Lanfear/Cyndane Strength

[Thor]

Lanfear wasn't trying to shield Rand, she was trying to sever him.

 

And Aviendha and Egwene didn't pass out.

 

I don't think Lanfear is as smart as you might think, sure she was a researcher, but where was her third name? Even Asmodean had a third name (because of his music, but still).

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lanfear wasn't trying to shield Rand, she was trying to sever him.

 

Since severing is harder than shielding, you just made cloglords' point stronger.

 

And Aviendha and Egwene didn't pass out.

 

No, as I said, they were screaming in pain.

 

But lets let Mr. Jordan say it:

 

Egwene threw her head back and wailed, eyes bulging, the world's agony shrieking from her mouth.

 

and Aviendha?

 

Aviendha rose on tiptoes, shuddering, howls chasing Egwene's as they rose higher and higher.

 

and when Rand stopped Lanfear?

 

Egwene collapsed in a motionless heap, Aviendha to hands and knees, head down and swaying

 

(quotes from The Fires of Heaven, chapter 52 Choices)

 

Neither of them said a word through the whole fight. So your point about them being able to talk about Lanfear's strength is ridiculous. Neither of them could pass along any information, no matter what they felt.

 

And you still haven't told me why Lanfear would pick up the angreal if it wasn't to increase her strength.

 

I don't think Lanfear is as smart as you might think, sure she was a researcher, but where was her third name?

 

She did not have one, her name was Mierin Eronaile. She had no third name because her work was not famous. Sort of like ... advanced theoretical astrophysics. Is the worlds leading astrophysicist a household name? No. Is that person famous? No. Does that mean he or she is not intelligent? Of course not.

 

The fact that she was employed as a researcher by the Collam Daan, the most prestigious research university of the Age of Legends, says that she was very intelligent

 

Lanfear is very intelligent. You're the one I'm questioning here.

[Thor]

I didn't say neither of them said a word through the fight, I said neither of them said a word. They didn't say anything afterwards either.

 

No, I don't care about these "hidden intelligence" and wasn't drilling the bore famous enough? She still didn't get a third name. If her researches before that were of any good, then she would have got her third name. If one has real ability, one will be recognized sooner or later, if one does not get recognition, maybe it's time to look inside oneself and be honest.

 

And no, severing is easier than shielding, just like killing is easier than capturing, ji e toh style.

Her strikes were "razor sharp" or something like that, doesn't sound like shielding to me.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If one has real ability, one will be recognized sooner or later, if one does not get recognition, maybe it's time to look inside oneself and be honest.

 

Getting a job at the most prestigious university in the world is recognition.

 

No, I don't care about these "hidden intelligence"

 

Just because you don't care, doesn't mean its not relevant.

 

I didn't say neither of them said a word through the fight, I said neither of them said a word.

 

You said:

And there are power gauges, Aviendha and Egwene were right there, they would have said that Lanfear suddenly got stronger instead of just "she was so strong" or something like that.

 

So, you said if Lanfear got stronger, they would have said something. What I was showing you is that no matter what Lanfear did, they couldn't say anything, so you can't use that as evidence that Lanfear didn't get stronger.

 

They didn't say anything afterwards either.

 

Actually, they did. Egwene said: "I feel ... I ... hurt" (The Fires of Heaven, chapter 53 Fading Words)

 

And no, severing is easier than shielding, just like killing is easier than capturing, ji e toh style.

 

Ji e toh has nothing to do with channeling. Severing someone is equivalent to shielding them plus cutting the connection permanently. How could it be easier than just a shield, when it is shielding the person plus something else?

[Thor]

Show me where it says that you need to first shield a person to sever him/her.

 

When I said they didn't say anything, I am saying that they didn't say anything about Lanfear becoming stronger, they only said she is so strong, geeze.

 

You say the fact that I don't care about "hidden intelligence" doesn't mean it don't matter. Well, unfortunately, I wasn't the only one who didn't care, none of the people in AoL cared either.

 

And with her beauty, you would expect Mierin to have a third name just on that alone, but she still didn't have it, maybe her research gave her negative points? :lol:

 

Even Mesaana got a third name (I stand corrected?), so I really don't think that Lanfear can be labelled "intelligent".

 

And getting into a famous university isn't that much either, it is really difficult without a doubt, but everyone who got in, got in. And thousands get in every year.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Even Mesaana got a third name (I stand corrected?), so I really don't think that Lanfear can be labelled "intelligent".

 

No, Mesaana was Saine Tarasind (BWB, page 67) and she got turned down for a research position at the Collam Daan (where Lanfear got accepted).

 

And getting into a famous university isn't that much either, it is really difficult without a doubt, but everyone who got in, got in. And thousands get in every year.

 

She didn't get in as a student, she got in as a researcher. Big difference.

