Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[MasterAblar]

Egwene describes her objection to Rand's plan with the seals to Nynaeve and Elayne, and far from arguing that he should be better prepared before breaking them thinks that he is fully prepared and simply shouldn't break them at all. Yet her fans try to assign the former argument to her instead because they rightly think it holds more water than the one Egwene herself puts forward.

 

So no one should question the DR is that it? Just blindly follow whatever seemingly mad scheme he presents? What she thinks is there should be someway Rand can succeed against the DO without breaking the seals. This of course is different than thinking he is fully prepared. Regardless of her reasoning we know at this juncture she is right to oppose him as he has admitted he is missing something and has no idea how to continue.

 

Until he explains the situation rationally and asks everyone for help, why should she not take this stance? After all Cads has already confirmed one of Min's guesses, wouldn't it be better if they were all on the same page? Now there may be a reason Rand had to play the AS and manipulate her into opposing him. Guess we will find out in aMoL.

 

When did I say no-one should question? What I said is that people shouldn't apply their own motivations to characteres that have already explained what they think and why they think it. Egwene's fans like to harp on the "Rand should dot the i's and cross the t's before breaking the Seals" thing, but Egwene herself does not agree with them. Its weird to me that you guys make up stuff in defense of her character that contradicts the explanations she herself has given.

 

Sorry I don't follow about the making up stuff? I state clearly in my post that her reason is she thinks Rand can defeat the DO without breaking the seals...which is of course very different than what you claim, in that she thinks he is fully prepared with a plan after breaking the seals.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say she thinks that, more that she hasn't thought about this in the first place. She's hasn't thought about whether he can do it or not. She's just sort of assumed that the DR would know what to do with the DO, just as the entire world assumes that the DR will sacrifice himself against the DO. It is, afterall, his job. The DR not knowing how to deal with the DO is a rather scary thought, and one I don't think she has considered, particularly since she's already freaked out about him wanting to break the seals.

 

When she's telling Elayne and Nyneave about the whole thing, she says something like: (in response to Nyneave saying that breaking the seals is no big deal) "Yes, but breaking the seals? That's foolish. Surely Rand can can seal the Dark One without breaking them". That's not the exact wording, but I think it's the gist. You'll notice she makes no mention of him not knowing how to do it, here or at any other point in the book. The issue for her is the breaking of the seals.

[Kahsm]

I call this bullying. If she wanted Nynaeve to understand, why didn't she explained it to her in a polite manner?

Or even better, try to help her with TaR?

 

She did that, it didn't work. It's in all the dialogue before the nightmare while Nynaeve was still deying that she needed the lesson, which she obviously did since she couldn't get out, and still claimed afterward that she could have delt with it, which is obviously untrue since she was unable to deal with the nightmare Egwene did not hold.

 

Oh by the way, if Egwene was bullying Nyneave wouldn't she have held the nightmare? I mean if Nynaeve was capable of defending herself, the nightmare wouldn't have done anything, she'd just will them away. That's not very effective bullying. It is effective at making a point though...

 

Three scratches ran down her neck and disappeared beneath her shift.

Result of bullying.

You'd think she'd comment at that point on how horrible a person Egwene was to have done that to her, it's a perfect time if RJ had any intention of that being what you're supposed to think. And not that Nyneave is stubborn and needs hard lessons, which we've known since she entered the series in the first book...

 

Egwene thinks to herself that she managed to shut Nynaeve up by simply talking to her, whitout raising her voice, but Nynaeve lost ground because she was in shock from the nightmare Egwene throw at her. You can see that she is shocked because she didn't even felt the wounds. Egwene just blocks the bad part away and never consider the nightmare and her wounds playing any part in her change. She just thinks she did it by talking.

The change happened before the nightmare, Egwene was already steamrolling her I quoted the whole scene, there's plenty of dialoge before hand, and Nynaeve notes her loss of mojo before the nightmare:

 

"Will you let me speak!" Nyneave barked, or rather, she tried to bark it. There was rather too much frustrated pleading in there to suit her. Any at all would have been too much."

So the change was happened before, because of the calm talking that was a result of Egwene's embarrassment since she said she tried to yell and couldn't manage it. (All of which I have given quotes to back up)

 

We have a quote later

Guiltily, she realized as she turned a page that she was looking forward to seeing Nynaeve tonight. Not because Nynaeve was a friend, but because she wanted to see if the effects had lingered

She doesn't think: "I hope she took the lesson to heart and now she is more careful in TaR"

She's thinking more like "I hope she's still scared enough to shut up, or I need to scare her more so she can keep her secret." Of course, she calls it talking now.

That's not quite right, the "effects" she refers to are the calm talking she spoke about in her tent afterwards. You yourself claim Egwene "blocked" the bad stuff, but here you suggest she's thinking directly of the bad stuff in that Nynaeve is, "scared enough to shut up". Well which one is it? You pick and choose what you want to make her look as bad as possible. I go with what's written. In BOTH cases she's simply referring to how calmly talking had worked, and if it would still be working.

 

She's not looking to use another nightmare on Nynaeve, that's quite obvious since she never does or tries or suggests it, she's looking to try the calm talking again. So this is irrelevant to the nightmare, which makes sense since the nightmare is irrelevant to the "bullying".

 

 

and surprised that the inadvertent calmness worked so well

Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve’s arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth. She tried to make them vanish—if a Wise One dreamwalker could, so could she—and one of them ripped her dress open down the front like parchment. The other seized her chin in a horny, callused hand and twisted her face toward him; his head bent toward her, mouth opening. Whether to kiss or bite, she did not know, but she would rather die than allow either. She flailed for saidar and found nothing; it was horror filling her, not anger. Thick fingernails dug into her cheeks, holding her head steady. Egwene had done this, somehow. Egwene. “Please, Egwene!” It was a squeal, and she was too terrified to care. “Please!”

 

The men—creatures—vanished, and her feet thudded to the floor. For a moment all she could do was shudder and weep. Hastily she repaired the damage to her dress, but the scratches from long fingernails remained on her neck and chest. Clothing could be mended easily in Tel’aran’rhiod, but whatever happened to a human . . . Her knees shook so badly that it was all she could do to stay upright.

 

This inadvertent calmness?!? Again, she is blocking the fact that she just hurt/scared her friend, and she believes that it was the talking. It was not. Nynaeve was in shock(not feeling the wounds), and was sad that she didn't told her everything about the forkroot.

And we're back to blocking out the bad stuff. And the forkroot didn't come up until Nynaeve started wondering how she had lost her edge, and told her of it to try to regain the moral high ground. Again, I'm not saying she wasn't disappointed in herself, she was, but the reason she told was to try to regain her ground. It's in the text. I've quoted it at least three times now. I need to try keeping my responses shorter so people actually read them.

 

What had happened with Nynaeve still amazed her. I think she’d actually have drunk, if I had pressed her. She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth. And she had been so sure that Nynaeve would find out anyway—the woman was quite capable of turning her in and saying it was for her own good—that all she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong.(AB: I guess throwing her into a nightmare can be considered 'talking') No matter how angry Nynaeve made her, she could not seem to bring up a shout. And with all of that(AB: nightmare included), somehow, she had gained the upper hand.

