Mafia Grievances

[Myndrunner]

Red, let's focus on this point specifically...

 

**** focused on #2 ****

 

2) Since when have the mafia not been allowed to communicate with each other outside the mafia QT? Like on Skype or email, or alternate QT's? When one of the mafia players is suspected of being recruited to a cult or a town spy, how can the mafia handle this situation?

 

 

this i totally disagree with. game discussion should be kept to the QT board or PM thread (which ever the Mod assigns the players) as a Mafia Mod, if i found a player to be talking outside of the QT i would either kill, or replace that person; it's one of the few rules i'm anal about when i run my games. to me, doing this, especially without the Mods knoweldge, is cheating. if you ask the Mod and they okay the outside thread communication, thats different, because then the Mod knows about it. but talking about the game outside of the QT might ruin the game mechanics the Mod set up.

 

as for if the game has a traitor, infaltrator, spy, ect on the QT, then yes the option shoudl be available for players to make a QT, and invite team mates who they believe aren't ratting them out. but the Mod should recieve the QT link and it should be up to the players to ask if they can make one on the chance they have a feeling one of their team mates is a turn-coat.

 

its one thing to PM a player after your dead in a game to ask them if their scum or not; i think we've all let our curiostiy get the better of us in this way. but discussing/planning/plotting should be kept to the QT's unless the mod decideds otherwise. i'm a very competitive person, maybe more so than others, when i sign up for a game, i sign up to win it. but its no fun winning at the game by cheating, any more so than winning because the town had a bunch of inactives on the list.

 

 

I love you Red and unlike a lot of players, I actually read what you say - however, you have yet to explain WHY you feel this way. Why must a mod read everything said by the mafia team? What game function or purpose does it serve for the Mod to read everything discussed? Before there was a QT, mafia communicated via PM, emails, and MSN.

 

The only reason I see for Mods to want to have access to everything said is for their own amusement. I would have gladly cc'd BG on my PM to you in the game if that were the case; however, I have yet to be convinced in any situation how it is considered cheating to communicate with your teammate outside of the QT. Any mod who demands that the mafia be restricted to a mafia QT for no other reason than being able to read what they say is either arrogant or paranoid.

 

Aside from the embarrassing way that situation was handled by the mod, what blows my mind is how many games (many of which you and I have been in) it has been standard mafia play to communicate in any way possible. If there was a role or game mechanic which required the mafia to communicate in the QT only, then such a rule should have 1) been explicit and clear from the start and 2) a minor infraction of that rule should not result in immediate modkill, especially without hearing from the player.

 

Red, you know me. You know I would not intentionally try to violate the game. Push the limits? Yes, but not an actual violation. There simply is nothing wrong with sending a PM to a teammate who was still in the game. BG grossly overreacted and modkilled me on an implied rule that is counter to how mafia has been played on DM for years.

 

Still disagree? Convert me. Make me a believer. I see no reason why the mafia should be forced to only communicate on the designated mafia QT, especially when it has not been so for years here.

[Ithillian Turambar]

 

 

.......

 

 

 

>.>

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes

[WWWwombat]

I can see going either way on that rule. I asked Kivam to make sure I could communicate privately with certain members of House Stark in his Game of Thrones game and he said yes. Personally, I am sort of obsessive compulsive so I like to keep mafia communication on the QT. I always specify this on the QT of course. If there are usurpers or traitors though, players should probably be allowed to communicate privately with certain members as long as they ask. Also, sometimes QT doesn't work for me and I have to resort to group PMs. I don't know much about Mynd's situation and I don't want to until the game is over, but I have a feeling that it is a situation that could have been handled better by both mod and player. As a mod, you have to assume that players will do whatever they can to win (or maybe even do things that are not in their best interest) regardless of whether or not you expected or intended such behavior when setting up the game. For instance, I was astounded when Red outed Aemon as a false dragon in my WoT game because I personally would have kept quiet on that point so as to protect Key (the true dragon). I was frustrated but I didn't do anything. When Red broke one of my explicitly stated rules by hinting at her character, however, I was forced to take action. I should have modkilled her right away (Kivam told me so), but I was lenient and it bit me in the butt as Red was semi-confirmed for a little while after that. Luckily, I hadn't specified that modkills for not reaching a majority would be random (I had used a vague phrasing about the Pattern deciding if the players could not), so I Pattern lynched Red shortly after that. That game was a learning experience for me as it also had the situation where Verbal role revealed a role that screamed Elayne without asking me. That was a gray area since role reveals were allowed but character hints were not and I hadn't expressly prohibited Verbal from doing that (I thought it was an obvious implication of the rules). Gave mafia a free kill.

