Hints of Our Age

[michael.clinton83]

long time lurker, first time poster :D

this topic of hints alluding to the era of the audience is one of the reasons i became interested in the series before i started reading (the other being friends with great taste)

just wanted to add that in a PoV from Alviarin when she is at the White Tower, it is mentioned that at one time, the tower had some device that allowed them to travel from floor to floor without the hassle of stairs. Elevators was my first thought.

 

iirc the White Tower was built after the breaking, and should elevators have existed before and made it through the breaking to be built into the tower, why wouldn't they still exist now?

 

Also, elevators exist in current times, they don't use the OP. They use electricity :)

[LeeM.Erickson]

She was talking about elevators. She was thinking about how she learned from Mesaana that in the AoL they had something called lifts that could take you from floor to floor. She's thinking about how much easier things would be if the Tower had them, she never implies the White Tower itself actually did.

[pointerksl]

Going along with the idea that Rand = Arthur from a post above, and I know this is not necessarily "our age" but it from our legends, Callandor, the SWORD that is only removable by the One who is worthy, lies in the STONE of Tear... Sword in the Stone anyone?

 

Also I don't know if this was mentioned either, but I remember one of the forsaken mentioned using "glowbulbs" instead of lanterns. Lightbulbs, of course.

[bbarrett90]

I think one obvious hint, that im surprised wasnt mentioned yet, is the Buddhist symbology in many many angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal. The little fat man, the choeden kal, etc. Another is the way that channelers embrace the source, which is essentially through meditation. The void, or the oneness, is a thoughtless meditative state allowing complete focus on the world around you.

 

Here's an interesting quote by Albert Einstein related to Buddhism, and possibly what our future needs to become a new AoL...

 

If there is any religion that could respond to the needs of modern science, it would be Buddhism.

 

Also, for anyone interested, i started a Similar Post to this, except more physics oriented. I'm a physics geek, so i try and draw parallels from the WoT and our current scientific understanding of the world, and unsurprisingly, they're everywhere. I was hoping I would get more people interested in the thread but only got one reply I've considered almost every aspect of the series, and nearly all of it is explainable with modern day physics principles. Our history also reflects what could be previous turnings of the wheel (Atlantis for instance.) Channeling the OP may not be as far-fetched as some people might think! (just dont look for the TP...)

[Agitel]

Going along with the idea that Rand = Arthur from a post above, and I know this is not necessarily "our age" but it from our legends, Callandor, the SWORD that is only removable by the One who is worthy, lies in the STONE of Tear... Sword in the Stone anyone?

 

Also I don't know if this was mentioned either, but I remember one of the forsaken mentioned using "glowbulbs" instead of lanterns. Lightbulbs, of course.

 

I thought this too, but they aren't. They're more advanced and don't seem to rely on a conventional power source.

[Alric]

Also, for anyone interested, i started a Similar Post to this, except more physics oriented. I'm a physics geek, so i try and draw parallels from the WoT and our current scientific understanding of the world, and unsurprisingly, they're everywhere. I was hoping I would get more people interested in the thread but only got one reply I've considered almost every aspect of the series, and nearly all of it is explainable with modern day physics principles. Our history also reflects what could be previous turnings of the wheel (Atlantis for instance.) Channeling the OP may not be as far-fetched as some people might think! (just dont look for the TP...)

RJ certainly draws on elements from physics, so that is a real parallel. But I can't see that he draws much on some of the more "creative" things you quoted (ie bogus quantum physic a la Chopra etc). As with most of RJ's worldbuilding, it is based on things that are part of our myths and legends already (some of them from sci-fi). RJ's background in physics IMO just makes him less likely to screw up the logics of things like Waygates, Balefire etc. Compared to many other works of fantasy/sci-fi, these things make "sense" in WoT. Some of the things in the link from your other posts, while fun to speculate about in fiction, are not science, but a hodgepodge of pseudo-science.

 

 

[Alric]

I think one obvious hint, that im surprised wasnt mentioned yet, is the Buddhist symbology in many many angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal. The little fat man, the choeden kal, etc. Another is the way that channelers embrace the source, which is essentially through meditation. The void, or the oneness, is a thoughtless meditative state allowing complete focus on the world around you.

There are lots of Buddhism references, and also Hinduism (the Wheel itself). In fact, Buddha is mentioned by something resembling his real name as a legend who was meditating sitting by Avendelsaora. 

[finnland]

Forgive the non-sequitur, but I'm just re-reading book 3 and find it rather humorous that Be'lal uses the name of "High Lord Samon" in Tear. Pronunciations are sometimes non-intuitive, but given the location and culture of Tear, I've always pronounced this essentially as "High Lord Salmon." Fish guts...

[2RiversFan]

Me too, Finnland. I've always thought RJ had a private chuckle when he came up with that name. Throw in Suain's and other Tairens using "Fish Guts" as a profanity, and I'm pretty sure it was intentional despite leaving it subtly hidden.

[bbarrett90]

Also, for anyone interested, i started a Similar Post to this, except more physics oriented. I'm a physics geek, so i try and draw parallels from the WoT and our current scientific understanding of the world, and unsurprisingly, they're everywhere. I was hoping I would get more people interested in the thread but only got one reply I've considered almost every aspect of the series, and nearly all of it is explainable with modern day physics principles. Our history also reflects what could be previous turnings of the wheel (Atlantis for instance.) Channeling the OP may not be as far-fetched as some people might think! (just dont look for the TP...)