 

She did tried to stop her from finding out the truth. By any means necesarry. And almost forcing Nyn to dring some tea for not telling the whole story about the forkroot while trying to lie to her to her face is also not very nice.

That's not what it says and you know it because you quoted it. It specifically says she tried to stop her by, "keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth". Then you turn around and suggest that's proof of "Any means necesarry" Would she have killed Nynaeve? Starting to see my qualms yet?

 

The difference is that Egewne knows and understands the risks

 

But the point is she doen't know the riscks. She is almost trapped/killed by Moghedien several chapters later. And she didn't even notice she was in mortal danger.

Knowing the risks does not mean you can avoid them all. Egwene knew it was possible and took the risk anyway. She may still fail, but she'd know it was her own fault. Egwene knew it was possible for her to be trapped. Nynaeve. on the other hand, flies around TAR like nothing can stop her. That's the difference. Even after the nightmare she still denied that it had trapped her! "I could have dreamed myself away, to Sheriam's study or back to my bed." [...] "If you had not been to scared spit-less to think of it."

 

Seems to me Egwene's lesson wasn't hard enough!

 

Some extra comments.

 

By telling her everything, Nynaeve tries to return to being on an equal footing.

She remembered quite clearly the day when the balance between them had shifted, when they ceased being the Wisdom and the girl who fetched when the Wisdom said fetch, becoming instead just two women far from home. It seemed that balance had shifted further, and she did not like it. She was going to have to do something to move it back where it belonged.

She doesn't say that she wants to boss Egwene around, she wants to return to being just two women far from home. And they are equal, although Egwene seems to consider herself already AS.

Egwene on the other hand wants to deepen her control, and maintain her advantage, although Nynaeve is the older and more experienced person, in many things, if not TaR. But Egwene wants the control to be absolute, even outside the TaR.

That's another difference between them. Nynaeve is contended with them being equals(with the normal discussions on occasion), while Egwene wants to pass over the equal part of her relationship and inverse the situation Nyn had back in Two Rivers.

I replied to equal footing already in a reply to Grayson I believe, please look there for shortness. I quote 3 seperate things from the same scene that show that it's not equal that Nynaeve is looking for at all. The quotes include her "robing" herself in her wisdom authority, and a couple others about how Egwene is _always_ wrong when arguing with Nyneave and that it's a bad 'habit' of Egwene's. None of that suggests she wants to be "equal" as you suggest.

 

Although you don't want to see this, but the simple truth is Egwene hurt her friend to drive home a point, and made the same mistake she tried to stop Nynaeve from doing.

She just believed she can handle the TaR. She couldn't, as Moghedien proved it to her.

She was unable to follow the lesson she tried to teach Nynaeve. By doing this, she lost all the moral high-ground she still thinks she has.

 

I can't see what's not there. I don't have that talent. Wait, what did you say? "Egwene hurt her friend to drive home a point" Yes! Yes she did do that! That's not what you said earlier, you said, "Point is, she tries to bully Nyn into submission to cover her wrongdoings, to the point that she actually hurts Nynaeve" (exact quote), that's very different. But yeah Nynaeve switched all the kids back as wisdom to drive home various "points". Get over it. I'm not usually one for corporal punishment either, but that doesn't make those who are rotten people. Probably why Nynaeve doesn't complain about it, she knows better.

 

And yet, the blind Egwene fan is the only person here who interprets the scene that way. It's not an opinion or an interpretation. The text explicitly makes it clear that Egwene's purpose in scaring Nynaeve is to cover up her own wrong doings. The educating Nynaeve about the dangers of TAR line is just her BS explanation to Nynaeve for it. Perhaps you should condesend a little less when you're the only one here with the reading comprehension problem.

 

You like Egwene, that's cool. This action alone is nasty, but I can understand if you think her positives still outweigh her negatives and continue to like her. But to claim this scene is her doing anything other than covering her own ass by treating her friend poorly is just a willfully wrong reading of the book.

 

Explicit: "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt."

 

And the ONLY thing in this regard it says 'explicitly' is, "All she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nyneave was doing wrong." That is what is explicit. No mention of the nightmare being any part of that. If you want to claim it's implied, you'll need something else to back it up with. Otherwise I'll stick with what actually is explicit, since I do not have a reading comprehension problem.

 

You could also try explaining to me why my "interpretation" is wrong, since all you've done is defend your own from my resoundingly apt squashing of everything you think you knew about this scene -- through your hate coloured glasses, or at least your assume-the-worst-of-an-ambitious-character... coloured... glasses.

[Suttree]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

@ Sutree.

By personally you mean helped by Nyn&co, WO, and author shield, represented there by the arrival of Perrin and Gawyn. Sorry, Gawin and a second later Perrin in that order. If Perrin arrived with several seconds before Gawyn, the poor guy would have had to walk all the way from Caemlyn to save her. Egwene really planed their arrival perfectly. Oh, wait, she didn't.

 

Look at it this way, would you say Rand did not personally defeat Rahvin because Nyn ran some interference? By personally I mean she faced off with a forsaken, one on one in a room alone and defeated her. Yes there were other people involved in the over all fight but she dueled Messy and won. It's crazy the lengths people will go to not give her credit.

[Elan Tedronai]

suttree my dear,

 

To quote the famous saying of Agent smith at the end of the matrix......

 

'Why why do you persist?' Why bother defending egwene? It's a lost cause. Better save your energy. Nothing she does or says will make any difference.

 

her fate in dragonmount boards was sealed in TOM when she confronted rand.

[damandred]

I think Egwenes atitude is the same as all women in general in randland. From wise ones to aes sedai to the womens circle to sea folk,ebou dari ect ect. In most socities in randland women have the most power and think they should look after or "handle" the men.most prosserbly its has to do with the taint that was on saidin. I know Egwenes made mistakes like lying to the wise ones but she met her toh and no one can say she hasn't met all her challenges with iron will and determination. So if sometimes she thinks only her way is the right way so do most women in the WoT if the other ways a mans way. But admittedly she is a little hard to like sometimes. Then again I think her parts in TGS were the best parts of the book.

[Himiko]

 

You need to reread that. She frightened Nyn to show her that TAR was dangerous because Nyn was being stupid and ignoring the wise one's warnings. And that's something Nynaeve does consistantly, is ignore people who know better just because she can't admit to herself anyone could possibly teach her anything. One of the awesome things about Egwene is that she worships and respects the people she recognizes have something to teach her.

 

Seriously, Kael? I'm kind of getting tired of this "If you read a scene and come out with a negative impression of Egwene, then you have read it WRONG, because I like Egwene and I have a different interpretation to yours, so my reading is RIGHT." attitude in certain pro-Egwene posts.

 

Egwene starts her rant on the dangers of TAR only AFTER Nynaeve mentions her being on her own. There is no evidence to suggest that she had any intention of giving Nynaeve her "lesson" until it looked like she might get busted for doing something she shouldn't. Afterwards, she thinks about how she'd kept the focus on what Nynaeve had done wrong, because she desperately didn't want the WOs finding out about what she'd done- that was clearly the focus and the reasoning behind it. Later on, she is delighted with how the balance is shifted- not because the balance is now equal, but because now she can make Nynaeve jump and cringe with a look and a sentence. She is disappointed when Nynaeve doesn't appear again, despite the fact that the end result is exactly the same with seeing Elayne, because she was looking forward to using her new skills on Nynaeve again. There is no evidence in the text to suggest that Egwene planned any of what she did to Nynaeve, and there is plenty of evidence that her primary motivation was to cover up what Egwene did wrong.

