Merrilor: A Big, Fat Red Herring

[Terez]

I doubt that simply linking by saidin+saidar will be enough to Gate past the Spike's restrictions.

That's why Androl's special Talent is necessary. It was introduced for a reason.

[XXX]

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) .... and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Are you speaking from a military perspective? She didn't seem to have much of a problem doing it with Gareth Byrne...

 

Bryne wanted the AS to open gateways into the tower to re-take the tower...which was the smartest military strategy. Egwene refused.

[Suttree]

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) .... and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Are you speaking from a military perspective? She didn't seem to have much of a problem doing it with Gareth Byrne...

 

Bryne wanted the AS to open gateways into the tower to re-take the tower...which was the smartest military strategy. Egwene refused.

 

AS v AS fighting would have been catastrophic for the long term reunification of the WT. Not sure how it was the best strategy when it would have resulted in a Pyrrhic victory. This was the one time their was a disagreement and it's obvious why. In every other way she gave him free reign which if you recall was a prerequisite of him taking the job. There were numerous instances of her following his advice throughout that story arc. It's funny how people try to take this one instance, in which it's obvious why this plan wasn't truly an option, and spin it into Egwene having issues with letting Byrne run the army.

[randsc]

It's funny how people don't understand the difference between "to be under the advice of whomever leads the armies in TG" and "to be under the command of whomever leads the armies in TG."

 

The bottom line is that Egwene has already shown that she will act like most other rulers, placing her own interests and those of her faction ahead of those of others. This is not unnatural, and not even especially inappropriate. But it is true. Egwene is willing to sacrifice soldiers so that Aes Sedai don't die. There is in fact significant reason to doubt whether Egwene would agree to placing Aes Sedai under the command of a general she doesn't control, especially if that general was also commanding Seanchan.

 

BTW, this is not "Egwene hate" or "threadjacking." It is directly on point.

[Entreri]

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) .... and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Are you speaking from a military perspective? She didn't seem to have much of a problem doing it with Gareth Byrne...

 

Bryne wanted the AS to open gateways into the tower to re-take the tower...which was the smartest military strategy. Egwene refused.

 

AS v AS fighting would have been catastrophic for the long term reunification of the WT. Not sure how it was the best strategy when it would have resulted in a Pyrrhic victory. This was the one time their was a disagreement and it's obvious why. In every other way she gave him free reign which if you recall was a prerequisite of him taking the job. There were numerous instances of her following his advice throughout that story arc. It's funny how people try to take this one instance, in which it's obvious why this plan wasn't truly an option, and spin it into Egwene having issues with letting Byrne run the army.

 

What are you implying here? That the child Egwene knows military strategy better than Bryne?

[Suttree]

It's funny how people don't understand the difference between "to be under the advice of whomever leads the armies in TG" and "to be under the command of whomever leads the armies in TG."

 

The bottom line is that Egwene has already shown that she will act like most other rulers, placing her own interests and those of her faction ahead of those of others. This is not unnatural, and not even especially inappropriate. But it is true. Egwene is willing to sacrifice soldiers so that Aes Sedai don't die. There is in fact significant reason to doubt whether Egwene would agree to placing Aes Sedai under the command of a general she doesn't control, especially if that general was also commanding Seanchan.

 

BTW, this is not "Egwene hate" or "threadjacking." It is directly on point.

 

I get your point Randsc and I don't think anyone would confuse this for a threadjack. Was just pointing out the historical precedent for AS being part of "banners" under the command of Generals when it comes to facing the shadow.

[Luckers]

Ok enough about egwene. This thread is about merrilor being a red herring.

[FarShainMael]

But you never quote this, which happens later on in the same book:

 

"What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?.. If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no-one.."

 

 

Why should I quote everything all the time? It has nothing to do with my post, so why should I quote it? But we've been through this before. That's why Rand has to be balefired.

 

But it is relevant to your post, as it shows Moiraine changing her mind about the need to kill Rand to save him from the Shadow

No, it doesn't. It's foreshadowing for godsake, not a real determination on Moiraine's part to kill Rand. Just a willingness to do so if it's necessary.

