How to setup and mod a game:

[DPR]

Awesome thread.

 

To the experienced mods out there, what are your thoughts on replacing vs modkilling? I tend to lean towards the latter because I feel that replacing breaks continuity.

 

This depends on the situation: if a player violates a rule (knowingly) that's a modkill. Period. Modkills should be used sparingly, but never ignore the option.

 

As far as inactive players go, replacement rocks the boat less and is a better option if you have a player that can step in. If you have a chronic offender (of inactivity) you should, as mod, politely tell them that they are on notice to play - and if they go inactive in your game, not only will they be replaced, but they won't be invited to other games that you mod. The word will get out, and that player will either play, or they'll stop signing up.

 

The other issue here falls under another category, and this gets a bit more advanced - it's Mod Discretion - and there are situation where a cut and dried answer is not really possible. Say a player with a major role, does something borderline against the rules, and another player calls them on it. What do you do as mod? This is where a multi-tiered solution that best benefits the game is in order, and it often requires a mod to make decisions behind the scenes. Don't fight this - ask for help, and keep the game going.

 

 

 

[Red2111]

i've always preferred to replace rather than MK. with inactives, usually the players tend to solve the problem; either by lynching them or the scum NKing them to keep the info low for the town.

 

one option i like is that if you have to MK a player for some reason and that player has a role, you can always re-assign the role to a person who either doesn't have a role or has a passive role; this way you keep the balance and role in play. it still doesn't solve the #'s balance issue though. another option i like is replacing from lynched players (townies of course) this way if you need a replacement but the game is 10 pages in, the replacement wont have that much catching up to do. this only woks ofcourse if revivals are in play but imo, is better than dragging a new player into the mix that has to read from page 1 to know whats going on.

 

 

like i said though, as a mod i hate MKing unless its unavoidable like rule breaking.

 

 

i'm also one of those that love to set up loads of roles in my games, whether it's back ups or a "kitchen sink" type game. for me, it makes modding much more interesting and if a player has a role their likely to keep playing and stay active. this trend seems to be changing lately, so i might try modding a few basic games or advanced ones without many roles.

 

for bastard games *cough* kivams police academy *cough* i'd love to try my hand at this style of modding one time just to see how it is. kivam's game was a blast as a player and i can only imagine the fun he had as a mod watching the confusion unfold as we found out just how many finders there were

 

 

that said, i'd like to see a disscussion on Items in this thread. theif plays and what not. i tried items in my HP game and failed miserabley; as i'd like to run that game again in it's entire form (the beast that it was) this is an area i was sorely lacking in.

 

 

another thing i have yet to see talked about is the fact that as a mod you need to consider 2 different types of balances when making a game. theres the town/anti-town balance; then theres the role balance. both of these are equally important to a game. for instance if you use a Lie Detector role you should balance it out with a Silver Tongue on the scum side. i think role balancing is where most of the newer mods get in trouble concerning balance, and it's easy enough to do. heck i've done it myself more times than i can count.

 

 

[LilyElizabeth]

Awesome thread.

 

To the experienced mods out there, what are your thoughts on replacing vs modkilling? I tend to lean towards the latter because I feel that replacing breaks continuity.

 

 

First of all, I agree on the first statement.

 

I don't modkill. The only time I ever have was a broken post restriction. I would if the rules were violated, but I haven't had that come up. I would replace players for inactivity. I'm not sure I've ever had to do that, either, come to think of it.

[ed2funy]

The only time I ever have was a broken post restriction.

 

[Kivam]

i've always preferred to replace rather than MK. with inactives, usually the players tend to solve the problem; either by lynching them or the scum NKing them to keep the info low for the town.

 

The problem with this is that if you have a true inactive, scum will just keep them alive to maximize the scum team's voting power. Think about it - 10 players, 3 scum. Six to lynch. To lynch scum, either 6/7 innocents need to all vote for scum, or (more likely) the other 2 scum members will vote for their teammate to keep their alignment hidden.

