes Sedai are, "completely useless". You're hardly the one to chide someone else for hyperbole.

[damandred]

I stated in my post that started this debate that the green ajah were the biggest bunch of losers in the series, and have read nothing that has changed my mind up to now.

I won't repeat my reasons, I would just like to point out that since book 5 it has been common knowlage that the dragon has been reborn. That can only mean TG is nigh. It is my understanding the the battle ajahs main reason for being is to be at the forefront, the spear head of the lights forces for TG. Yes we've seen greens in battle but not against the shadow. I know, I know, the 2rivers an the manner house but that wasn't actively taking the fight to the shadow, that was just being in the wrong place at the right/wrong time.

The fact that we've seen no greens rallying the forces of light or rushing to the blight to defend the boarders is in my opinion indefencesable.

Lastly the AS as a whole have not lived up to the promise of the first half of the series mainly because of the need to make Egwene look good at their exspence something RJ began and BS ran away with. I have AS charactors that I love (cads,morry,nyna and vierin to name but a few) but most are just foolish and wouldn't make it onto my pub quiz team never mind being part of a so called elite organization.

[Suttree]

The fact that we've seen no greens rallying the forces of light or rushing to the blight to defend the boarders is in my opinion indefencesable.

 

Now this hasn't been brought up so I'll jump in. While we know the Borderland nations have multiple advisors(tPoD prologue), I have seen posters rightly say that Greens should have rally stations set up in the Borderlands to guard against something like this. But since that isn't the case is it right for them to blindly rush in now? We know Egwene upon learning of the invasions immediately enacted war time powers to co-opt the Blue Network in order to properly asses the situation. Intelligence gathering is the first step in fighting a war. Ituralde himself says

 

TGS

Other commanders might have wanted the damane, with their ability to throw lightnings and cause the earth to heave, but battles—even wars—were won by information as often as they were by weapons.

 

In my mind I was a bit surprised to not see a bigger reaction, but her decision to handle it this way certainly isn't indefensible. After all if anyone is derelict in not properly defending the Borderlands it is their very rulers who are MIA. I can see the AS wanting to pinpoint the best course of action instead of blindly reacting.

[Lisa Campbell]

I won't repeat my reasons, I would just like to point out that since book 5 it has been common knowlage that the dragon has been reborn. That can only mean TG is nigh. It is my understanding the the battle ajahs main reason for being is to be at the forefront, the spear head of the lights forces for TG. Yes we've seen greens in battle but not against the shadow. I know, I know, the 2rivers an the manner house but that wasn't actively taking the fight to the shadow, that was just being in the wrong place at the right/wrong time.

 

TG is not going to be about all the channelers of the world fighting The Shadow directly. Why would they go haring off to the Blight and Shayol Ghul when they are needed here, there and everywhere in Randland? Being in the right (for the lightside) place at the right time to fight The Shadow's minions and save innocents and soldiers is exactly what they should be doing.

 

Leave The Shadow to Rand and his A-team. Fighting the battles that can be won is more realistic and important for the Greens.

 

 

The fact that we've seen no greens rallying the forces of light or rushing to the blight to defend the boarders is in my opinion indefencesable.

 

Now this hasn't been brought up so I'll jump in. While we know the Borderland nations have multiple advisors(tPoD prologue), I have seen posters rightly say that Greens should have rally stations set up in the Borderlands to guard against something like this. But since that isn't the case is it right for them to blindly rush in now? We know Egwene upon learning of the invasions immediately enacted war time powers to co-opt the Blue Network in order to properly asses the situation. Intelligence gathering is the first step in fighting a war. Ituralde himself says

 

TGS

Other commanders might have wanted the damane, with their ability to throw lightnings and cause the earth to heave, but battles—even wars—were won by information as often as they were by weapons.

 

In my mind I was a bit surprised to not see a bigger reaction, but her decision to handle it this way certainly isn't indefensible. After all if anyone is derelict in not properly defending the Borderlands it is their very rulers who are MIA. I can see the AS wanting to pinpoint the best course of action instead of blindly reacting.

 

The Borderland Kings and Queens have 13 Aes Sedai between them and I presume they are the advisors spoken about in posts above this one. Given that when said rulers and their advisors began their journey to find Rand that The Blight had receded and things were quiet it was probably the best time for them to go on their search which they saw as necessary as Rand had to answer a pertinent question in order to gain their support.