 

No-one is debating that Nynaeve is not as good as the Aiel dreamwalkers. No-one is debating that TAR is dangerous. But in Egwene's mind, the dangers of TAR are just mentioned as an aside, putting Nynaeve off the scent of the WOs, and cowing her/ distracting her until she doesn't ask any more questions is her aim. The text is perfectly clear on that. Saying "the dangers she had told Nynaeve about were true" would have been a totally irrelevant sentence had educating Nynaeve been her initial aim, that would simply have been assumed. That sentence is there only to serve to tell us that, despite Egwene's aims being her own secrets, she told the truth about TAR being dangerous.

 

randsc put an analogy up in an old Egwene thread once, and I can't remember it word for word, but I remember the gist of it, so credit goes to him for this: A man is having an affair with a woman. His daughter walks home from work every night, and sometimes she walks near this woman's house, which happens to be in a dodgy area of town. She's been warned against walking through it, because its a dangerous area, but she continues to do it. The man is worried that if she continues to walk this close to the woman's house, she will find out about their affair. So he pays some men to molest his daughter one night. She never goes back there, so he has covered up his affair- and in happy coincidence, she now takes a safer route home as a direct result of his actions. Does that make his actions OK, does it make him a good father?

 

I'm actually kind of curious- if they hadn't been in TAR, or if Nynaeve had been more experienced, and caught Egwene out THEN, do you really think that Egwene would have said "Oh, fair enough, the Wise Ones won't let me come here yet", or would she have done exactly what she did- turn on Nynaeve with some other pretext until her secret was forgotten?

 

You highlighted the passage where Nynaeve talks about the balance shifting between her and Egwene. Note that first she talks about how the balance shifted to being the Wisdom and the girl who jumped to being two women far from home (which Nynaeve herself started in TGH, by telling Egwene that they were no longer Wisdom and Apprentice, and Egwene shouldn't give her the title), she THEN talks about how the balance has shifted further- ie. they are no longer equal, Egwene sees herself/ is seen as "superior", and that is what Nynaeve has a problem with. That's how I read it. Let me guess - I need to read the text again until I agree with you?

 

No, you are not allowed to have an opinion on the text if there is other text that obviously discredits your interpretation. And I have been pretty thorough in explaining why the various lines across the entire chapter and 2 PoVs discredit the idea that Egwene had Nynaeve ravaged just to hide her secret. It simply cannot be true, it is not a matter of "interpretation".

 

And yet, the blind Egwene fan is the only person here who interprets the scene that way. It's not an opinion or an interpretation. The text explicitly makes it clear that Egwene's purpose in scaring Nynaeve is to cover up her own wrong doings. The educating Nynaeve about the dangers of TAR line is just her BS explanation to Nynaeve for it. Perhaps you should condesend a little less when you're the only one here with the reading comprehension problem.

 

You like Egwene, that's cool. This action alone is nasty, but I can understand if you think her positives still outweigh her negatives and continue to like her. But to claim this scene is her doing anything other than covering her own ass by treating her friend poorly is just a willfully wrong reading of the book.

 

 

Know what? I'm just going to +1 this, Kael, because for all I usually enjoy debating with you, despite our differences of opinion, I honestly don't see how your interpretation rings true in the text at all, I think its made perfectly clear that Egwene's primary purpose is to distract Nynaeve from her secret and cover her own ass- beforehand, she shows no indication of planning to educate Nyn and Elayne in the dangers of TAR, its just what crops up in her head when she's trying her distracting.

 

Despite the fact that the argument that "Egwene is a wonderful girl who's just trying to keep her friend safe and just happens to keep her secret and enjoy it immensely is just a happy aside for her" kind of annoys me given my view of the text, I don't say "You're an idiot who is reading the book totally wrong. You're not allowed your opinion because there is other text that obviously discredits your opinion" (and I do believe this is the case with your opinion, to be blunt), because that would be rude and condescending. People read the text differently to you (even others who like Egwene), and we obviously don't agree with other interpretations of the text. Well, hi, if we all thought the same, we'd all either love or hate Egwene. But please, don't tell me I'm not entitled to my opinion when I've read this passage exhaustively. Thank you.

 

Or, if we're going to try and disallow others opinions: I believe that the White Tower can transform into a giant robot and battle its foes. Disagree with me all you want, but try and disallow me that opinion? Have fun with that, I await the brainwaves eagerly ;P (Pardon the sarcasm in this paragraph, trying to lighten the mood a little).

 

Also:

 

@Suttree: I'd agree that its a moment in Egwene's coming of age- I see it more as a transition into AS, as I don't recall any instances of Nynaeve bullying Egwene- the two of them butting heads, yes, but Egwene was always just as belligerent as Nynaeve in those instances, if not more. This scene is an early instance of her showing calm, to get her own way. I think her realisation of how well it worked is a precursor to her dealings as Amyrlin with the hall later. I don't agree with what she did, but I think from an author POV it was to show her moving on from the sulky girl who resents Nynaeve's leadership and rebels against it with arguments, to someone who understands how to use calm words to undermine her opponents, something she uses quite regularly later in the series when dealing with other AS. That's what I assumed, anyway :)

 

And I don't know if I'm included in the "claims that Eg tortured Nyn for sadistic pleasure", but for my part, I don't think that was part of her initial motivation at all, I think initially she intended to cover up her secret, but enjoyed the power she'd had over Nynaeve in their encounter and wanted to see if had held, and if Nynaeve would see her as "superior", not that she wanted to conjure up magical dream rapists on Nyn again for lolz. Just to clear it up :)

[capuga]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

I don't really disagree with your general points here, but I'm curious as to where we actually see the bolded part happen? We see Nynaeve act superior and like she knows best. I don't recall her actually ever bullying Egwene. I also don't remember any evidence that it happened prior to the books. I would imagine that she had to put up with Nynaeve's hard-headedness and air of superiority as her apprentice, but there is no reason to believe she was ever bullied.

[Xcorpyo001]

......................

 

Is no use trying to explain this to you. You just try to change anything to suit your own perception of the thing.

She wasn't trying to teach Nynaeve about TaR, she was just trying to do everything she could to hide the fact she was breaking a promise to the WO.

The revelation about the control came later.

And she's being hypocritical twice.

Once she punishes Nynaeve to teach her the dangers of TaR, while she's doing the same thing she did without understanding all the dangers.

She accuses Nynaeve of lying to her while trying to do the same thing. You can use cover up if you don't like lying, but Nynaeve didn't actually lied herself. She just didn't told her everything.

 

Let's make it simple. Egwene is breaking the promises to the WO by being alone in TaR. Nynaeve sees her and asks her if she's allowed to be alone there. Egwene wants to cover up her mistake and tries to do that by 'explaining' to Nynaeve that is dangerous to be in TaR alone. Later she is attacked by a Forsaken and she doesn't even realize it, because she thinks she can handle things in TaR.

Later on she'll go even further and enter Gawyn's dream and can't get out. So she doesn't know everything herself, but she thinks that only everybody else has to be careful, because she has everything under control and nothing can hurt her in a dream.