 

Now what happens if 2 of those townies are inactive? All of a sudden, it's impossible to lynch scum without a scum vote - and smart scum will game that, make up an alternative case on a townie, and you'll have people voting for the townie just to get a lynch (since there won't be enough votes on the scum to do it). Then, the next day, you're nominally at 3 scum, 5 town - but with 2 inactive townies, the number of voting players is actually 3-3.

 

 

for bastard games *cough* kivams police academy *cough* i'd love to try my hand at this style of modding one time just to see how it is. kivam's game was a blast as a player and i can only imagine the fun he had as a mod watching the confusion unfold as we found out just how many finders there were

 

No, I don't think you can.

 

that said, i'd like to see a disscussion on Items in this thread. theif plays and what not. i tried items in my HP game and failed miserabley; as i'd like to run that game again in it's entire form (the beast that it was) this is an area i was sorely lacking in.

 

Items are a pain in the butt to keep track of as a mod. I used them in my Cthulhu game and they helped. You need to make sure that: (1) The items are worthwhile enough that people want to steal them; (2) you clearly explain how to steal them and what happens if you steal from a player and get stolen from in turn; (3) the items don't overpower the game.

 

another thing i have yet to see talked about is the fact that as a mod you need to consider 2 different types of balances when making a game. theres the town/anti-town balance; then theres the role balance. both of these are equally important to a game. for instance if you use a Lie Detector role you should balance it out with a Silver Tongue on the scum side. i think role balancing is where most of the newer mods get in trouble concerning balance, and it's easy enough to do. heck i've done it myself more times than i can count.

 

This I completely disagree with. That's not really balance at all. Think of it like this. A standard mafia setup is a town composed of cop/doc/roleless, and a vanilla mafia. If you give the mafia a godfather, you would add some role to the town, or play with the townie-scum numbers, to make the game balanced, right? Well, a godfather is that superficial "role balance" for a cop, and a "silver tongue" is essentially another godfather. More, if you give the scum a silver tongue, you are telling the whole team that there is a lie detector in the game. Handing the scum a silver tongue doesn't balance the lie detector role - it actually shifts the balance over to the scum.

 

You can't balance games mechanistically, by just excepting one scum member from a townie role's power. I gave the town a tracker, I'll make one scum untrackable (not balanced, favors the town). I gave the town a lie detector, I'll give the scum a silver tongue (not balanced, favors scum). You need to look at the totality of the town's power and the totality of the scum's power and decide whether, all things considered, the sides have roughly equal chances of winning.

[Sedai]

You could just give the scum a silver tongue and not have a LD in the game.

 

I disagree Kiv.

 

Wen you introduce a godfather then a cop is almost guaranteed. People assume there is a cop anyways. If their is a LD a and that's the only investigative town power then a silver tongue acts ax the same balancing factor.

[Kivam]

You could just give the scum a silver tongue and not have a LD in the game.

 

You could. But then the silver tongue doesn't impact the balance much at all, because it's a useless role for that game.

 

I disagree Kiv.

 

Wen you introduce a godfather then a cop is almost guaranteed. People assume there is a cop anyways. If their is a LD a and that's the only investigative town power then a silver tongue acts ax the same balancing factor.

 

Right. Now think about that for a second. In the typical game, there is a cop and no godfather. If a godfather is added, you've tilted the game in favor of the mafia, and you need to add something to the town to help rebalance it. Why? Because even though the godfather is, superficially, the "balancing role" for the cop, the fact is that a godfather on the mafia side is worth more than a cop on the town side.

 

Now, transfer that idea to your silver tongue/lie detector example: giving the town a lie detector and the scum a silver tongue, with no further balancing attempted, is - as you said - exactly like giving the town a cop and the scum a godfather, with no further balancing attempted: unbalanced in favor of the scum.

 

If all you do when thinking about balance is create roles for town and hand scum exceptions, odds are that while your roles might be balanced, superficially, your games won't be (except, occasionally, by accident). And with mafia, the only thing you care about in terms of setup, as a mod, is that the game is balanced.

[Sedai]

Agreed Kiv

[DPR]

You could just give the scum a silver tongue and not have a LD in the game.

 

You could. But then the silver tongue doesn't impact the balance much at all, because it's a useless role for that game.