RJ certainly draws on elements from physics, so that is a real parallel. But I can't see that he draws much on some of the more "creative" things you quoted (ie bogus quantum physic a la Chopra etc). As with most of RJ's worldbuilding, it is based on things that are part of our myths and legends already (some of them from sci-fi). RJ's background in physics IMO just makes him less likely to screw up the logics of things like Waygates, Balefire etc. Compared to many other works of fantasy/sci-fi, these things make "sense" in WoT. Some of the things in the link from your other posts, while fun to speculate about in fiction, are not science, but a hodgepodge of pseudo-science.

 

I think pseudo-science is the wrong term to use. Much of what i talked about is pretty well understood. When i think of pseudo-science, i think of economics, or philosophy or, dare i say it, politics. Robert Jordan began writing the series in 1990, back then, everything he did was based off his own ideas and interpretations of the world. There were no theories in physics that could back up what he talked about. An exception being the multiverse theory, which at the time was ridiculed as being outrageous. Now, breakthroughs in our understanding and perception of reality are beginning to shed light on much of what Jordan wrote about. Ideas that were once seen as fantastical, could now be given serious consideration. These are not areas of pseudo-science, they are the beginning of a revolution in the way of human understanding.

 

He doesnt draw on some of the creative things i quoted, yet these things can be used to help explain some of what happens in the book. A simple example is channeling. If our body is a quantum computer (this possibility is explained in the article i linked in my other topic), that means we have the ability to change the quantum states of atoms in our body. We theoretically do this subconsciously all the time. If we could control that, then we could influence a cell at the edge of our body to change the state of the atom next to it, which could change the one next to that, and so on down the line until you've formed a thread. Many threads would form a weave. preparing a weave is simply visualizing the connections of all the threads, and then drawing on the power to pull them all together. Drawing on the power comes from an ability our souls have because they actually exist in an other dimensional realm (the pattern) and can channel some of the power connecting them to the pattern to the brain, and extend it out through the body. This ability is only usable when the body is one with the soul, hence the term "oneness" is used.

 

also, quantum mechanics is a theoretical way to explain waygates, and robert jordan even touches on it a little bit. When rand is explaining to egwene about how he makes one, he says he makes the place he's trying to go the same as where he is. That right there is quantum entanglement in a nutshell.

 

Sorry for the long posts, this is the kind of discussion i was hoping for, and i dont mean to hijack the thread for my own purposes. If it doesnt matter we can keep the conversation here, but i bet some people would prefer it was moved to the one i started. I've given a lot of thought to this, and could talk about it for hours, criticize as hard as you want, that just makes it more of a challenge for me to explain.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Forgive the non-sequitur, but I'm just re-reading book 3 and find it rather humorous that Be'lal uses the name of "High Lord Samon" in Tear. Pronunciations are sometimes non-intuitive, but given the location and culture of Tear, I've always pronounced this essentially as "High Lord Salmon." Fish guts...

 

Never thought of that...but probably because I always pronounced it as "Say-mon" and not "Sammon/salmon"

[Alric]

I think pseudo-science is the wrong term to use. Much of what i talked about is pretty well understood.

 

True, most of what you've written does indeed relate to physics and WoT, I have no problem with that. RJ did venture in the outer limits of what we know (and possibly might never know), and I suspect on purpose, after all this is a work of fiction. Trying to explain the One Power and the Pattern with what we know of physics today is a useless exercise. He simply has an advantage over many other authors because of his background in physics, which makes him able to make a system that more coherent and logical than the average fantasy novel. But that doesn't mean it is any closer to reality. See the difference?

 

The articles you quoted however were filled with so many far out claims that whatever was interesting there unfortunately got lost.

 

Quantum physics, while an interesting field, is also one of the most misunderstood areas of science. I would venture as far as saying that by far most of what is written about it is plain bogus. It is misused by the "New Age" movement, it is misused by a huge number of "alternative" therapists, philosophers, "doctors" etc. The media is also guilty, most of what we see about it is quacks wanting to sell us quackery that claims some beneficial effect by proxy of "quantum" energy/mechanics/whatever. There is a good quote out there: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." Or to put it this way: Deepak Chopra is no physicist.

 

Aaaaand... to try to reign it in again.... I think we agree to some extent about how RJ draws on physics, but I would say that all he did was use his knowledge as something to build a fictional system on, while you seem to imply that he drew on something more. That "more" part raises some red flags with me because of the territory that comes with what you've quoted and seem to be hinting at. If your (quite interesting) thoughts about deconstructing channeling would have been presented as a philosophic exercise instead of claiming to be "quantum science", we would have been on the same page.  

[bbarrett90]

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/67119-all-you-physics-savvy-peole-out-there/page__gopid__2176137?do=findComment&comment=2176137

 

My response can be found there, it was getting pretty heavy so i figured now was as good a time as ever to move.

[felic]

the twins that signal the end of an age are called shivan the destroyer and calian the chooser who are shiva and kali from hinduism

[michellem]

Sory if this has been mentioned, I couldn't see it but I might have been blind.

 

In PoD, before the maidens beat up Rand, Min sees them playing a game called "Knife, paper, rock".

[LeeM.Erickson]

the twins that signal the end of an age are called shivan the destroyer and calian the chooser who are shiva and kali from hinduism

 

I wonder if there's a gleeman's tale about Illianer Jones shouting "YOU BETRAYED SHIVAN!"

[badumboom]

How about in TOM When Mat plays Yahtzee with Tom Rittle...pg 692 paperback