 

When I said they didn't say anything, I am saying that they didn't say anything about Lanfear becoming stronger, they only said she is so strong, geeze.

 

I QUOTED what you said, and you used their silence as an argument that Lanfear didn't get stronger. What I showed you is that it is a false argument. And you STILL haven't given me any other reason for Lanfear to pick up the angreal. Because you can't.

 

Show me where it says that you need to first shield a person to sever him/her.

 

The very act implies shielding. You are CUTTING THEM OFF from the Source. Its not like, first you shield, then you sever. The act of severing them inherently includes cutting them off from the Source, which is shielding them.

 

You know what? I give up.

[Mr Ares]

And with her beauty, you would expect Mierin to have a third name just on that alone

Do they really give out third names just for being pretty? Is there a quote on that anywhere?

[Thor]

I didn't say neither of them said a word through the fight' date=' I said neither of them said a word.[/quote']

 

You said:

And there are power gauges, Aviendha and Egwene were right there, they would have said that Lanfear suddenly got stronger instead of just "she was so strong" or something like that.

 

So, you said if Lanfear got stronger, they would have said something. What I was showing you is that no matter what Lanfear did, they couldn't say anything, so you can't use that as evidence that Lanfear didn't get stronger.

 

They didn't say anything afterwards either.

 

Actually, they did. Egwene said: "I feel ... I ... hurt" (The Fires of Heaven, chapter 53 Fading Words)

 

 

That sums up everything. Nowhere did I say that they didn't say anything during the battle. I said they didn't say anything, and in my previous post I already clarified that I was refering to they didn't say anything about Lanfear's increasing in strength, not that they didn't say abosolutely anything.

 

You are the one with the understanding problem here.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Did everyone else understand what I was getting at? I can't deal with this anymore.

 

I give up.

[SBoydW]

Wow... Thor you blind ignorance drove rob to quiting.... that's pretty ignorant.... or dumb?

[cloglord]

Isn't there a rule about posting while drunk?

[SBoydW]

hmm... no but Thor I don't think is drunk... he just don' thaynk to gud

[Thor]

I don't understand this, either you are refusing to read what I write, or you see something beyond my words which I did not say. :?:

[SBoydW]

I don't understand this, either you are refusing to read what I write, or you see something beyond my words which I did not say.

 

No I read every word, and the stupidty of it gave me a headache. I just don't see how anyone short of being brain dead couldn't see that Moiraine set Lanfear up.

[DemandredFO]

Of course Moraine set Lanfear Up, Moraine saw it in the rings. It doesn't specifically saw that in words but reference SboydW.

[SBoydW]

I know tell that to Thor.

[Thor]

I thought about it again, and it's still no trap. Moiraine clearly saw Lanfear holding the angreal on her hand.

 

Now if she picked it up during the fight, Rand would have saw it. But Rand made no comment.

 

Lanfear must have obtained the angreal before the fight started.

 

This is no trap, this is ta varen effect.

[Mat is the Boss]

We don`t have Rands POV during most of the battle, so how does you know he didn`t comment it?

[Cybertrolloc]

We don`t have Rands POV during most of the battle' date=' so how does you know he didn`t comment it?[/quote']

What? It's all Rand PoV. He does space out for a little while after he chases Lanfear to the wagon with the Finn door, otherwise it's pretty straightforward (angst notwithstanding).

[Mat is the Boss]

The start is Rands POV, then it shifts to Moiraine. We don`t how long time there`s between the POV`s. Lanfear could easily have picked up the angreal in this time.

 

I believe Lanfear realized there was an angreal on the wagon as soon as she backed into it, and reached out through at this moment. This was when Rand lost the initiative. Later, in the period of time we don`t have any POV`s, Lanfear climbs onto the wagon and pick up the angreal.

[SBoydW]

This is no trap, this is ta varen effect.

 

RAND wouldn't have even been there except that Moiraine brought him there, because she knew he would be needed for her trap. Just before Lanfear blew up Kadere's wagon Rand was getting ready to leave.

 

From FoH Chapter 52 Choices, page 630 hardback 4th paragraph.

 

Suddenly she seemed to realizes what he was doing. Still blocking his blows easily as if she could see everyone, she danced backwards until her shoulders hit the wagon behind her. And she smiled like winter's heart. "You will die slowly, and beg me to let you love me beofre you die," she said.

 

[skipping down 2 paragraphs]

 

I'll make both of those trulls watch you beg," Lanfear said. "But should I make them watch you die first or you them?" When had she climbed into the open wagonbed? He had to watch her, watch for and hint that she was tiring, her concentration slipping. It was a vain hope. Standing beside the twisted ter'angreal, she looked down at him, a queen about to pass sentence, yet she could spare time for chill smiles at a dark ivory bracelet that she turned over and over in her fingers.