 

I disagree Kiv.

 

Wen you introduce a godfather then a cop is almost guaranteed. People assume there is a cop anyways. If their is a LD a and that's the only investigative town power then a silver tongue acts ax the same balancing factor.

 

Right. Now think about that for a second. In the typical game, there is a cop and no godfather. If a godfather is added, you've tilted the game in favor of the mafia, and you need to add something to the town to help rebalance it. Why? Because even though the godfather is, superficially, the "balancing role" for the cop, the fact is that a godfather on the mafia side is worth more than a cop on the town side.

 

Now, transfer that idea to your silver tongue/lie detector example: giving the town a lie detector and the scum a silver tongue, with no further balancing attempted, is - as you said - exactly like giving the town a cop and the scum a godfather, with no further balancing attempted: unbalanced in favor of the scum.

 

If all you do when thinking about balance is create roles for town and hand scum exceptions, odds are that while your roles might be balanced, superficially, your games won't be (except, occasionally, by accident). And with mafia, the only thing you care about in terms of setup, as a mod, is that the game is balanced.

 

Agree with Kiv - when you are balancing, too many mods go by "see-saw" balancing rules, and they need to be thinking about it more along the lines of tire balancing.

 

See-saw balancinf is essentially what Red described - if you give one side a roll, give the side a competing role. And like Kiv said - sometimes you get away with it. In fact, more often than not, mistakes in balance go unnoticed by anyone but the mod - it's one reason that we all started to post the game setups after we played, so that oterh mods could see what worked and what didn't. But I digress...

 

When a mechanic balances a tire for your car, they put it on a spindle and spin it - if it wobbles, it's unbalanced. Then they choose a lead weight (of various size) and hammer it onto the rim. This will counter the wobble, and the tire will turn smoothly, and last longer.

 

The same thing applies to a game - the mod has to spin that sucker by looking at all of the potentialities that could happen. Once you do this, you get a very, very good idea of what your game is set up to do and there won't be many surprises. A few signs that you didn't do this are 1.) a full PM box with complaints about how other players are being treated or how they are acting. 2.) Game apathy that doesn't recover (not the N3 lull that you know will pick up). 3.) A mis-balanced game can inadvertantly create hostility. Even a player that would never question a mod will still get angry and lash out if they sense that the game is unfair.

 

Anyway, you test it by lining up all of your roles and rndomly choosing a couple of night actions. See how the roles collide gainst one another. After a few rounds of this, you will see the dominant roles vs. the roles that are not as obviousy powerful. Rate them as such, and then use them like the lead weights - a small one for a little balance, and a big one for a lot of balance.

 

Last, never underestimate the power that the mafia holds being able to communicate. Too many games fly off the track as soon as mods throw in a few mason groups, lovers, and the like. Communication is a mighty tool.

 

 

 

[Sedai]

I prefer a Cupid role and a neighbor maker role. Where a player can choose who communicates with who. I find it to be more balanced then having it mod pre determined IMO.

[Hybrid]

Agree with Kiv - when you are balancing, too many mods go by "see-saw" balancing rules, and they need to be thinking about it more along the lines of tire balancing.

 

See-saw balancinf is essentially what Red described - if you give one side a roll, give the side a competing role. And like Kiv said - sometimes you get away with it. In fact, more often than not, mistakes in balance go unnoticed by anyone but the mod - it's one reason that we all started to post the game setups after we played, so that oterh mods could see what worked and what didn't. But I digress...

 

When a mechanic balances a tire for your car, they put it on a spindle and spin it - if it wobbles, it's unbalanced. Then they choose a lead weight (of various size) and hammer it onto the rim. This will counter the wobble, and the tire will turn smoothly, and last longer.

 

The same thing applies to a game - the mod has to spin that sucker by looking at all of the potentialities that could happen. Once you do this, you get a very, very good idea of what your game is set up to do and there won't be many surprises. A few signs that you didn't do this are 1.) a full PM box with complaints about how other players are being treated or how they are acting. 2.) Game apathy that doesn't recover (not the N3 lull that you know will pick up). 3.) A mis-balanced game can inadvertantly create hostility. Even a player that would never question a mod will still get angry and lash out if they sense that the game is unfair.

