The White Tower is opressive!

[XXX]

Hey I give credit to Egwene too..she is the most ruthless, nakedly ambitious character in the entire series.

[Elan Tedronai]

Hey I give credit to Egwene too..she is the most ruthless, nakedly ambitious character in the entire series.

 

 

oh really. have you read chapter 14 of TOM?

[Kahsm]

Hopefully the Asha'man do not develop the same kind of arrogance.

 

One of the first things Asha'man did was make a bond to compel.... so strike 1 I guess.

 

Lan does not seem surprised she was capable of compelling him when Moir tells him she used the bond to make him go to Myrelle. So I believe Warder's know it's possible, and they sign up for it willingly. So you really can't blame the Aes Sedai for any of that. I would assume how much it's used depends on the Aes Sedai, but singing up to be a warder without knowing the Aes Sedai well enough seems pretty dumb. Can't just get a divorce =)

 

Obviously Rand wasn't willingly, but this thread is about the institution as a whole isn't it? And they've been bonding Warders for a long time.

[Durinax]

randsc, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is one of those cases where you're being deliberately. . . provocative. . . and i'll give us all a rest.

 

 

it's only bad when AS compels warders using their bonds. But when logain does it is a okay. what alanna did to rand is no different what logain and co did. randsc is just dilute version of XXX47. Anti aes sedai, anti egwene and anti anyone who does not follow the lord dragon willy nilly.

actually its completely different, the AS who got bonded went to try to destroy the men, so they used a method of eliminating the risk that didnt kill the AS. what happened to rand is way worse because he came in peace to talk to the AS, and in effect got mind jacked because he wanted to know what was happening with those people

[randsc]

randsc, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is one of those cases where you're being deliberately. . . provocative. . . and i'll give us all a rest.

 

 

it's only bad when AS compels warders using their bonds. But when logain does it is a okay. what alanna did to rand is no different what logain and co did. randsc is just dilute version of XXX47. Anti aes sedai, anti egwene and anti anyone who does not follow the lord dragon willy nilly.

 

Whatever, troll.

 

I've been clear that it is NOT ok for Logain, etal to bond Aes Sedai. They should have killed them, which they would have been perfectly justified in doing.

 

Rand's foolish softheartedness caused this problem.

[sleepinghour]

Lan does not seem surprised she was capable of compelling him when Moir tells him she used the bond to make him go to Myrelle. So I believe Warder's know it's possible, and they sign up for it willingly. So you really can't blame the Aes Sedai for any of that. I would assume how much it's used depends on the Aes Sedai, but singing up to be a warder without knowing the Aes Sedai well enough seems pretty dumb. Can't just get a divorce =)

Lan knew about the Compulsion aspect in TGH, but it wasn't mentioned in New Spring before Moiraine bonded him, so presumably he found out afterwards. In fact, we haven't seen it mentioned prior to any of the bondings in the series, or the Warder death rage/depression for that matter.

 

“Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another.” He stared at her, silent. “When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it.”

“Compelled,” he breathed softly, angrily. “Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that.”

 

One of the first things Asha'man did was make a bond to compel.... so strike 1 I guess.

They came up with the Warder bond as a way of staying connected with their wives, and that bond didn't include the "extra bit" (automatic Compulsion). That was something they discovered afterwards when they were experimenting with the bond.

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

I do think the Asha'man should have released those Aes Sedai as soon as possible, now that saidin's clean and the Aes Sedai probably wouldn't attack again. It never made any sense why Rand didn't just order them to release the Aes Sedai instead of giving Egwene an equal number of Asha'man, but I guess that would've interfered with the Black Tower storyline.

[David Selig]

Logain started a huge war which had thousands of casualties and had shown zero remorse for that (far worse thing than anything Egwene ever did, BTW, so as much as I dislike her, I don't get why he's brought up as being a better person). That's far worse than bonding 50 Aes Sedai in self-defence.

[XXX]

Hopefully the Asha'man do not develop the same kind of arrogance.

 

One of the first things Asha'man did was make a bond to compel.... so strike 1 I guess.

 

Lan does not seem surprised she was capable of compelling him when Moir tells him she used the bond to make him go to Myrelle. So I believe Warder's know it's possible, and they sign up for it willingly. So you really can't blame the Aes Sedai for any of that. I would assume how much it's used depends on the Aes Sedai, but singing up to be a warder without knowing the Aes Sedai well enough seems pretty dumb. Can't just get a divorce =)

 

Obviously Rand wasn't willingly, but this thread is about the institution as a whole isn't it? And they've been bonding Warders for a long time.