[Verbal32]

Lemme weigh in here. I've been playing mafia here on DM for about 4-5 years. QTs are new, over the last couple of years. It is standard DM mafia play to communicate as scum however you see fit. The QT is simple a better tool instead of clunky PMs. That's it. End of story.

 

If a mod wants to limit discussion to ONLY a QT....that is fine, but they must explicitly state that in the rules.

[WWWwombat]

What is not forbidden is allowed.

[WWWwombat]

Also, I usually put that statement on the mafia QT or Role PMs rather than in the public rules but one could do it either way.

[Myndrunner]

I'd like to know from anyone what purpose it serves for mafia (or masons) to only use the given QT? Why would any mod make this a requirement? What functional game purpose does it serve?

 

Please educate me because this is completely askew from Standard Mafia play here on DM.

[Verbal32]

What is not forbidden is allowed.

 

Perfectly stated. This is mafia, people. The whole point of the game is to trick and deceive.

[WWWwombat]

It is not askew from standard play elsewhere though. In a simple game game, limiting discussion to the QT serves no gameplay purpose, but in a game with cults, usurpers, masterminds, spies, mafia masons/neighbors, etc. it usually serves to make the backstabbing roles easier to play imo.

[Myndrunner]

It is not askew from standard play elsewhere though. In a simple game game, limiting discussion to the QT serves no gameplay purpose, but in a game with cults, usurpers, masterminds, spies, mafia masons/neighbors, etc. it usually serves to make the backstabbing roles easier to play imo.

 

But what happens when one of the mafia suspect one of their own either as cult or a spy? Those roles are supposed to be difficult, but handicapping the mafia so they are easier not only imbalances the game but cheapens the spy/cult player's victory.

 

Ive never played in a game where the mafia were required to communicate only on the QT until this past one. And like it has been said, if its not explicitly forbidden, then it should be allowed.

[Verbal32]

It is not askew from standard play elsewhere though. In a simple game game, limiting discussion to the QT serves no gameplay purpose, but in a game with cults, usurpers, masterminds, spies, mafia masons/neighbors, etc. it usually serves to make the backstabbing roles easier to play imo.

 

Might have to agree to disagree on that last - IMO, if you can't hide that you're a spy or usurper or whatever.....then you failed your role. Why should we make it easier for them when the mafia team has no clue?

[Talya]

I'm with Lily...one of the old timers...(even before Lily...which is saying something ;) )

 

See in my day we used to use PM's, and the rule was...don't talk about the game outside the thread unless mod has given you permission etc... In those days it was PM's (and they aren't like they are now!) So we used to PM our msns and chat on there. the Mod had no idea what we were saying or planning, it was a surprise to them as well as everyone else. Games went along nicely...bit of a pain when on different time zone to your entire team. And then along comes QT's..marvellous things. But I have to agree here with a few, that I see no reason why you have to stick to the QT. Now sometimes that's the way some moDs like it...fine let everyone know how you want it ...it's your game after all. some like the control I guess. but I'm another that has never been in one of those that have said specifically that. so I've always taken it to mean, if I want to contact someone via some other way I will, especially if time is limited and I don't have time to got to QT...send a PM on here.

 

As for the Modkilling, I'm really reluctant to do it in a game but I have done it. I do however talk to the person to see if there is any way round it. In my last game one of the guys broke the rule of no editing I had up there. He was new to mafia and I didn't want to modkill him. So we had a chat on PM's explaining why it was a rule and asking to try and not to although we do it all the time elsewhere...and he abided by it...

 

If you realise you need a rule in there, let everyone know, sometimes you didn't realise you need a rule until something happens, so then you have minimise the damage then make the rule from that point onwards.

 

Disclaimer: The above is not about any on going game, just my observations over the years.

 

PS...Mynd please don't leave, you infuriate me sometimes, and I get so frustrated and let things get to me (not always but when other things in RL are getting to me too), but I Love playing with you...

 

As for taking things personally, when the game is done and dusted I walk away from the game, not thinking any less of anyone I have played with, in fact thinking more of them, no matter what has gone on during the game. There are some fantastic players on these boards and I'm proud to have played with some of the best! So no matter what I say or do, what arguments I have at the end of the day, I don't take it personnaly and that's how it should be...I sometimes think of revenge...but that's another story...

[Amadine]

Even though I do specifically use that rule, I would allow my scum/cult/masons to use PMs or MSN if they asked too.