 

This all thing made me think of a little joke, but I don't know if I'll be able to translate it right in english, or if will keep it's meening. And we also have strict rules inside a church.

 

Two guys talking over a couple of beers.

-I went to church last Sunday.

-Wow, nice. How did it go?

-Well, it was interesting, although I saw some weird things there.

-What exactly?

-Well, in the middle of the service, I turned to my neighbor, and she was actually smoking!

No way!

Yes, man. I've almost dropped my beer when I saw her

 

Anyway, I have to find a small extrapolation for myself.

 

Egwene is trying to explain to Nynaeve the dangers of smoking.

She traps Nynaeve in a sealed glass room and drains the air out.

While Nynaeve struggles for breath and begs her friends to let her go, Egwene is simply explaining to her all the problems she'll have if she continues to smoke, stopping from time to time to smoke her own cigar.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

I don't really disagree with your general points here, but I'm curious as to where we actually see the bolded part happen? We see Nynaeve act superior and like she knows best. I don't recall her actually ever bullying Egwene. I also don't remember any evidence that it happened prior to the books. I would imagine that she had to put up with Nynaeve's hard-headedness and air of superiority as her apprentice, but there is no reason to believe she was ever bullied.

 

Precisely. The more support in the text one can find for strongly critiquing Egwene for her behaviour towards Nynaeve, the more we can hear that Nyn "bullied Egwene for years" despite absolute lack of any evidence of that in the text.

It seems to me that while Nynaeve was difficult sometimes to deal with - and I repeat I guess she was most difficult to men - she has always in fact pulled Egwene up, giving her a chance to train to be a Wisdom (which was probably the first instance of Egwene getting info that she could rise above average, maybe without Nyn she would never have thought to leave TR in first place), caring for her during their adventures, fighting to free her in Falme, telling Eggy that she should no longer adress her as Wisdom, supporting her as an Amyrlin...Egwene has never left a meeting with Nyn being degraded, humiliated or psychiologically dominated or abused. Nyn has not hurt, but has helped Egwene in reaching her potential. In my opinion it stands in stark contrast to Egwene's position towards Nynaeve - Egwene is always trying to pull Nynaeve down, to dominate and control her. I don't like it and I don't find any of explanations provided here, however long or detailed, convincing in the slightest.

 

What did RJ want us to take out of this scene? I honestly don't know. Maybe it was a little similar to Mat-Tylin scenes, in that RJ wanted simply to show shifting balanve between the two women and ignored or did not notice some more dire implications of the scene, just as he probably wanted to make Mat-Tylin mostly comical and we know what some readers think about these scenes. But I don't understand or connect to most of Egwene's arc after the first books, so I don't really know what he wanted to achieve. I think he failed, whatever it was.

[damandred]

Got to agree with the points about how bad Egwene is treating Nynaeve.I quite like her myself but it is true that from TDR were she accuses nyn as being as bad a manipulater as Moiraine to ToM were she takes part in nyns testing (rare for an amyrlin). She seems to enjoy putting nyn down with (it seems to me)some malice.

[Kahsm]

Know what? I'm just going to +1 this, Kael, because for all I usually enjoy debating with you, despite our differences of opinion, I honestly don't see how your interpretation rings true in the text at all, I think its made perfectly clear that Egwene's primary purpose is to distract Nynaeve from her secret and cover her own ass-

Yes I AGREE with that. Why do you assume that because I'm arguing part of a thing, I must disagree with EVERY aspect. I have said a thousand times now, I agree she was covering herself from being found out. She did that, as her own words say, by talking quickly and not letting Nynaeve talk. That is in her own PoV and therefore IS TRUE. Why would she lie to herself alone in her tent in her own mind?

 

beforehand, she shows no indication of planning to educate Nyn and Elayne in the dangers of TAR, its just what crops up in her head when she's trying her distracting.

She just entered the room! Just because she needed to speak quickly does not invalidate what she says, particularly when she says later on that it was something that needed to be said in her own PoV.

 

But maybe you'll come part way to my side, lets say she didn't plan on chiding Nynaeve, but she started on that topic just to keep nynaeve from continuing with her line of questioning. You'd agree with that right? Ok. But as I said, from Egwene's PoV we know she DOES indeed feel that way, even IF we're assuming she wasn't planning to say anything until she was almost cought right? So once Egwene started on that topic (to hide her lie) she would likely continue until she was done wouldn't she? So could you agree that while the topic was not originally planned, the nightmare itself (which is where 99% of my contention is) was not specifically part of the 'coverup' but just a continuation of somethign she started as a coverup. Since we know Nynaeve had already dropped the questioning before the nightmare started?

 

I think some even on your 'side' might agree to that, even if Aiel Blademaster wants to believe Egwene is the next Semirhage. Then, I may open it up to 'interpretation'. Because Egwene and Nynaeve argue -- a lot. That is a fact. I believe Egwene would very much take an opportunity to lecture Nynaeve when she thought she was in the right, whether she was caught out or not. We know Egwene tried yelling the way she usually would but couldn't, likely because of her embarrassment, so that suggests it was going to be a normal blowup like they've had many times before. The only real difference was that she wouldn't let Nynaeve speak.

 

Despite the fact that the argument that "Egwene is a wonderful girl who's just trying to keep her friend safe and just happens to keep her secret and enjoy it immensely is just a happy aside for her" kind of annoys me given my view of the text, I don't say "You're an idiot who is reading the book totally wrong. You're not allowed your opinion because there is other text that obviously discredits your opinion" (and I do believe this is the case with your opinion, to be blunt), because that would be rude and condescending. People read the text differently to you (even others who like Egwene), and we obviously don't agree with other interpretations of the text. Well, hi, if we all thought the same, we'd all either love or hate Egwene. But please, don't tell me I'm not entitled to my opinion when I've read this passage exhaustively. Thank you.

Fine, you're entitled to it, I apologize for that. But it's still wrong. As shown by every line of text in the books. Please show me where it says what you claim it says. Aiel Blademaster hasn't done it, so maybe you can. We have argued things that allow for interpretations, and that has been fun. This also allows for interpretation, but unfortunately not in the way you guys seem claim. The nightmare, specifically, has _nothing_ to do with hiding her 'lie'. Nothing. There is nothing in the text that link them together. Nothing. that is a fact, there is no disputing that. Nynaeve had dropped the question long before.

 

Is no use trying to explain this to you. You just try to change anything to suit your own perception of the thing.

I don't change anything. I use exact quotes that are unaltered. You're the one who posts interpretations and hyperbolies of what actually happened then use those to justify your ourtrageous opinion. At least Himiko has backed away from your stance on Egwene's sadistic nature.

 

Once she punishes Nynaeve to teach her the dangers of TaR, while she's doing the same thing she did without understanding all the dangers.

Again, you can understand the dangers and still get caught in them. I understand how guns work, I can still get shot by them, I'm just better equipped to avoid it, doesn't mean it will always work.

 

She accuses Nynaeve of lying to her while trying to do the same thing. You can use cover up if you don't like lying, but Nynaeve didn't actually lied herself. She just didn't told her everything.

WHAT?! She didn't ACCUSE Nynaeve of lying to her. Nynaeve confessed because she felt guilty and the Egwene shrugged it off not caring until Nynaeve pushed the matter. What books are you reading?!