 

The bond to compel was used to subdue an invading force..would you rather they slaughtered the all mighty AS?

[Suttree]

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

 

Warders know of it...

 

TGH

“Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another.” He stared at her, silent. “When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it.”

“Compelled,” he breathed softly, angrily. “Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that.”

 

I take the Myrelle quote provided earlier to mean that if the Lan knew what she was doing ahead of time there would be a huge blow up, Ashaman can skirt that problem due to the differences discussed earlier.

 

Logain started a huge war which had thousands of casualties and had shown zero remorse for that (far worse thing than anything Egwene ever did, BTW, so as much as I dislike her, I don't get why he's brought up as being a better person). That's far worse than bonding 50 Aes Sedai in self-defence.

 

Thanks for including a much needed dose of reality to the conversation...

[MasterAblar]

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

 

Warders know of it...

 

TGH

“Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another.” He stared at her, silent. “When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it.”

“Compelled,” he breathed softly, angrily. “Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that.”

 

I take the Myrelle quote provided earlier to mean that if the Lan knew what she was doing ahead of time there would be a huge blow up, Ashaman can skirt that problem due to the differences discussed earlier.

 

Logain started a huge war which had thousands of casualties and had shown zero remorse for that (far worse thing than anything Egwene ever did, BTW, so as much as I dislike her, I don't get why he's brought up as being a better person). That's far worse than bonding 50 Aes Sedai in self-defence.

 

Thanks for including a much needed dose of reality to the conversation...

 

True but it's not like he started the war out of fun or boredom or cruelty. He started it because he seriously thought he was the DR, and besides look at the position he was in. It was either be the DR or be doomed to go mad. If we're comparing him and Egwene, and I really don't see why we are, well she has never had to face such a fate.

[MasterAblar]

randsc, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is one of those cases where you're being deliberately. . . provocative. . . and i'll give us all a rest.

 

 

it's only bad when AS compels warders using their bonds. But when logain does it is a okay. what alanna did to rand is no different what logain and co did. randsc is just dilute version of XXX47. Anti aes sedai, anti egwene and anti anyone who does not follow the lord dragon willy nilly.

 

Whatever, troll.

 

I've been clear that it is NOT ok for Logain, etal to bond Aes Sedai. They should have killed them, which they would have been perfectly justified in doing.

 

Rand's foolish softheartedness caused this problem.

 

Actually I think this decision to not hurt aes sedai was more of a "don't bother your enemy when he's making a huge mistake" (the aes sedai stupidly fighting each other instead of worrying about him) thing than any softheartedness on his part.

[XXX]

After Rand was kidnapped and beaten, he should have gathered the Asha'man, traveled to the WT and thumped Elaida and her AS in their precious tower...after executing all the sisters who kidnapped him.

The AS should thank their lucky stars Rand is a forgiving person, he is perfectly within rights to have killed a large number of them for offences against him,

[randsc]

Since people have moved on to the standard, "It doesn't matter that the Aes Sedai have done evil things, because others have too! Waaah! Waaah!" argument, does that mean we accept that the AS do in fact compel their Warders? And that their horror at the Asha'man doing the same to them is, at best, self-serving?

[Zentari]

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

 

Warders know of it...

Lan knows of it, not all warders and the question still remains : do they mention that part when asking for a bond or do they skim it as one of the little details on a need to know basis ? Call it a gut feeling but I think it's the second part.

[AquilaInfernus]

Perhaps a little perspective on the matter:

 

The White Tower and Aes Sedai are a 3000 year old institution, and contrary to the Wise Ones and Wind Finders, were established by actual AoL AS. They wield a power that at it's worst could turn them into an oppressive and nigh unstoppable force of tyrants. In fact this threat, and their isolated, autonomous and concentrated set up is exactly what precipitated the three Oaths.

 

Their teaching methods reflect the subject they teach to the students they have; compare the burn outs suffered by Taim's Black Tower methods with that of the White Tower (already a few dozen for BT, none in 12 years for WT). They teach women already in a dominant frame of mind (the price of male madness) about a power that can surely corrupt. Their relative decline precipitates one of caution, that Egwene, Nyneave, Elayne, Nicola and others with strength have already rebelled against.

 

We do not let children drive cars without first supervising them, testing them and limiting their freedom of use, why would a far more dangerous power not be far more constrained?

 

On the Warder Bond: They're both self serving and as bad as the other. I would warrant the men are more likely to be corrupted by their new found power than the women (citing psychological differences). No doubt the compulsion inherent to the bond has some practical use. It is merely more binding than say a general's command in battle.

[Suttree]

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

 

Warders know of it...