 

The golden rule should be, if in doubt ask the mod IMO

[Verbal32]

Even though I do specifically use that rule, I would allow my scum/cult/masons to use PMs or MSN if they asked too.

 

The golden rule should be, if in doubt ask the mod IMO

 

I'm confused....then you really don't have that rule if you're ok with scum chatting via MSN.

 

Maybe I'm too old school for this, as there are only 2-3 active players here from when I started.

 

Wombat is right, IMO: whatever is not forbidden is allowed, with the caveat of observing and caring for the spirit of the game.

[Amadine]

This thread has already convinced me to change my wording on that rule Verb.

[Verbal32]

This thread has already convinced me to change my wording on that rule Verb.

 

Gotcha, lol.

[WWWwombat]

It is not askew from standard play elsewhere though. In a simple game game, limiting discussion to the QT serves no gameplay purpose, but in a game with cults, usurpers, masterminds, spies, mafia masons/neighbors, etc. it usually serves to make the backstabbing roles easier to play imo.

 

Might have to agree to disagree on that last - IMO, if you can't hide that you're a spy or usurper or whatever.....then you failed your role. Why should we make it easier for them when the mafia team has no clue?

 

I don't really care too much one way or the other tbh.

[Myndrunner]

What is not forbidden is allowed.

This should be the golden rule of Modding Mafia games.

 

It is the Mod's responsibility to create a fun and balanced game for the players to explore, so that they have a reason to sign up for their next game. This includes scaffolding the game so that there are just enough rules to keep the game from getting out of control, but no unnecessary or contradictory rules which ruin the fun of the game. As Talya said, a good mod needs to be flexible and able to adapt the game when surprises pop up. After all, how fun is a mafia game when no one signs up for it?

 

PS...Mynd please don't leave, you infuriate me sometimes, and I get so frustrated and let things get to me (not always but when other things in RL are getting to me too), but I Love playing with you...

No worries Tal, you always know where to find me and I'm sure I'll be around. School has started back up and the Radio shows are keeping me busy, but I'm sure I'll pop back in again soon. Ive played in 6 DM games this past holiday season and really only 2 of them were enjoyable, one was a blast and the other was just meh. Even though Ithi bamboozled me in the end, I thoroughly enjoyed Lily's game. I think what made it fun was the flexibility of the game mixed with fun players who came to play.

 

Talya, you are among those I respect in this game and I know I infuriate a lot of people, but you know its just a game. Those of you who know me outside of mafia know I'm an alright guy......right? RIGHT?!

 

if in doubt ask the mod IMO

 

I agree but it is the Mod's responsibility to remove as much doubt as possible and there will always be some instances where the player has no doubt that what they are doing is fine but is actually not.

 

I think as Mods we have to remember that our job is to create a fun and fair game that everyone has a chance to win and enjoy doing so. To do so, one needs to be flexible and adaptable to new situations that your players might (and will) create for you. Sure, there will be times where Modkilling is the only option left, but that should be after all alternatives have been exhausted.

 

Sure, a Mod can run their game however they want....but good luck getting players to sign up again if you don't run it fair the first time.

[Verbal32]

Those of you who know me outside of mafia know I'm an alright guy......right? RIGHT?!

 

*crickets*

 

;-)

[Ithillian Turambar]

For the record ... I never bamboozled Mynd, I bamboozled Kate lol.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Also for the Record - had our roles been reversed, she would have been able to do the same to me. This is why we generally don't play in the same game.

[Myndrunner]

Those of you who know me outside of mafia know I'm an alright guy......right? RIGHT?!

 

*crickets*

 

;-)

Ewoks are just tiny Wookies! *kicks rocks*

 

For the record ... I never bamboozled Mynd, I bamboozled Kate lol.

.....who was my mason partner, who I listened to.

[LilyElizabeth]

Mynd brings up good points. I can't stress enough how difficult it is to create a good, fun game. Modding well is harder than people think it is.

[Red2111]

mothers milk ina cup and flamming bloody buttered onions i hate my home CPU with a passion that burns brighter than the sun

 

i've tried typing up a flamming response 3 times now, i'm not trying again tonight. an hour on one response is just too much and i'm about to just chuck my CPU through a wall

 

i hit the back space button and instead of erasing the single letter or word it does the entire bloody message or even better decided to pretend its the back arrow on my browser :dry: :dry:

 

 

*stabs her computer in a non-sg affectionate way*

 

 

[Amadine]

For what is worth... as a result of the game just finished

 

Emo meltdowns now equal a vote from me.

 

Use of a serious medical condition as an excuse to cover your scumminess is not cool. It's actually quite offensive to those who actually do live with the condition every day.