 

Let's make it simple. Egwene is breaking the promises to the WO by being alone in TaR.

True. I agree

 

Nynaeve sees her and asks her if she's allowed to be alone there. Egwene wants to cover up her mistake and tries to do that by 'explaining' to Nynaeve that is dangerous to be in TaR alone.

How does explaining something stop her from asking questions? It does not. You know what does? talking quickly so that the other person cannot get a word in. Which happens to be exactly what Egwene says she does in her own PoV. Funny that, how the book tells you what happened eh? The topic is irrelevant, therefore the nightmare was irrelevant.

 

Later she is attacked by a Forsaken and she doesn't even realize it, because she thinks she can handle things in TaR.

Later on she'll go even further and enter Gawyn's dream and can't get out. So she doesn't know everything herself, but she thinks that only everybody else has to be careful, because she has everything under control and nothing can hurt her in a dream.

Yeah, she takes risks, that doesn't mean she didn't understand the risk. Or maybe she is hypocritical, that doesn't make her sadistic as you claim. I love how your proofs of 1 bad thing are by showing OTHER bad things. I think that's the definition of being biased.

 

Egwene is trying to explain to Nynaeve the dangers of smoking.

She traps Nynaeve in a sealed glass room and drains the air out.

While Nynaeve struggles for breath and begs her friends to let her go, Egwene is simply explaining to her all the problems she'll have if she continues to smoke, stopping from time to time to smoke her own cigar.

Well this is just silly, since being trapped in a glass room and having all the air drawn out is not a danger of smoking. Maybe if Egwene gave her advanced lung cancer to show her what it was like, then took it away. Though I'd bet lots of people who have smoking parents/spouses would like to be able to do that if it would finally get the point across. I know I would like to show my Dad what could happen if he keeps smoking. He should stop, it's dangerous and stupid. So maybe I do agree with that analogy.

[Guest PiotrekS]

beforehand, she shows no indication of planning to educate Nyn and Elayne in the dangers of TAR, its just what crops up in her head when she's trying her distracting.

She just entered the room! Just because she needed to speak quickly does not invalidate what she says, particularly when she says later on that it was something that needed to be said in her own PoV.

 

But maybe you'll come part way to my side, lets say she didn't plan on chiding Nynaeve, but she started on that topic just to keep nynaeve from continuing with her line of questioning. You'd agree with that right? Ok. But as I said, from Egwene's PoV we know she DOES indeed feel that way, even IF we're assuming she wasn't planning to say anything until she was almost cought right? So once Egwene started on that topic (to hide her lie) she would likely continue until she was done wouldn't she? So could you agree that while the topic was not originally planned, the nightmare itself (which is where 99% of my contention is) was not specifically part of the 'coverup' but just a continuation of somethign she started as a coverup. Since we know Nynaeve had already dropped the questioning before the nightmare started?

 

I think some even on your 'side' might agree to that, even if Aiel Blademaster wants to believe Egwene is the next Semirhage. Then, I may open it up to 'interpretation'. Because Egwene and Nynaeve argue -- a lot. That is a fact. I believe Egwene would very much take an opportunity to lecture Nynaeve when she thought she was in the right, whether she was caught out or not. We know Egwene tried yelling the way she usually would but couldn't, likely because of her embarrassment, so that suggests it was going to be a normal blowup like they've had many times before. The only real difference was that she wouldn't let Nynaeve speak.

 

Replying specifically to the bolded part, I don't think Egwene contemplated creating a nightmare in first place, when she was frantically trying to get Nynaeve off the topic of Wise Ones and Egwene's visit in TAR, but it just popped in her head during the scene. She was doing everything she could to keep Nynaeve on the defensive, unable to speak and focus on the question she had asked, so speaking really fast was only taking her so far, right? She wouldn't be able to speak over Nynaeve forever and she could not know if Nyn would not return to the topic the moment Eggy stops talking, so she had to take Nynaeve's mind off that topic completely.

 

I think that "talking quickly and not letting Nynaeve speak" was only a first, instinctive reaction of Egwene who was bidding her time, trying to think about some way to avoid difficult questions - and she found a way by giving Nyn a "lesson" of TAR, so severe and shocking that Nyn would not be able to go back to the previous conversation because of the shock. Additionally it would help Egwene to maintain her newfound "upper hand" in dealings with Nynaeve and make a lasting impression - and that would require quite a strong experience for Nynaeve, therefore - the nightmare.

 

I don't think that Egwene enjoyed hurting Nynaeve - although we have no traces in the text that she regretted it either. I think that she enjoyed having power over her, being able to dominate and manipulate her emotions, "trying out" various techniques and thinking to herself about those which turned out to be most effective - that is, most succesful in destroying Nynaeve's confidence, self-esteem and independence. Egwene found a "key" to Nynaeve, which meant she would not have to endure discussions or disputes with her, her "friend" would not dare oppose her anymore, since it became so easy to just browbeat her into submission.

 

I don't get how you can like it. Egwene has many positive features, but her attitude to Nyn is so abhorrent that I can't fathom seeing it as a right thing to do.

[Suttree]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

I don't really disagree with your general points here, but I'm curious as to where we actually see the bolded part happen? We see Nynaeve act superior and like she knows best. I don't recall her actually ever bullying Egwene. I also don't remember any evidence that it happened prior to the books. I would imagine that she had to put up with Nynaeve's hard-headedness and air of superiority as her apprentice, but there is no reason to believe she was ever bullied.

 

While I don't think it is a bad thing, or mean spirited in the slightest, Nynaeve is the original bully in the story and this goes without saying. Constantly loosing her temper and threatening to box ears if people aren't doing what she thinks is correct.

 

With Egwene all the way back starting in that "ravens" passage when the original wisdom was disappointed in her healing and she took it out on Eggy who thinks she doesn't have to "hop" for her like she would the wisdom, but decides she better after the way Nyn is glaring at her. There is a reason everyone "steps lightly" around her due to her legendary anger and that includes Egwene. There are numerous other examples from the early books when Nyn is still playing the wisdom and bullies all TRs folk attempting to force them to do as she wishes.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

I don't really disagree with your general points here, but I'm curious as to where we actually see the bolded part happen? We see Nynaeve act superior and like she knows best. I don't recall her actually ever bullying Egwene. I also don't remember any evidence that it happened prior to the books. I would imagine that she had to put up with Nynaeve's hard-headedness and air of superiority as her apprentice, but there is no reason to believe she was ever bullied.

 

While I don't think it is a bad thing, or mean spirited in the slightest, Nynaeve is the original bully in the story and this goes without saying. Constantly loosing her temper and threatening to box ears if people aren't doing what she thinks is correct.

 

With Egwene all the way back starting in that "ravens" passage when the original wisdom was disappointed in her healing and she took it out on Eggy who thinks she doesn't have to "hop" for her like she would the wisdom, but decides she better after the way Nyn is glaring at her. There is a reason everyone "steps lightly" around her due to her legendary anger and that includes Egwene. There are numerous other examples from the early books when Nyn is still playing the wisdom and bullies all TRs folk attempting to force them to do as she wishes.