Lan knows of it, not all warders and the question still remains : do they mention that part when asking for a bond or do they skim it as one of the little details on a need to know basis ? Call it a gut feeling but I think it's the second part.

 

What makes you say most other warders don't know about it? The quote from Lan shows there is a term for it and with how close warders and AS are, I would be surprised if they didn't disclose the fact most of the time. The reality is in the the glimpses we have seen between bonded individuals(both Asha and AS) there is a great deal of respect and mutual understanding.

 

Since people have moved on to the standard, "It doesn't matter that the Aes Sedai have done evil things, because others have too! Waaah! Waaah!" argument, does that mean we accept that the AS do in fact compel their Warders? And that their horror at the Asha'man doing the same to them is, at best, self-serving?

 

Don't think anyone is really disputing the bonding but Randsc you know as well as I that with men having been tainted from Saidin for 3,000 years, the Red Ajah was merely fulfilling their purpose in going to the BT. No one complained when they took down Logain, Taim, Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane etc. They have saved uncounted lives and the world much suffering in doing their job...you know that whole little protecting the world from insane channelers causing mass destruction. Saidin had not been cleansed yet. Dealing with the DR is one thing, standing by while hundreds of men that could snap at any minute, become better and better weapons quite another. Yes, I know they were sent to kill...that folly lays squarely on Elaida but it doesn't change the fact that is what the Red was made for, to gentle or kill those tainted through the DO's touch. It was their job before the Cleansing, one that has been reinforced as the right and only thing to do for 3,000 years!

 

That is something quite different from setting yourself up as a false dragon and killing thousands of innocents for personnel glory while "Half the known world trembled". There really is no comparison.

[AegisArcana]

Perhaps a little perspective on the matter:

 

Their teaching methods reflect the subject they teach to the students they have; compare the burn outs suffered by Taim's Black Tower methods with that of the White Tower (already a few dozen for BT, none in 12 years for WT). They teach women already in a dominant frame of mind (the price of male madness) about a power that can surely corrupt. Their relative decline precipitates one of caution, that Egwene, Nyneave, Elayne, Nicola and others with strength have already rebelled against.

 

We do not let children drive cars without first supervising them, testing them and limiting their freedom of use, why would a far more dangerous power not be far more constrained?

 

I agree for the need to have restricted freedom of those who want to go to the White Tower or the Black Tower to learn from those organizations. Yet, many times Aes Sedai take people against their will to the White Tower for training, almost a form of compulsion. It should always be a choice to go to the tower. Forcing someone to come along and train just because Aes Sedai think it should be so is arrogance and oppressiveness combined. Additionally, the system of governance within the White tower seems far too susceptible to Daes'Damar. It should be primarily an educational organization, not a political one.

It is great and wonderful if any channeler or group of channelers want to get together and become genius political advisers to Kings and Queens to insure peace and justice reign. But that type of activity should be separated from educational activities, otherwise education becomes politicized and knowledge is withheld because people fear losing power to other classmates or Aes Sedai. It seems that this is the primary driver of the decline of the White Tower. The White and Black towers should be sanctuaries as well as educational institutions, not political machines.

 

Channelers should be allowed to live out their lives in peace if they do not want to learn much about channeling. It is THEIR CHOICE. If it kills them, fine. That is a potential consequence that they chose. I do support distributing information about the one power to all people so that the risks of not being trained are widely known. This would at least make all channelers or potential channelers aware of the potential dangers and responsibilities of access to the One Power.

 

 

 

On the subject of warder bonds and compulsion, it seems natural that the Ash'Aman would make a bond that contains more compulsion than the Aes Sedai warder bond. Think of male channelers situation. They must struggle with saidin. The natural reaction is to make weaves that give control and enable management, so the reaction of making bonds that enable a greater degree of control than Aes Sedai bonds are very plausible and understandable.

 

Also, think of the weaves. It is likely that while Logain was making the bond that he was thinking of all the times Aes Sedai had done terrible things to him. It would not surprise to me if he incorporated a touch of Compulsion in his bonds with the Aes Sedai, whether intentional or unintentional.

[Suttree]

On the subject of warder bonds and compulsion, it seems natural that the Ash'Aman would make a bond that contains more compulsion than the Aes Sedai warder bond. Think of male channelers situation. They must struggle with saidin. The natural reaction is to make weaves that give control and enable management, so the reaction of making bonds that enable a greater degree of control than Aes Sedai bonds are very plausible and understandable.