 

As I pointed out, balefire probably won't help. There is a narrow window in which the DO can grab a dead soul, and balefire normally makes it impossible to hit that window - but since the DO's attention is totally focussed on Rand now, I'll bet It will indeed be able to grab his soul, balefire or no.

RJ said it's impossible unless the amount of balefire is really small. Which it won't be.

 

Source, please?

 

Edit: restored the bit you left out.

[Terez]

Source, please?

See the interview database. It's linked in my sig.

[Lacanos]

Source, please?

See the interview database. It's linked in my sig.

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There's your quote :)

[Ala Rubra]

I get your point Randsc and I don't think anyone would confuse this for a threadjack. Was just pointing out the historical precedent for AS being part of "banners" under the command of Generals when it comes to facing the shadow.

 

Actually, the quote you gave merely said that the armies were "accompanied" by Aes Sedai. Now, while that can mean that they were under the command of the General in question, it is by no means unquestionable.

[FarShainMael]

Source, please?

See the interview database. It's linked in my sig.

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

< snipped bit about having a new body ready - the DO may not want Rand reincarnated.. >

 

 

 

There's your quote :)

 

The part I have bolded is exactly my point about all the DO's attention being focussed on Rand. It is ready to snatch him; It does know that his soul can be secured. It is ready and awaiting just such an opportunity.

 

Of course, this may be just what Rand wants, as well..

[Hyronimus]

I find 95% of the posts here to be completely off base with regards to Rand.

 

He doesn't need any of the armies, or really any broad agreement. He may need some channelers. That's about it.

 

He has stated & inferred that it is time for him to remove himself from sovereign struggles and focus on his one battle - his fight with the Dark One. He's not going to be marshaling resources and directing activities at Merrilor towards nations and individual battles. He's going to declare his intentions, declare what he needs, and tell them they lead themselves.

 

The reason for Merrilor isn't for Rand - it's for the people. The only way to successfully battle a worldwide surge of Shadowspawn erupting through gateways is to NOT have standing armies in each place. But instead to disseminate precision strike forces from one central place as needed. He brought them altogether so that all the major resources of the land are in one spot.

 

He's created a headquarters for the world.

 

It doesn't matter what their priorities are - Tarmon Gai'don already started. Much like the Seanchan strike at the Tower showed each individual "leader" that they were woefully ill-equipped, Merrilor is going to teach each leader certain things.

 

And, I'm guessing that they are going to learn that Perrin needs to take his place as leader of them all (we've now seen several books of Perrin leading Asha'man, Aes Sedai, and multiple nations). Most likely Mat will be his lead general.

 

Perrin and Mat are going to leverage Merrilor to save the people of the world and provide Rand the space to fight for the world itself

 

Got to say i see this as closer to the truth, though i'm less sure about the Mat and Perrin part as a think mat could do great things with the seanchan army!

 

Another point to suport this and the idea that TFoM pact as a red herring is that once Avi gets to Rand the idea of the truce would be a lot less apealing. One of the reasons the peace failed in the future is that is was imposed by the Dragon alone (and this is off thread but these ter'angreal futures are less then reliable ).

 

The people of the world need more say. Whatever you may think of egwene her idea of linking the worlds channalers is progressive. Some how the seanchan will need to be included, so i believe that she will have more to do with making the true peace.

 

The aiel may have greater participation with her as fellow female channelers (this is a fairly random thought!)

 

i can see our original heroes meeting up and them racing of to their jobs, with rand moraine et al dealing with the bore above everything else.

[Lacanos]

Source, please?

See the interview database. It's linked in my sig.

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

< snipped bit about having a new body ready - the DO may not want Rand reincarnated.. >

 

 

 

There's your quote :)

 

The part I have bolded is exactly my point about all the DO's attention being focussed on Rand. It is ready to snatch him; It does know that his soul can be secured. It is ready and awaiting just such an opportunity.

 

Of course, this may be just what Rand wants, as well..

Not if he's killed with Balefire.

"Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small"

[FarShainMael]

I'm suggesting that, with the DO's attention focussed on Rand, the time constraints of balefire won't be a problem.

 

Still and all, the possibility / probability of Rand dying (by Alivia's assistance) and being grabbed by the DO presents us with a puzzle. I'll take this up on the other board.