Well, yes and no. Her attempts at bullying are pretty innocent and even Rand and the boys can stand up to her in EotW and she talks to them rather than trying to beat them into the ground (she says to Rand something like "You have grown" etc.).

 

The point for me is this - does Nynaeve help the people, does she make them get better, stronger, more sure of themselves? I think yes, despite her anger issues nobody was seriously hurt by her and many were helped. While Egwene's method as applied to Nyn- much more cold, sophisticated, efficient - could leave Nynaeve seriously traumatised for the rest of her life. It is a world of a difference for me.

[Suttree]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

I don't really disagree with your general points here, but I'm curious as to where we actually see the bolded part happen? We see Nynaeve act superior and like she knows best. I don't recall her actually ever bullying Egwene. I also don't remember any evidence that it happened prior to the books. I would imagine that she had to put up with Nynaeve's hard-headedness and air of superiority as her apprentice, but there is no reason to believe she was ever bullied.

 

While I don't think it is a bad thing, or mean spirited in the slightest, Nynaeve is the original bully in the story and this goes without saying. Constantly loosing her temper and threatening to box ears if people aren't doing what she thinks is correct.

 

With Egwene all the way back starting in that "ravens" passage when the original wisdom was disappointed in her healing and she took it out on Eggy who thinks she doesn't have to "hop" for her like she would the wisdom, but decides she better after the way Nyn is glaring at her. There is a reason everyone "steps lightly" around her due to her legendary anger and that includes Egwene. There are numerous other examples from the early books when Nyn is still playing the wisdom and bullies all TRs folk attempting to force them to do as she wishes.

Well, yes and no. Her attempts at bullying are pretty innocent and even Rand and the boys can stand up to her in EotW and she talks to them rather than trying to beat them into the ground (she says to Rand something like "You have grown" etc.).

 

The point for me is this - does Nynaeve help the people, does she make them get better, stronger, more sure of themselves? I think yes, despite her anger issues nobody was seriously hurt by her and many were helped. While Egwene's method as applied to Nyn- much more cold, sophisticated, efficient - could leave Nynaeve seriously traumatised for the rest of her life. It is a world of a difference for me.

 

I agree with most of what you say but it doesn't change at all the "coming of age" scenario I presented for Eggy. Nynaeve expected her to do as she wished in the early books and was very heavy handed in how she enforced it. The Tar event was RJ attempting to show Eggy coming into her own and changing the balance of power. People were saying Nyn was never a bully and that is simply not true.

 

Also while it doesn't excuse her actions we have seen zero traumatic effects on Nyn and she herself isn't upset towards Eggy in the slightest. I believe someone earlier talk about fans projecting their rationale on Egwene in relation to the seals, are not people doing the very same in being indignant for Nyn when she herself has no issue with the situation? To be clear i think what she did was wrong, just stating what has happened in the story. It could very well be a Mat/Tylin situation where RJ didn't necessarily think the repercussions all the way through.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I would like to ask what does everyone think RJ wanted us to take away from that scene in Tar?

 

We have a couple ridiculous claims put forth in that Eggy was only trying to show the dangers of Tar to Nyn and on the other side of the spectrum that she enjoys torturing her friend for sadistic pleasure. I think he was trying to show how far she is willing to go to continue learning and also it was a coming of age moment in standing up to a women that had bullied her for many years. What does everyone else think RJ was trying to present here?

 

I don't really disagree with your general points here, but I'm curious as to where we actually see the bolded part happen? We see Nynaeve act superior and like she knows best. I don't recall her actually ever bullying Egwene. I also don't remember any evidence that it happened prior to the books. I would imagine that she had to put up with Nynaeve's hard-headedness and air of superiority as her apprentice, but there is no reason to believe she was ever bullied.

 

While I don't think it is a bad thing, or mean spirited in the slightest, Nynaeve is the original bully in the story and this goes without saying. Constantly loosing her temper and threatening to box ears if people aren't doing what she thinks is correct.

 

With Egwene all the way back starting in that "ravens" passage when the original wisdom was disappointed in her healing and she took it out on Eggy who thinks she doesn't have to "hop" for her like she would the wisdom, but decides she better after the way Nyn is glaring at her. There is a reason everyone "steps lightly" around her due to her legendary anger and that includes Egwene. There are numerous other examples from the early books when Nyn is still playing the wisdom and bullies all TRs folk attempting to force them to do as she wishes.

Well, yes and no. Her attempts at bullying are pretty innocent and even Rand and the boys can stand up to her in EotW and she talks to them rather than trying to beat them into the ground (she says to Rand something like "You have grown" etc.).

 

The point for me is this - does Nynaeve help the people, does she make them get better, stronger, more sure of themselves? I think yes, despite her anger issues nobody was seriously hurt by her and many were helped. While Egwene's method as applied to Nyn- much more cold, sophisticated, efficient - could leave Nynaeve seriously traumatised for the rest of her life. It is a world of a difference for me.

 

I agree with most of what you say but it doesn't change at all the "coming of age" scenario I presented for Eggy. Nynaeve expected her to do as she wished in the early books and was very heavy handed in how she enforced it. The Tar event was RJ attempting to show Eggy coming into her own and changing the balance of power. People were saying Nyn was never a bully and that is simply not true.

 

Also while it doesn't excuse her actions we have seen zero traumatic effects on Nyn and she herself isn't upset towards Eggy in the slightest. I believe someone earlier talk about fans projecting their rationale on Egwene in relation to the seals, are not people doing the very same in being indignant for Nyn when she herself has no issue with the situation? To be clear i think what she did was wrong, just stating what has happened in the story. It could very well be a Mat/Tylin situation where RJ didn't necessarily think the repercussions all the way through.

 

Shift in the balance of power was definitely the gist of the scene and I think that some other implications - e.g. the dilemma whether Egwene's method was acceptable - were somehow ignored by RJ. It is always the danger where the characters play all these power games, as Mat-Tylin shows. It is after all just another example of "turning the tables"...

 

Zero effect on Nynaeve can be explained either by her inner strenth, or -and that's better because it is consistent with what we said above - RJ did not contemplate the question of any traumatic effects so there were none in his story. After all, Mat suffered no traumatic effects after his times with Tylin as well.

[Elan Tedronai]

balance of power between egwene and nynaeve shifted in their TAR meeting in TOM. Not before that.

[MasterAblar]

balance of power between egwene and nynaeve shifted in their TAR meeting in TOM. Not before that.

 

Actually I would say that that was the moment when Nyneave accepted the shift in power. The actual shift in power really happened more in LoC, but Nyneave tried to pretend otherwise.

[damandred]

After so much debate its been astablished that Egwene was being a bit of a bitch for a few chapters in FoH.cool

[damandred]

O yes the power shift happened when Egwene got made Amyrlin she may of stood up and even got the better of nyn before then but I doubt she thought herself her superior.

[Suttree]

After so much debate its been astablished that Egwene was being a bit of a bitch for a few chapters in FoH.cool

 

HAHA...great call mate.

[Guest PiotrekS]

After so much debate its been astablished that Egwene was being a bit of a bitch for a few chapters in FoH.cool

 

HAHA...great call mate.

 

Hey, that's pretty constructive as far as Egwene debates go...

[Kahsm]

beforehand, she shows no indication of planning to educate Nyn and Elayne in the dangers of TAR, its just what crops up in her head when she's trying her distracting.