 

Also, think of the weaves. It is likely that while Logain was making the bond that he was thinking of all the times Aes Sedai had done terrible things to him. It would not surprise to me if he incorporated a touch of Compulsion in his bonds with the Aes Sedai, whether intentional or unintentional.

 

It wasn't Logain, and it wasn't quite that innocent...you do realize they stumbled across that "extra bit" of compulsion while experimenting with bonding their wives don't you?

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

[AegisArcana]

 

It wasn't Logain, and it wasn't quite that innocent...you do realize they stumbled across that "extra bit" of compulsion while experimenting with bonding their wives don't you?

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, Suttree. I need to re-read the part about when the bond was first created. Do you remember where it is?

 

Also, one point I want to make is that I don't think bonds have to be forever. All it takes is one channeler, male or female, to discover a weave that cuts a bond and there you have it, no more problems with bonding! It is bound to happen eventually.

[Suttree]

 

It wasn't Logain, and it wasn't quite that innocent...you do realize they stumbled across that "extra bit" of compulsion while experimenting with bonding their wives don't you?

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, Suttree. I need to re-read the part about when the bond was first created. Do you remember where it is?

 

Also, one point I want to make is that I don't think bonds have to be forever. All it takes is one channeler, male or female, to discover a weave that cuts a bond and there you have it, no more problems with bonding! It is bound to happen eventually.

 

Wow that is a good point AA, never thought of that. Although if it is possible one does have to wonder what the effect would be on both parties?

 

As for the Ashaman bonding I think the first time we see it might be when Logain captures Toveine, believe the creation happens off screen. RJ does talk a bit more about it in Q&A's though...

[Zentari]

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

 

Warders know of it...

Lan knows of it, not all warders and the question still remains : do they mention that part when asking for a bond or do they skim it as one of the little details on a need to know basis ? Call it a gut feeling but I think it's the second part.

What makes you say most other warders don't know about it? The quote from Lan shows there is a term for it and with how close warders and AS are, I would be surprised if they didn't disclose the fact most of the time. The reality is in the the glimpses we have seen between bonded individuals(both Asha and AS) there is a great deal of respect and mutual understanding.

 

Read it again and point out where I said that "most other warders don't".I didn't.Also, nice way of side-stepping the issue without actually addressing it.Have we actually seen such a disclosure ? Nope,nor was it brought up even to the trainees ("Hey, you are training to be warders so listen up ; she might use mindcontrol on you if she thinks it's worth it.")

 

Given how the AS have a habit of leaving things unsaid, I would say that conclusions can be easily drawn about this.

[MasterAblar]

On the subject of warder bonds and compulsion, it seems natural that the Ash'Aman would make a bond that contains more compulsion than the Aes Sedai warder bond. Think of male channelers situation. They must struggle with saidin. The natural reaction is to make weaves that give control and enable management, so the reaction of making bonds that enable a greater degree of control than Aes Sedai bonds are very plausible and understandable.

 

Also, think of the weaves. It is likely that while Logain was making the bond that he was thinking of all the times Aes Sedai had done terrible things to him. It would not surprise to me if he incorporated a touch of Compulsion in his bonds with the Aes Sedai, whether intentional or unintentional.

 

It wasn't Logain, and it wasn't quite that innocent...you do realize they stumbled across that "extra bit" of compulsion while experimenting with bonding their wives don't you?

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

They don't use the extra bit (compulsion) on their wives. When Logain bonds Toveine he says something like: "I could have done without the extra bit. But then again you're no wife...".

[MasterAblar]

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

 

Warders know of it...

Lan knows of it, not all warders and the question still remains : do they mention that part when asking for a bond or do they skim it as one of the little details on a need to know basis ? Call it a gut feeling but I think it's the second part.

 

What makes you say most other warders don't know about it? The quote from Lan shows there is a term for it and with how close warders and AS are, I would be surprised if they didn't disclose the fact most of the time. The reality is in the the glimpses we have seen between bonded individuals(both Asha and AS) there is a great deal of respect and mutual understanding.

 

Since people have moved on to the standard, "It doesn't matter that the Aes Sedai have done evil things, because others have too! Waaah! Waaah!" argument, does that mean we accept that the AS do in fact compel their Warders? And that their horror at the Asha'man doing the same to them is, at best, self-serving?

 

Don't think anyone is really disputing the bonding but Randsc you know as well as I that with men having been tainted from Saidin for 3,000 years, the Red Ajah was merely fulfilling their purpose in going to the BT. No one complained when they took down Logain, Taim, Guaire Amalasan, Raolin Darksbane etc. They have saved uncounted lives and the world much suffering in doing their job...you know that whole little protecting the world from insane channelers causing mass destruction. Saidin had not been cleansed yet. Dealing with the DR is one thing, standing by while hundreds of men that could snap at any minute, become better and better weapons quite another. Yes, I know they were sent to kill...that folly lays squarely on Elaida but it doesn't change the fact that is what the Red was made for, to gentle or kill those tainted through the DO's touch. It was their job before the Cleansing, one that has been reinforced as the right and only thing to do for 3,000 years!