 

Agreed.

 

This is the reason my first and only modded game wasn't well balanced. One example: I decided that cult is overpowered in general¹ and attempted to limit it by making some roles unrecruitable. The problem was I didn't think this through -- and this is mostly due to complexity since there were simply too many outcomes to fully envision -- and waved off the scenario where the recruitable players died. My thought process being: it's highly unlikely to happen, so there's no reason to worry.

 

Of course, that's exactly what happened in the game, and the cult got screwed over.

 

In the future, if I mod again, I plan to stick to mostly standard games, with a few twists and maybe a bit of misdirection thrown in. More fun, easier to mod, and better for increasing mafia skills.

 

---

 

¹ As an aside, I still stand by this -- cults subtract from the town's numbers at the same time they add to their own, which makes them impossible to take down until the cult leader is taken out. One of my ideas for balancing is that when a cultist is lynched, the cult can't recruit the next night. Thoughts?

[Kivam]

recruiting groups are very hard to balance. At the start, they're tremendously weak (without recruits, a CL is a sitting duck), but they can become overpowered. Limits on recruitment are a good way to balance that - give them % chances of recruiting, or cap the total number of members they can have at any one time, etc. Also, you've got to worry about what happens if the town loses (and cult gains) a power role. You can make all cult recruits lose their powers, install backup roles that get triggered in case the town loses a key role, or simply make power roles less likely to be recruited (everyone else is a 50% chance of being recruited, they are 25%). Giving the cult a limited pool of players to recruit from is like doing a percentage limitation - but it has the flaw that you identified: what happens when that pool is thinned out?

[DPR]

recruiting groups are very hard to balance. At the start, they're tremendously weak (without recruits, a CL is a sitting duck), but they can become overpowered. Limits on recruitment are a good way to balance that - give them % chances of recruiting, or cap the total number of members they can have at any one time, etc. Also, you've got to worry about what happens if the town loses (and cult gains) a power role. You can make all cult recruits lose their powers, install backup roles that get triggered in case the town loses a key role, or simply make power roles less likely to be recruited (everyone else is a 50% chance of being recruited, they are 25%). Giving the cult a limited pool of players to recruit from is like doing a percentage limitation - but it has the flaw that you identified: what happens when that pool is thinned out?

 

I've always felt like the CL role is like throwing a ticking time-bomb into the game, and it's really only put to good use if the players are active, and clever. If that's the case, then announcing the presence of a CL in the OP is like saying "You have 3, maybe 4 nights to do this thing. I hope you brought your A game."

 

You can also have a game with two competeing cults, and leave the mafia out, which is kind of good practice for folks who haven't played with cults before.

 

 

 

[Verbal32]

for bastard games *cough* kivams police academy *cough* i'd love to try my hand at this style of modding one time just to see how it is. kivam's game was a blast as a player and i can only imagine the fun he had as a mod watching the confusion unfold as we found out just how many finders there were

 

I've been thinking about dusting off my bastard mod hat and having some fun with it. Not sure yet. I've got 1 17 player game that qualifies as bastard modding, and a few different mini games.

 

 

 

If all you do when thinking about balance is create roles for town and hand scum exceptions, odds are that while your roles might be balanced, superficially, your games won't be (except, occasionally, by accident). And with mafia, the only thing you care about in terms of setup, as a mod, is that the game is balanced.

 

Not sure I can measure the amount of emphasis I'd like to place on this paragraph. +8437594375

[ed2funy]

The only time I ever have was a broken post restriction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*hint: Click the smileys*

[WWWwombat]

The only time I ever have was a broken post restriction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*hint: Click the smileys*

 

I love reading my posts from that game :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[ed2funy]

hahaha, yea, I remember you were a bit crazy in that game.

[Alanna]

I was thinking more of a scenario where a player had to pull out when the game was well underway. It's tough for the replacement because they might be forced to justify their predecessor's actions, but I agree that game balance is more important.