 

They could not foresee that they would get snowed in, or find civil war in Andor etc. to delay them. It was probably a good thing anyway because if they had gotten to Rand earlier, he would not have been able to answer their question and would probably have decimated them. Now they are in position to participate in the meeting at FoM, and then will probably travel back to their respective lands to take up the fight with the help of some Ash'aman reinforcements.

 

It is also likely that at least 1 of those AS are Black. I'm quite looking forward to the revelations of who they are because we have never had a glimpse of them and don't even know any of their names. I'm expecting that some will tie into New Spring. Curious and curiouser...

 

Aww, how many sleeps to go is it?

[damandred]

The fact that we've seen no greens rallying the forces of light or rushing to the blight to defend the boarders is in my opinion indefencesable.

 

Now this hasn't been brought up so I'll jump in. While we know the Borderland nations have multiple advisors(tPoD prologue), I have seen posters rightly say that Greens should have rally stations set up in the Borderlands to guard against something like this. But since that isn't the case is it right for them to blindly rush in now? We know Egwene upon learning of the invasions immediately enacted war time powers to co-opt the Blue Network in order to properly asses the situation. Intelligence gathering is the first step in fighting a war. Ituralde himself says

 

TGS

Other commanders might have wanted the damane, with their ability to throw lightnings and cause the earth to heave, but battles—even wars—were won by information as often as they were by weapons.

 

In my mind I was a bit surprised to not see a bigger reaction, but her decision to handle it this way certainly isn't indefensible. After all if anyone is derelict in not properly defending the Borderlands it is their very rulers who are MIA. I can see the AS wanting to pinpoint the best course of action instead of blindly reacting.

 

 

The BLUE spy-network. I agree that imformation is important, but its also important to do something. I think also the borderland rulers are in direliction of duty, there was no need to remove almost their intire armed might just for that one confrontation with Rand, they were after all in Far Madding. But I think blame must also go to their AS advisers (13 by the way) who seemed to be in cahoots with them, surely they should of been advising how unwise it was to leave the borders undefended right on the eve of the LB!

My biggest gripe with the green is what have they been doing(or not) to prepare for TG. Not the blue network, not Alanna looking for recrutes in the TR, not cadsuane advising Rand (though that is a important role). But in what way have they (and they've had 8 books to start) actively been getting the forces of the light ready to face the trolloc hordes? Their own Captain General was involved in a conspircy to pull the strings on the Amyrlin Seat. Instead of playing the Game of Thrones she should of been readying her Ajah to fight the shadow.

[damandred]

Quote

TG is not going to be about all the channelers of the world fighting The Shadow directly. Why would they go haring off to the Blight and Shayol Ghul when they are needed here, there and everywhere in Randland? Being in the right (for the lightside) place at the right time to fight The Shadow's minions and save innocents and soldiers is exactly what they should be doing.

 

 

 

Maybe they shouldn't all go rushing to the blight but I don't see them doing much else besides being involved in their own little games, the same as most other AS, certainly not preparing for TG.

[Suttree]

I too think the Borderland rulers didn't need such a large force with them in the south. They should have been more careful with their own kingdoms. As for the blight seeming quiet, they knew it was a risk and decided to ignore it. Now they are paying the price of their decision. As Agelmar Jagad says "the shadow never sleeps".

 

tPoD

"Foolhardiness is not courage, Lord Shianri. We leave the Blight all but unguarded, and if we fail, maybe even if we succeed, some of us could find our heads on spikes. Perhaps all of us will. The White Tower may well see to it if this al’Thor does not."

"The Blight seems almost asleep," Terasian muttered, whiskers rasping as he rubbed his fleshy chin. "I’ve never seen it so quiet."

"The Shadow never sleeps," Jagad put in quietly, and Terasian nodded as if that, too, was something to consider.

[dwn]

(I must be crazy to even consider posting in this thread, but...)

 

Regarding the Greens' lack of attention to the blight border, please note said border is about 3000 miles long, going by the map in the guide. There are roughly 1000 Aes Sedai, so perhaps 200 in the Green Ajah, with some needed in the Tower for administration and teaching. That is a very long border to watch with such few numbers.

 

-- dwn

[Sharaman]

Given the example of Algiarin's manor, even a few channelers could make a huge difference.

There's no reason why say, 25-30 greens couldn't be posted in each of the Border Kingdoms.

ideally, along with other ajah in permanent embassies with rotating staff.

[Kahsm]

The BLUE spy-network. I agree that imformation is important, but its also important to do something.

 

So NOW she should be jumping to action, but regarding Rand she should be waiting and asking more questions... hrm...