Can anyone stop Fain?

[Entreri]

According to Moraine, not even the entire White Tower could destroy Mashadar. Moraine said that if Mordeth escaped the world was doomed.

 

The Choden Khal was needed to completely cleanse Shadar Logoth.

 

Thus even a sa'angreal like Callandor would be insufficient for the task.

 

Even an army of gholam would die before Mashadar, since it can suck the life out of anything living and even infect the none living.

 

Fain now controls Mashadar. Fain easily kills an army of Trollocs and actually turns them into more powerful zombie versions using Mashadar.

 

Jordan has confirmed he is something entirely new.

 

 

What can even the new and improved Dragon do against Fain?

 

What can Moridin do against Fain?

 

If Shadar Haran is actually the Hand of Shai'tan, and not merely a Super Fade, then possibly it can fight Fain...annihilating each other?

[Durinax]

balefire can destroy anyone

[True Source Creator]

I'm sure Shai'tan can destroy Fain, but not the other way around.

[Entreri]

I'm sure Shai'tan can destroy Fain, but not the other way around.

 

Certainly. However, Shai'tan is still trapped and even with the Bore open in AoL, Shai'tan still did not manage to free himself in AoL...Thus Shai'tan Power and capabilities are very limited.

 

There is the Creator of course, but then he does not interfere, hence useless.

 

So what are we left with to stop Fain?

 

Balefire...one has to get sufficiently close to use it. With Mashadar (which regenerates and strike as fast as lightning) surrounding Fain for possibly miles...Not impossible of course but it will be very difficult and possibly a suicide mission.

 

It will be interesting to see how the author will handle Fain in AMOL.

 

 

Not that this will happen, but an interesting scenario:

Imagine if Mashadar consumes the entire world, what immense power it will have...how about if it leaks to other mirror worlds, then can anything short of the Creator stop it?

[True Source Creator]

I still believe that, in that scenario, if Mashadar consumed the entire world and mirror worlds, there would be no Dragon Reborn to reseal the Bore, so Shai'ton could still break free, and he could still kill Mashadar.

 

But yes, balefire seems the best option, albeit a hard one to perform. I do like the idea of Shaidar Haran and Fain duking it out, but I think Fain would still win there, even if Shaidar Haran is some Super Fade with the Dark One's tocuh in him.

[OptimusPrime]

Thus even a sa'angreal like Callandor would be insufficient for the task.

 

...

 

If Shadar Haran is actually the Hand of Shai'tan, and not merely a Super Fade, then possibly it can fight Fain...annihilating each other?

 

I disagree that Callandor cant do it. I have a theory that it can deliver weaves, and that if it came to it, it could be used to stab Shaidar and deliver a weave that severs the connection between it and the rest of the Dark One. I think it could do the same thing to Fain as well; stab him with it, do the same weave, and the connection between Fain and whatever he is connected to (Mashadar, Machin Sin, the zombie Trollocs, etc) would also be cut.

[Entreri]

I still believe that, in that scenario, if Mashadar consumed the entire world and mirror worlds, there would be no Dragon Reborn to reseal the Bore, so Shai'ton could still break free, and he could still kill Mashadar.

 

But yes, balefire seems the best option, albeit a hard one to perform. I do like the idea of Shaidar Haran and Fain duking it out, but I think Fain would still win there, even if Shaidar Haran is some Super Fade with the Dark One's tocuh in him.

 

Somebody will need to tackle Fain ASAP before he becomes completely unstoppable.

 

Shai'tan's taint was consumed by Mashadar in one city.

 

Mashadar would be endless, having infected countless worlds, killing Fain would be insufficient to stop Mashadar.

 

Mashadar could well evolve many times (having consumed quadrillions+ souls in countless worlds, possible become sentient) and so could this creature Fain/Mordeth abilities evolve many times before Shai'tan becomes free. Mashadar in SL could only consume souls, Fain using Mashadar can now turn Trollocs.

 

Fain may well supplant Shai'tan is that type of dark Wheel of Time ending.

[Entreri]

Thus even a sa'angreal like Callandor would be insufficient for the task.

 

...

 

If Shadar Haran is actually the Hand of Shai'tan, and not merely a Super Fade, then possibly it can fight Fain...annihilating each other?