She just entered the room! Just because she needed to speak quickly does not invalidate what she says, particularly when she says later on that it was something that needed to be said in her own PoV.

 

But maybe you'll come part way to my side, lets say she didn't plan on chiding Nynaeve, but she started on that topic just to keep nynaeve from continuing with her line of questioning. You'd agree with that right? Ok. But as I said, from Egwene's PoV we know she DOES indeed feel that way, even IF we're assuming she wasn't planning to say anything until she was almost cought right? So once Egwene started on that topic (to hide her lie) she would likely continue until she was done wouldn't she? So could you agree that while the topic was not originally planned, the nightmare itself (which is where 99% of my contention is) was not specifically part of the 'coverup' but just a continuation of somethign she started as a coverup. Since we know Nynaeve had already dropped the questioning before the nightmare started?

 

I think some even on your 'side' might agree to that, even if Aiel Blademaster wants to believe Egwene is the next Semirhage. Then, I may open it up to 'interpretation'. Because Egwene and Nynaeve argue -- a lot. That is a fact. I believe Egwene would very much take an opportunity to lecture Nynaeve when she thought she was in the right, whether she was caught out or not. We know Egwene tried yelling the way she usually would but couldn't, likely because of her embarrassment, so that suggests it was going to be a normal blowup like they've had many times before. The only real difference was that she wouldn't let Nynaeve speak.

 

Replying specifically to the bolded part, I don't think Egwene contemplated creating a nightmare in first place, when she was frantically trying to get Nynaeve off the topic of Wise Ones and Egwene's visit in TAR, but it just popped in her head during the scene. She was doing everything she could to keep Nynaeve on the defensive, unable to speak and focus on the question she had asked, so speaking really fast was only taking her so far, right? She wouldn't be able to speak over Nynaeve forever and she could not know if Nyn would not return to the topic the moment Eggy stops talking, so she had to take Nynaeve's mind off that topic completely.

 

I think that "talking quickly and not letting Nynaeve speak" was only a first, instinctive reaction of Egwene who was bidding her time, trying to think about some way to avoid difficult questions - and she found a way by giving Nyn a "lesson" of TAR, so severe and shocking that Nyn would not be able to go back to the previous conversation because of the shock. Additionally it would help Egwene to maintain her newfound "upper hand" in dealings with Nynaeve and make a lasting impression - and that would require quite a strong experience for Nynaeve, therefore - the nightmare.

 

I don't think that Egwene enjoyed hurting Nynaeve - although we have no traces in the text that she regretted it either. I think that she enjoyed having power over her, being able to dominate and manipulate her emotions, "trying out" various techniques and thinking to herself about those which turned out to be most effective - that is, most succesful in destroying Nynaeve's confidence, self-esteem and independence. Egwene found a "key" to Nynaeve, which meant she would not have to endure discussions or disputes with her, her "friend" would not dare oppose her anymore, since it became so easy to just browbeat her into submission.

 

I don't get how you can like it. Egwene has many positive features, but her attitude to Nyn is so abhorrent that I can't fathom seeing it as a right thing to do.

 

Well, they're friends through the whole series so far. So you're saying Nynaeve is too stupid and weak to stand up for herself? Is it stockholm syndrome?

 

Nynaeve was not in "shock", right afterwards she still claimed she could have handled it herself, not the words of someone broken... And I love how you ASSUME she SHOULD have been in "shock" so obviously she must have been, when there is zero evidence. And you're also making the stretch that Egwene somehow thought Nynaeve would return to her original line of thought, that she had already left, and so she had to do more than just talk, because despite the fact just talking had already worked, according to you, Egwene thought she still needed to do more because Nynaeve would return to the original topic. All of that you somehow "know" without any textual evidence...

 

I'm betting you folks are not behavioural science PhDs, so maybe stick to what's in the text.

 

"All she could do was talk" - Egwene

 

All, meaning not including anything else (like nightmares). Good game.

[Xcorpyo001]

Once she punishes Nynaeve to teach her the dangers of TaR, while she's doing the same thing she did without understanding all the dangers.

Again, you can understand the dangers and still get caught in them. I understand how guns work, I can still get shot by them, I'm just better equipped to avoid it, doesn't mean it will always work.

Why didn't she played the 'nightmare scenario'(or talk, as you seem to call it) on Elayne, when they were alone in the Tower. After all, she's her friend as well, and she also should know painfully well the dangers.

 

She accuses Nynaeve of lying to her while trying to do the same thing. You can use cover up if you don't like lying, but Nynaeve didn't actually lied herself. She just didn't told her everything.

WHAT?! She didn't ACCUSE Nynaeve of lying to her. Nynaeve confessed because she felt guilty and the Egwene shrugged it off not caring until Nynaeve pushed the matter. What books are you reading?!

She shrugged it off?

The other woman ignored her interruption. “ . . . And you lie to yourself. Do you remember what you made me drink the last time I lied to you?” Suddenly a cup was in her hand, full of viscous sickly green liquid; it looked as if it had been scooped from a scummy stagnant pond. “The only time I ever lied to you. The memory of that taste was an effective discouragement. If you cannot tell the truth even to yourself . . . ”

 

Nynaeve took a step back before she could stop herself. Boiled catfern and powdered mavinsleaf; her tongue writhed at just the thought. “I did not really lie, actually.” Why was she making excuses? “I just didn’t tell the whole truth.” I am the Wisdom! I was the Wisdom; that ought to count for something still. “You cannot really think . . . ” Just tell her. You’re not the child here, and you certainly are not going to drink. “Egwene, I—” Egwene pushed the cup nearly under her nose; she could smell the acrid tang. “All right,” she said hastily. This can’t be happening! But she could not take her eyes off that brimming cup, and she could not stop the words tumbling out. “Sometimes I try to make things look better for myself than they were. Sometimes. But never anything important. I’ve never—lied—about anything important. Never, I swear. Only small things.” The cup vanished, and Nynaeve heaved a sigh of relief. Fool, fool woman! She couldn’t have made you drink it! What is wrong with you?

 

“What we have to decide,” Egwene said as if nothing at all had happened, “is who to tell. Moiraine certainly has to know, and Rand, but if everyone hears of it . . . The Aiel are peculiar, about Aes Sedai no less than anything else

 

-this is not shrugging it off. She tried to make her drink a vile concoction because she didn't reported everything to her about the forkroot(not a lie), while she was still trying to cover up her own lie.

She tells her to say nothing to the Aiel, hoping she'll also shut up about her 'excursions'.

And I also like the part about "the only time I lied to you", while trying to keep a secret from her.

And 'she said as nothing has happened' is also interesting. She never thinks about the 'nightmare incident' again, or is even worried about Nynaeve's wounds.

 

 

Let's make it simple. Egwene is breaking the promises to the WO by being alone in TaR.

True. I agree

Hmmm. I'm speechless. To bad you don't agree to the next line, which was also true, at least from my pov.

 

Nynaeve sees her and asks her if she's allowed to be alone there. Egwene wants to cover up her mistake and tries to do that by 'explaining' to Nynaeve that is dangerous to be in TaR alone.