 

In between those paragraphs, after she bumped into the wagon and noticed the angreal, is when she began attacking not defending. At the end of my last quoted paragraph is the first time that she is described as having the angreal. She picked it up during the fight. Moiraine placed it there becuase she knew lanfear would pick it up and stand beside the doorway Ter'angreal.

 

Let's go to chapter 53 in the FoH page 637, the begining of Moiraines letter to Rand.

 

These words will fade within moments after this leaves your hands-a warining attuned to you- so becareful of it. That you are reading this means that events have fallen out at the docks as I hoped...

 

She knew what would happen. Set Lanfear up. SHE T-R-A-P-P-E-D Lanfear. Put everything in place to make the branch of her vision, that was favorable to Rand, come true.

 

Tell me what do you call it when you put into effect a chain of actions that toatally surprise another person and winds up in their defeat, death in this case. A T-R-A-P.

 

But I see that you just aren't going to see reason here so I think that I will go the way of the rob man and give up trying to show the light to the blind.

[Thor]

I see the reason for Moiraine's trap.

 

But the way events unfolded I just cannot credit it to her.

 

That passage you quoted still does not say that she picked up the angreal in between the fight. Unless the angreal was somewhere around her waist height or floating, Rand MUST have seen her bend down to get it, and seriously would have stopped her.

 

Also, amidst all the blows coming from Rand, how could Lanfear have enough time to pick up the angreal, especially when Rand with his angreal would be about 2 or 3 times stronger than she is?

 

Also, if Rand was already much stronger, how could Lanfear have any chance at all in blocking his strikes? And don't tell me it's experience, because regardless of your experience, when you're blocking, you're blocking and that is all abut strength.

[SBoydW]

Ok I don't give up.

 

That passage you quoted still does not say that she picked up the angreal in between the fight. Unless the angreal was somewhere around her waist height or floating, Rand MUST have seen her bend down to get it, and seriously would have stopped her.

 

Read the passages in between my quotes.

 

He stopped watching her because she suddenly began to try to shield him instead of trying to block his shield which indicates that she had enough of a power increase to turn the tides against him. which means she must have picked up the angreal. Rand didn't notice her do it because he was to busy trying not to be shielded and killed.

 

Also, amidst all the blows coming from Rand, how could Lanfear have enough time to pick up the angreal, especially when Rand with his angreal would be about 2 or 3 times stronger than she is?

 

Your nuts. At this point in the story it maybe elevated him above her slightly but definatley not 2-3X her strength.

 

Also, if Rand was already much stronger, how could Lanfear have any chance at all in blocking his strikes? And don't tell me it's experience, because regardless of your experience, when you're blocking, you're blocking and that is all abut strength.

 

She was blocking him easily I bleieve the quote sai. But in order to kill him like she wanted she was going to need the angreal, which Moiraine set out for her, to do it.

[Thor]

When both are without angreals, Rand is capable of beating Lanfear easily in terms of raw strength.

 

I estimate it to be something like 0.8:1 for Lanfear:Rand.

 

Now Rand's angreal is a bit weak, but we have seen that even weak angreals can double the strength. But let's just say that this angreal is really weak, and boosts the strength only by 60%.

 

So it becomes 0.8:1.6, Rand with angreal is double the strength of Lanfear without the angreal.

 

I just don't see anyway that Lanfear can still block the strikes from Rand when the difference in strength is that great.

 

Keep in mind that the innitial estimate of Lanfear's strength (80% of Rand's) may well be an overestimation.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The depth of your baseless assumptions astounds me Thor.

 

I estimate it to be something like 0.8:1 for Lanfear:Rand.

 

Your estimate has no bearing on reality.

 

Now Rand's angreal is a bit weak,

 

Where does it say that?

 

I just don't see anyway that Lanfear can still block the strikes from Rand when the difference in strength is that great.

 

Skill. I can block the strikes of a man who can bench press twice what I can, because I know how. Lanfear is very, very skilled, with hundreds of years of experience using the Power. Rand has, what, a year and a half? Lanfear is more skilled than Rand is.

 

Keep in mind that the innitial estimate of Lanfear's strength (80% of Rand's) may well be an overestimation.

 

How about I keep in mind that its an unreferenced, baseless assumption?

 

Moiraine wrote in her letter to Rand:

 

That you are reading this means that events have fallen out at the docks as I hoped...

 

Moiraine knew what was going to happen, because she planned for it to happen that way. When you plan for something to happen to someone, and do things in advance (like putting out the bracelet a day earlier, and taking Rand to the docks without giving a reason) its called a trap.

 

Now, if you really can, tell me these two things:

 

Why did Moiraine set the angreal bracelet out in advance, if not to trap Lanfear?

 

and

 

Why did Moiraine take Rand to the docks that morning, if not to be in position to trap Lanfear?