 

I disagree that Callandor cant do it. I have a theory that it can deliver weaves, and that if it came to it, it could be used to stab Shaidar and deliver a weave that severs the connection between it and the rest of the Dark One. I think it could do the same thing to Fain as well; stab him with it, do the same weave, and the connection between Fain and whatever he is connected to (Mashadar, Machin Sin, the zombie Trollocs, etc) would also be cut.

 

Hmm...

 

How would Callandor top Mashadar from spreading? It is no longer contained in one city and consumes everything in sight, it is growing, and it regenerates and can apparently turn any size army of Shadowspawn to mere slaves of Fain.

 

I guess it will depends on how much Mashadar that Fain has thus far and when he is confronted. Waiting too long = world consumed, waiting much too long = worlds consumed.

[OptimusPrime]

Thus even a sa'angreal like Callandor would be insufficient for the task.

 

...

 

If Shadar Haran is actually the Hand of Shai'tan, and not merely a Super Fade, then possibly it can fight Fain...annihilating each other?

 

I disagree that Callandor cant do it. I have a theory that it can deliver weaves, and that if it came to it, it could be used to stab Shaidar and deliver a weave that severs the connection between it and the rest of the Dark One. I think it could do the same thing to Fain as well; stab him with it, do the same weave, and the connection between Fain and whatever he is connected to (Mashadar, Machin Sin, the zombie Trollocs, etc) would also be cut.

 

Hmm...

 

How would Callandor top Mashadar from spreading? It is no longer contained in one city and consumes everything in sight, it is growing, and it regenerates and can apparently turn any size army of Shadowspawn to mere slaves of Fain.

 

I guess it will depends on how much Mashadar that Fain has thus far and when he is confronted. Waiting too long = world consumed, waiting much too long = worlds consumed.

 

how to stop it spreading? Kill it.

[Entreri]

Thus even a sa'angreal like Callandor would be insufficient for the task.

 

...

 

If Shadar Haran is actually the Hand of Shai'tan, and not merely a Super Fade, then possibly it can fight Fain...annihilating each other?

 

I disagree that Callandor cant do it. I have a theory that it can deliver weaves, and that if it came to it, it could be used to stab Shaidar and deliver a weave that severs the connection between it and the rest of the Dark One. I think it could do the same thing to Fain as well; stab him with it, do the same weave, and the connection between Fain and whatever he is connected to (Mashadar, Machin Sin, the zombie Trollocs, etc) would also be cut.

 

Hmm...

 

How would Callandor top Mashadar from spreading? It is no longer contained in one city and consumes everything in sight, it is growing, and it regenerates and can apparently turn any size army of Shadowspawn to mere slaves of Fain.

 

I guess it will depends on how much Mashadar that Fain has thus far and when he is confronted. Waiting too long = world consumed, waiting much too long = worlds consumed.

 

how to stop it spreading? Kill it.

 

 

But if Mashadar is too vast, Callandor will be insufficient for the task. Mashadar at city size could not be destroyed by the entire White Tower, according to Moraine. Mashadar regenerates.

[Leyrann]

Talking about Mirror Worlds, most of them will also have a Dragon Reborn. Call them all to Randland (As I'll call the world of the books), and let them connect (is that the word) with the help of some women, and they could destroy Mashadar. 20 (or more) Dragon Reborns, some of the with Callandor, maybe even the Choedan Kal? You wouldn't even need Balefire.

[True Source Creator]

On Shai'ton destroying Mashadar:

 

If Mashadar exists in a world, then that world must be tied to the Wheel, right? In the WoT universe, all worlds would have to be tied to the same Wheel. So if Shai'ton broke free, even with Mashadar consuming mirror worlds, and Shai'ton destroyed the Wheel, wouldn't he also destroy Mashadar? Oh sure, Mashadar may be something not tied to the Wheel, but without the Wheel and with no worlds to thrive upon, what could Mashadar do, or be for that matter.

 

But I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen. I don't think Jordan had the balls to make Shai'ton destroy the Wheel of Time in the end. So if Mashadar is to be destroyed, there must be some other way. Or perhaps he gets thrown into the Bore and he and Shai'ton taint each other so that in another spinning of the Wheel, Shai'ton and Mashadar are one and the same, thus making it an even greater antithesis to the Light.