 

Well, part of the problem is that this is happening way too much lately. People really need to think, when signing up for a game, if they should be able to stay in it for the probable duration of the game. Things come up unexpectedly, sure, but the number of players that need to be replaced in games lately is ridiculous. I think I had to replace 5 or 6 players in my 20-person Aiel game, and most of those were past Day 3.

 

another thing i have yet to see talked about is the fact that as a mod you need to consider 2 different types of balances when making a game. theres the town/anti-town balance; then theres the role balance. both of these are equally important to a game. for instance if you use a Lie Detector role you should balance it out with a Silver Tongue on the scum side. i think role balancing is where most of the newer mods get in trouble concerning balance, and it's easy enough to do. heck i've done it myself more times than i can count.

 

I think this has been covered, but yeah, it's all the same balance, it's the same thing. How the roles balance out determines how town/anti-town balance out. Town/antitown balance isn't just about numbers, it's about the roles. You can't look at them separately.

 

That's why, even if I do huge games with lots of roles, a lot of my roles will tend to be more "neutral" type roles, isntead of power roles. I don't know how a mod can throw all sorts of power roles into a game, even if it's on both sides, and call it balanced. I think balance usually just kind of goes out the window at the point. Unless it's a very, very experienced mod.

 

 

Last, never underestimate the power that the mafia holds being able to communicate. Too many games fly off the track as soon as mods throw in a few mason groups, lovers, and the like. Communication is a mighty tool.

 

The other thing I've seen, in underestimating mason groups, is giving members of mason groups power roles. I made this mistake in one of the first games I modded, and I suffered this mistake in a game by another mod when we killed the finder to keep him from revealing us (I was mafia), and his mason buddy was able to reveal us instead. Not cool.

 

I think sometimes newbie mods (and player) tend to see masons as vanilla townies, really, which is a big mistake.

 

There was totally something else I was going to say, and now I can't remember what it was. Boo.

[WWWwombat]

And then there was that one time when the masons had a finder and multiple resurrections *glares at Red*

 

:P

[Blackhoof]

Lol.

 

Wats bastard modding?

[WWWwombat]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bastard_Mod

 

Basically when the mod lies to players for teh lulz

[Blackhoof]

heh.

 

sounds fun.

 

like when alanna gave me and Jack False Doctor roles and didnt tell us that they did diddly and he got me lynched over it.

 

that was cool.

[Kivam]

That mason finder issue its another example of why I don't like town visible dead threads (which were in vogue for a bit) killing a player loses half its benefit if they can keep making deductions and suggestions

[Alanna]

heh.

 

sounds fun.

 

like when alanna gave me and Jack False Doctor roles and didnt tell us that they did diddly and he got me lynched over it.

 

that was cool.

 

Yep, that would be an example of bastard modding :D Ah, that was funny.

 

Yeah, I only like dead threads when they're private (QTs usually). They're more fun that way anyway, for the dead people, you can find out whatever you want from the mod and get it on what's going on behind the scenes.

[Red2111]

And then there was that one time when the masons had a finder and multiple resurrections *glares at Red*

 

:P

 

 

*snork* they only had one resurrection *bats eyelashes* it's the random vig kills that really mucked up the balance in that game *hides under Lily's skirt from Verb*

 

 

with a cult, i'd imagine another good way to balance this role would be to make some people un-recruitable. i do agree with recruits losing their powers. although in my HP game i tried out giving the power to the cult leader as a one shot that had to be used within a certian amount of days. but my "cult" leader was also the SK. he only had the option to recruit every 4th day; the rest was a kill instead. this was based off his character, being that Greyback was a werewolf and could "recruit" every full moon.

 

 

i want to give this role a try again; i'm thinking of a set up for this as well but have yet to plan it out or submit it. i'm just too buisy IRL, and here on DM atm to give a game the proper attentionit needs when modding.

 

 

as for see-sawing ... theres some roles you just have to counter balance. i agree givign the scum a Silver tounge is basically telling them "theres a LD" and giving them an edge. but an unchecked LD in a game can lead to major unbalance for the scum. i'm thinking mostly of Rey's game a few years ago honestly.