How does explaining something stop her from asking questions? It does not. You know what does? talking quickly so that the other person cannot get a word in. Which happens to be exactly what Egwene says she does in her own PoV. Funny that, how the book tells you what happened eh? The topic is irrelevant, therefore the nightmare was irrelevant.

-hurting/scaring her friend is irrelevant to the topic. I see where we might have a problem. This is a point we will never agree on, so we might just move on.

-Which is what Egwene says she does.

But she seems to forget that the the 'nightmare scenario' was in the middle of that talk. And she also says a lot of things about Rand in her thoughts, about him being silly, crazy, to full of himself, about Aviendha being terrified by Rand(her misinterpretation of Avi's dreams, when she was spying honing her Dreamwalker skills on her). Are those things canon now because she thought about them?!?

 

Later she is attacked by a Forsaken and she doesn't even realize it, because she thinks she can handle things in TaR.

Later on she'll go even further and enter Gawyn's dream and can't get out. So she doesn't know everything herself, but she thinks that only everybody else has to be careful, because she has everything under control and nothing can hurt her in a dream.

Yeah, she takes risks, that doesn't mean she didn't understand the risk. Or maybe she is hypocritical, that doesn't make her sadistic as you claim. I love how your proofs of 1 bad thing are by showing OTHER bad things. I think that's the definition of being biased.

 

She doesn't know a Forsaken can trap her in some dreams. She doesn;t even knows someone tried it on her. So she doesn't understands the rules.

Why doesn't she teaches Elayne the dangers of TaR the same way she did to Nynaeve, with nightmares, wounds and all?!? She's also in danger in TaR. Or Elayne is as strong and knowledgeable as Egwene when being in TaR?

 

One requesto for you., Please show me one quote with her saying 'I learned X' while I was wondering in TaR, after the WO told me not to.

All her risk she takes are pointless.

She's not in TaR to hone her skills, she's there because the WO told her that she shouldn't go, and that she can't handle it alone.

 

Egwene is trying to explain to Nynaeve the dangers of smoking.

She traps Nynaeve in a sealed glass room and drains the air out.

While Nynaeve struggles for breath and begs her friends to let her go, Egwene is simply explaining to her all the problems she'll have if she continues to smoke, stopping from time to time to smoke her own cigar.

Well this is just silly, since being trapped in a glass room and having all the air drawn out is not a danger of smoking. Maybe if Egwene gave her advanced lung cancer to show her what it was like, then took it away. Though I'd bet lots of people who have smoking parents/spouses would like to be able to do that if it would finally get the point across. I know I would like to show my Dad what could happen if he keeps smoking. He should stop, it's dangerous and stupid. So maybe I do agree with that analogy.

 

People who are old or overweight or have other health issues, and also smoke, have a lot of problems.

I had a grandfather who was hooked up to an oxygen tank because his lungs were so messed up from smoking, he was unable to breath on his own. Hence the fighting for each breath analogy. I made it a glass room because the girls could see each other during the test, and the lack of air as a last stage of lung cancer. Sorry if I wasn't clearer.

[Guest PiotrekS]

beforehand, she shows no indication of planning to educate Nyn and Elayne in the dangers of TAR, its just what crops up in her head when she's trying her distracting.

She just entered the room! Just because she needed to speak quickly does not invalidate what she says, particularly when she says later on that it was something that needed to be said in her own PoV.

 

But maybe you'll come part way to my side, lets say she didn't plan on chiding Nynaeve, but she started on that topic just to keep nynaeve from continuing with her line of questioning. You'd agree with that right? Ok. But as I said, from Egwene's PoV we know she DOES indeed feel that way, even IF we're assuming she wasn't planning to say anything until she was almost cought right? So once Egwene started on that topic (to hide her lie) she would likely continue until she was done wouldn't she? So could you agree that while the topic was not originally planned, the nightmare itself (which is where 99% of my contention is) was not specifically part of the 'coverup' but just a continuation of somethign she started as a coverup. Since we know Nynaeve had already dropped the questioning before the nightmare started?

 

I think some even on your 'side' might agree to that, even if Aiel Blademaster wants to believe Egwene is the next Semirhage. Then, I may open it up to 'interpretation'. Because Egwene and Nynaeve argue -- a lot. That is a fact. I believe Egwene would very much take an opportunity to lecture Nynaeve when she thought she was in the right, whether she was caught out or not. We know Egwene tried yelling the way she usually would but couldn't, likely because of her embarrassment, so that suggests it was going to be a normal blowup like they've had many times before. The only real difference was that she wouldn't let Nynaeve speak.

 

Replying specifically to the bolded part, I don't think Egwene contemplated creating a nightmare in first place, when she was frantically trying to get Nynaeve off the topic of Wise Ones and Egwene's visit in TAR, but it just popped in her head during the scene. She was doing everything she could to keep Nynaeve on the defensive, unable to speak and focus on the question she had asked, so speaking really fast was only taking her so far, right? She wouldn't be able to speak over Nynaeve forever and she could not know if Nyn would not return to the topic the moment Eggy stops talking, so she had to take Nynaeve's mind off that topic completely.

 

I think that "talking quickly and not letting Nynaeve speak" was only a first, instinctive reaction of Egwene who was bidding her time, trying to think about some way to avoid difficult questions - and she found a way by giving Nyn a "lesson" of TAR, so severe and shocking that Nyn would not be able to go back to the previous conversation because of the shock. Additionally it would help Egwene to maintain her newfound "upper hand" in dealings with Nynaeve and make a lasting impression - and that would require quite a strong experience for Nynaeve, therefore - the nightmare.

 

I don't think that Egwene enjoyed hurting Nynaeve - although we have no traces in the text that she regretted it either. I think that she enjoyed having power over her, being able to dominate and manipulate her emotions, "trying out" various techniques and thinking to herself about those which turned out to be most effective - that is, most succesful in destroying Nynaeve's confidence, self-esteem and independence. Egwene found a "key" to Nynaeve, which meant she would not have to endure discussions or disputes with her, her "friend" would not dare oppose her anymore, since it became so easy to just browbeat her into submission.

 

I don't get how you can like it. Egwene has many positive features, but her attitude to Nyn is so abhorrent that I can't fathom seeing it as a right thing to do.

 

Well, they're friends through the whole series so far. So you're saying Nynaeve is too stupid and weak to stand up for herself? Is it stockholm syndrome?

 

I don't have my books with me at the moment, but I could provide several quotes to the effect that Nynaeve is now intimidated or maybe a little afraid of Egwene -e.g. she tries to avoid meeting with her again.

 

Nynaeve was not in "shock", right afterwards she still claimed she could have handled it herself, not the words of someone broken... And I love how you ASSUME she SHOULD have been in "shock" so obviously she must have been, when there is zero evidence. And you're also making the stretch that Egwene somehow thought Nynaeve would return to her original line of thought, that she had already left, and so she had to do more than just talk, because despite the fact just talking had already worked, according to you, Egwene thought she still needed to do more because Nynaeve would return to the original topic. All of that you somehow "know" without any textual evidence...

 

Oh my, I dared ASSUME that the victim of the attempted rape might have been in shock. I must be crazy or something.

 

I'm betting you folks are not behavioural science PhDs, so maybe stick to what's in the text.

 

Are you? Not that it matters, since we're discussing on strenth of our arguments alone and not our academic credentials, but I'm simply curious.