[Entreri]

On Shai'ton destroying Mashadar:

 

If Mashadar exists in a world, then that world must be tied to the Wheel, right? In the WoT universe, all worlds would have to be tied to the same Wheel. So if Shai'ton broke free, even with Mashadar consuming mirror worlds, and Shai'ton destroyed the Wheel, wouldn't he also destroy Mashadar? Oh sure, Mashadar may be something not tied to the Wheel, but without the Wheel and with no worlds to thrive upon, what could Mashadar do, or be for that matter.

 

But I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen. I don't think Jordan had the balls to make Shai'ton destroy the Wheel of Time in the end. So if Mashadar is to be destroyed, there must be some other way. Or perhaps he gets thrown into the Bore and he and Shai'ton taint each other so that in another spinning of the Wheel, Shai'ton and Mashadar are one and the same, thus making it an even greater antithesis to the Light.

 

You are right, destroying the Wheel would take care of Mashadar. Mashadar is still in the Pattern...unlike the Creator or Shai'tan.

 

Yeah, very very few authors would ever let the bad guys win. I would love to see an alternative reality ending with Shai'tan winning.

 

Definitely could happen that way....it will be very interesting to see how Fain is defeated in AMOL. Quite a few people speculated correctly how the Gholam would be defeated.

[Elan Tedronai]

fain will kill moridin accidently thinking he's rand.

 

 

2 possibilites.

 

fain dies by the hand of perrin. or dies by the rand whilst sealing up the bore like how the forsaken were 3000 years ago

[Kahsm]

Someone posted a theory, or it was possibly in the podcast, that Rand would use Fain as a buffer while he sealed the bore with Saidin and Saidar to avoid the backlash hitting them. Instead it would hit and likely destroy Fain. Similar to how he cleansed the taint with SL.

[Bluedust9]

Someone posted a theory, or it was possibly in the podcast, that Rand would use Fain as a buffer while he sealed the bore with Saidin and Saidar to avoid the backlash hitting them. Instead it would hit and likely destroy Fain. Similar to how he cleansed the taint with SL.

 

And similar to the wound in his side.

[Finnssss22]

fain will kill moridin accidently thinking he's rand.

 

 

2 possibilites.

 

fain dies by the hand of perrin. or dies by the rand whilst sealing up the bore like how the forsaken were 3000 years ago

 

I have absolutely no doubt that Perrin delivers the killing blow to Fain. Dane will come clean as to how Perrin's family actually died. Perrin intercepts Fain about to kill Rand and thereby saving him for the second time. Two birds with one Hammer

It would be pure, naked justice fitting in perfectly with Perrin's role and character.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Probably could do him up Gholam style, but clearly that's been done already ssooo... *shrug

[AquilaInfernus]

I thought RJ explained that Mashadar was tied to Fain, with Fain's death (and presumably the destruction of the dagger) it would be destroyed. I'm not sure where the vastness is coming from, I was under the impression it was due to the size of Shadar Logoth and the White Tower's problems stemmed from their inability to entirely destroy the city. The fog appeared far more targeted when it attacked the rebels, it is under the control of Fain now perhaps? The big difference now is that Fain is mobile, whereas the city was static.

 

I'm not entirely sure as to how the trollocs are enslaved, but I think it happens in a similar manner to Mat's dagger influenced transformation. Either way, a balefire assault on Fain will destroy it...

[Durinax]

yeah I dont get where people are getting the vastness of the Mashadar from. It wasnt even big enough to encompass the whole city, and thats with consuming a huge army of trollocs and other shadow stuff

[AegisArcana]

There are three possibilities that come to mind.

 

1. Find some way to trap Fain and Mashadar in a vacuole. There he would need the one power to get out and would be relatively harmless as vacuoles are bubbles of space and time outside of the pattern, which could rupture at any time, destroying anything inside it. These were studied in the Age of Legends.

I imagine the way to get Fain trapped in a vacuole would have him chasing Rand, Rand travels to the vacuole but leaves the gateway open, Fain and Mashadar follow, and then Rand opens another gateway behind himself to get back to Randland, closing it and leaving Fain and Mashadar in the vacuole.

 

2. Get Fain to go after Rand again and when Fain gets close enough, have Rand or someone else waiting in hiding use balefire on Fain.