 

That is something quite different from setting yourself up as a false dragon and killing thousands of innocents for personnel glory while "Half the known world trembled". There really is no comparison.

 

It was still basically a declaration of war on the DR which is dumb no matter how you look at it. They should have at least approached Rand before deciding to go and slaughter a bunch of his followers. They were under his protection and there had been no issue at the BT so far. They could have trusted him bit I suppose that would be a lot to ask for. Nonetheless the manner in which they were going to go about it was despicable.

 

As for the last part, Logain believed he was the DR, so he acted on it. His purpose wasn't to slaughter innocents and I doubt he just went around killing people. He probably only fought people who tried to stop him. And I don't know if glory was much of an issue when it was either be the DR or be doomed to go mad or be gentled and die of depression.

[plague fiend]

I have, as of July 30th 2011, read up through the 9th book two times now. Between readings I had the chance of taking multiple philosophy classes and have gone through great personal change to my beliefs of freedom and respect.

 

After reading the second time it is hard for me not to hate the White Tower and all of its "so-called Aes Sedai," as Moridin and many of the forsaken refer to them. I admit that the system of training Novices to Aes Sedai is useful, but it is largely oppressive.

 

The arrogance of Aes Sedai pains me as I read the books. I understand that they want to ensure the survival of the world and the keeping of peace, but they shouldn't have to look down their noses at everybody to accomplish that goal. Moreover, I hate nobles and Daes'Damar. Although Daes'Damar will not be going away, similar to how politics never dies, I believe the nobles could be done without.

 

Since book Six I have been wishing that there were an uprising in one of the countries to start a more fair and representative government in some part of the Wheel of Time, where any man or woman is free in the truest sense of the word. If all that country did was take refugees of other countries it would already be half as big as any nation excepting the Seanchan nation.

 

The Aes Sedai have too much an air of self-importance, especially seeing as how the male channelers' problems have largely been removed by Rand.

 

The pomp of the White Tower is nearly unbearable at times. It would be nice if in the last book then the Forsaken obliterated Tar Valon in some sort of last ditch effort to harm the Light. After, of course, all of the books and important artifacts are removed. :D

 

 

I wonder about the White Tower and exactly what RJ had envisioned for them. They seem to be changing to a degree, but to what end. At first they seemed mysterious and powerful and now they are conceited, unwilling to change and a danger to themselves and the world. I can see some hope for them, but like I said, we'll see what RJ ha envisioned for them at the end.

[Suttree]

They were under his protection and there had been no issue at the BT so far. They could have trusted him bit I suppose that would be a lot to ask for. Nonetheless the manner in which they were going to go about it was despicable.

 

As for the last part, Logain believed he was the DR, so he acted on it. His purpose wasn't to slaughter innocents and I doubt he just went around killing people. He probably only fought people who tried to stop him. And I don't know if glory was much of an issue when it was either be the DR or be doomed to go mad or be gentled and die of depression.

 

No one is questioning that Elaida went about it in the worst possible way but what does it matter that hundreds of men destined to go mad were under the DR protection? They could have trusted him in what? They had no idea he might be working on a miracle that everyone thinks only the Creator could give. Hundreds of men destined to go mad in one place and the Reds are supposed sit back and watch?

 

As for Logain, he is just about my fav character in the series but he knew he was a false dragon. He wasn't born on DM, it was a personnel war for glory which is what he values above all. Look how he reacted after Min's reading. Why would you think that if he became the DR that would mean he wouldn't go mad?

 

Read it again and point out where I said that "most other warders don't".I didn't.Also, nice way of side-stepping the issue without actually addressing it.Have we actually seen such a disclosure ? Nope,nor was it brought up even to the trainees ("Hey, you are training to be warders so listen up ; she might use mindcontrol on you if she thinks it's worth it.")

 

Given how the AS have a habit of leaving things unsaid, I would say that conclusions can be easily drawn about this.

 

Ok...sorry. So you were saying there maybe a few warders that don't know about it? You think all the warders don't talk? That makes what you are saying even less likely. Something of a personnel nature like that would probably not be addressed in mass to trainees. Not sure why you think something that has barely been touched upon in the story would warrant it's own full disclosure scene?