[Lacanos]

I'm suggesting that, with the DO's attention focussed on Rand, the time constraints of balefire won't be a problem.

 

Still and all, the possibility / probability of Rand dying (by Alivia's assistance) and being grabbed by the DO presents us with a puzzle. I'll take this up on the other board.

 

The quote I've provided makes it quite clear that, unless the amount of balefire used is very small, the space to grab him is already gone before he can be snatched.

[FarShainMael]

We'll have to agree to differ on that one, for reasons I have already stated twice.

[TreeJoe]

Hyronimus - Thanks. I don't know why we've got 15 posts on here about Rand transmigration and whether or not balefire prevents it (Lets face it, Robert Jordan left that up to the author). Rather, lets talk Merrilor :)

 

I'm not convinced Mat is going to the lead the armies of the world as a general. I said that, but I don't necessarily beleive it. I do think he's going to be integral in specific major battles. Possibly subduing the Seanchan and taking their armies over. Possibly in re-taking Caemlyn (which, by the way, is going to fall to the shadow - we're going to be reading stories about the people of caemlyn being eaten or thrown into fires when they didn't submit to the Dark One).

 

However, I do think Mat is going to come to Merrilor. Mat, Perrin, and Rand need to be physically together for some integral part of the book (as foreshadowed by the "fireflies" vision of Min's). I can't picture, at this point, a better time for that than Merrilor.

 

I also wonder now if Rand, being who is now realizes he is, can't locate Mat via the visions they have and travel too him himself. Much like someone can locate someone else in T'A'R, I wonder if Rand can now locate Perrin and Mat whereever they might be.

 

I think the world's peoples/rulers are going to be at Merrilor and a new order will emerge. I also think the new order may involve Aes Sedai stepping down as functional leaders of nations - they can no longer be viewed as rulers, they must return to their roots as servants worthy of great honor.

 

Nonetheless, Merrilor is going to serve as a staging ground for the world.

 

Joe

 

P.s. Random note: if Machin Shin feasts on Trollocs in the Two Rivers, but trollocs were brought in in small groups to avoid Machin Shin and exited the ways into the mountains to stage, how is it that large numbers were brought to caemlyn (inside the city) without Machin Shin attacking them? They couldn't have staged in the city, and thousands would be needed to simultaneously emerge and attack the city.

 

I wonder if something has happened with Machin Shin.

[hazelkrs1]

P.s. Random note: if Machin Shin feasts on Trollocs in the Two Rivers, but trollocs were brought in in small groups to avoid Machin Shin and exited the ways into the mountains to stage, how is it that large numbers were brought to caemlyn (inside the city) without Machin Shin attacking them? They couldn't have staged in the city, and thousands would be needed to simultaneously emerge and attack the city.

 

I wonder if something has happened with Machin Shin.

 

Maybe the glow over the city Talmanes sees is just a giant rave and Caemlynn is a big red herring

[Lacanos]

We'll have to agree to differ on that one, for reasons I have already stated twice.

But the quote makes it quite clear that your reasons don't make sense....

 

Regardless though, I really don't see Rand being killed with Balefire regardless of the circumstances, making the discussion entirely hypothetical. Also offtopic.

[csarmi]

And why not? If he is not killed by Balefire, the Dark One might take his soul. He wouldn't be reborn that way or ripped from TAR.

[TreeJoe]

Assuming he doesn't buffer his soul from the dark one :)

[hazelkrs1]

I actually think there's a good possibility that we'll see a struggle for Rand's soul after he dies, more than likely before he even has the chance to go to TAR. Remember what Herid Fel told him and belief and order giving strength, it might be that one of the battles that must be won in the last book is Rand refusing the Dark One's hold/pull on him after he dies.

[Lacanos]

Plus, killing him with Balefire to avoid such a technicality will confuse the hell out of the more casual reader who hasn't read RJ's express explanation of balefire and probably believes it destroys a thread forever.

 

And it'd just be weird. I just have that feeling.

[Sharaman]

Maybe Merrilor will turn into one giant auction. The GLoD will grab Rand's soul and then ask "WHAT AM I BID?" with Perrin using Mjollnir to conduct proceedings.