 

3. Alter the weaves used to kill or suppress Shadow-spawn to kill Fain's type of evil. It should be possible. Anything that people can conceive of with the one power is most likely possible. It just takes study and research in order to determine how to change the weaves.

 

However, possibilities 1 and 2 require Rand luring Fain into a trap, which is highly unlikely knowing that usually meetings between Rand and Fain happen the other way around, with Fain trapping Rand. Possibility 3 may require proximity to Mashadar in order to study how to destroy it, so that may be the most dangerous of the three.

 

Nevertheless, if aberrations in Randland such as Mashadar can suck life away, shouldn't it be possible to make something that creates, exudes, or gives life source as well? Maybe some sort of ter'angreal that functioned as a life-source creator could be used to protect oneself in order to get close enough to Fain to use Balefire on him.

 

Any could work. It really depends on the dedication of the individual trying to kill Fain. That would be nice, if the hunter became the hunted.

[Levek]

I think it will be Mat to kill Fain due to his time spent with the dagger he may has some kind of immunity to it. I also think this because Mat has rarely metioned the dagger or missing it at all. But he does bring this up in one of the last two books can't remeber exactly where. The Perrin idea sounds good to but I think Perrin main foe will be slayer. The other idea I had was maybe Fain come for Rand when he is sealing the bore for good and Fain will somehow be sealed away as well for good. Outside of time itself or maybe stuck in a everlasting conflict with The DO inside the bore.

[Sharaman]

Fain is flat out vulnerable to channeling and to normal weapons. If a channeler or an archer gets the drop on him he's dead. Also he has no apparent ability in TAR. So one simple way would be to get close to him in TAR, Gate out, balefire him. Since he's in the Blight, this doesn't work but he'd still be vulnerable to a normal ambush carried out from cover.

 

Moiraine's views on the subject are subjective - she's quoting AS belief about Mashadar, etc, which is possibly misconceived. Both Rand and importantly, Moridin who knows a lot more than Moiraine, used balefire successfully. Rand also used a sword.

 

It's not clear whether the Mordeth part of the personality would survive Fain being balefired/ killed by arrows.

But given Moiraine's warnings to the boys, Mordeth has escaped Shadar Logoth before and since he's confined there in EotW, the implication is, he can't "stay escaped" and remain outside without a physical carrier such as Fain. Since SL has been destroyed, if Fain Dies, preferably with the dagger being balefired, Mashadar disappears.

[Finnssss22]

...and what about Perrin's hammer?

 

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if his hammer is capable of repelling/dissipating Mashadar and killing Fain.

 

Perrin's enhanced senses to keep from being fooled by Fain's illusions and his hammer to break through his defenses.

[OptimusPrime]

Thus even a sa'angreal like Callandor would be insufficient for the task.

 

...

 

If Shadar Haran is actually the Hand of Shai'tan, and not merely a Super Fade, then possibly it can fight Fain...annihilating each other?

 

I disagree that Callandor cant do it. I have a theory that it can deliver weaves, and that if it came to it, it could be used to stab Shaidar and deliver a weave that severs the connection between it and the rest of the Dark One. I think it could do the same thing to Fain as well; stab him with it, do the same weave, and the connection between Fain and whatever he is connected to (Mashadar, Machin Sin, the zombie Trollocs, etc) would also be cut.

 

Hmm...

 

How would Callandor top Mashadar from spreading? It is no longer contained in one city and consumes everything in sight, it is growing, and it regenerates and can apparently turn any size army of Shadowspawn to mere slaves of Fain.

 

I guess it will depends on how much Mashadar that Fain has thus far and when he is confronted. Waiting too long = world consumed, waiting much too long = worlds consumed.

 

how to stop it spreading? Kill it.

 

 

But if Mashadar is too vast, Callandor will be insufficient for the task. Mashadar at city size could not be destroyed by the entire White Tower, according to Moraine. Mashadar regenerates.

 

Yeah but does Moiraine know everything? We know balefire can hurt Mashadar, and we know Callandor can potenially do anything due to the lack of a buffer. I mean theres no way Callandors base strength is greater than the CK, and Rand could use the CK without any other angreal boosting him, so he can without a doubt go safely past the "safe" line with it, no problem. Plus Mashadar hasnt got that big yet, no need to look at worst case scenarios.