Demandred

[MasterAblar]

Evidence that he has been given some special task is his story in Lord of Chaos.

 

To me the mystery is what he was doing before that. What was he up to before the DO gave him that special task? The BT is only created in LoC, and Murandy becomes relevant in PoD I believe, so those two are ruled out. If he was released after tGH like Sammael and Bel'al then he had 3 books of freedom until he was given his task in LoC.

[yoniy0]

Right. And wasn't he someplace cold? It was already spring or summer in Randland, wasn't it, by TFoH?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Right. And wasn't he someplace cold? It was already spring or summer in Randland, wasn't it, by TFoH?

 

Yeah, DO induced heat at that time, so it does seem to suggest some place like Shara, Madmen or Seanchan. Or deep in the Blight/Borderlands.

 

So Demandred was likely somewhere cold, or he has a penchant for heat. The DO calls him up, and gives him a "special task". It seems that he drops his other work, or at least puts back to 2nd in priority (ha, it is kinda fitting, always his plans are 2nd) then I assume he returns to whatever it is he was doing, and "secures his rule".

 

Strange we see a glimpse of the Seanchan continent in FoH when Rand and Avi have their little escape. It is snowing and they nearly die of exposure.

 

We get Demandred saying his rule is secure in tGS, then in ToM, "a murderer ruled openly in Seandar."

 

Seems a bit suspicious to me.

[gloweye]

I think he has no alter ego altogether.. But he has numerous proxies, some knowing that they serve the shadow, and some not. Roedran might be one of them.

[Adam_a.west]

maybe been said, i read a few pages and didnt see it but Masema was visited by a forsaken presumably a male forsaken (demondred) who disguised himself as Rand. It could have been a black Ajah or asha man but i get the impression this is a glimpse of what demondred has been up too. Masema was making a deal with the Seanchan too who was influenced by Semirhage at the time. Semirhade is also an ally of Demondred. As far as i know Demondred Sammuel and Moridin are the only remaining male forsaken right? (Sammuel or someone pretending to be him)

[yoniy0]

I know I just posted elsewhere to remind someone of Brandon's saying it was a woman who impersonated Rand for Masema. And his more recent answer to Luckers, which makes it sound the charade began around the time Mohedien passed through Somara with Nynaeve and Elayne. Wasn't it in this thread? Never mind, the point is - we know it wasn't Demandred (though, for a time I think most of us had the same idea).

[TristanWebb]

I don't think Demandred is in Shara, no matter where the red veils come from. Graendal took the two leaders from them, two that had been in an unbroken line from the breaking. That kind of thing would probably ruin any chance of controlling them and Graendal wouldn't likely go close enough to Demandred's powerbase to steal the two leaders.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think Demandred is in Shara, no matter where the red veils come from. Graendal took the two leaders from them, two that had been in an unbroken line from the breaking. That kind of thing would probably ruin any chance of controlling them and Graendal wouldn't likely go close enough to Demandred's powerbase to steal the two leaders.

 

That's assuming Graendal isn't lying to Sammael. And assuming Shara has just been left since then. Also assuming Demandred has been "ruling" somewhere since before Graendal destroyed Shara (if indeed she did).

 

Not that I am saying Shara is likely, just that's a lot of assumption to rule it out.

[Finnssss22]

Just another little thing I picked up on my current re-read.

 

In Kod chapter 10 while Luca is speaking the praises of Lugard to keep the show moving after the dead village. Mat is recalling rumours of Lugard and its King, that the streets are filthy because the King doesn't have enough money to pay for it.

Yet later, we discover the King has paid the Band a years pay and more.

 

One could argue the King is just cheap but if that's the case why was he so generous with the Band.

Just another subtle hint that something is definitely going on in Murandy.

[Terez]

Something I noticed on my reread:

 

"Rooms," Moiraine said. "Yes. We will take rooms. The meal can wait. Ships. Nieda, what ships sail for Tear? Early on the morrow. I have that which I must do tonight." Lan glanced at her, frowning.

 

"For Tear, Mistress Mari?" Nieda laughed. "Why, none for Tear. The Nine did forbid any ship to sail for Tear a month gone now, nor any from Tear to call here, though I do think the Sea Folk pay it no mind. But there do be no Sea Folk ship in the harbor. It do be odd, that. The order of the Nine, I do mean, and the King silent on it, when he does always raise his voice if they but take a step without his lead. Or perhaps it be no that, exactly. All talk do be of war with Tear, but the boatmen and wagoneers who do carry supplies to the army do say the soldiers do all look north, to Murandy."

 

"The paths of the Shadow are tangled," Moiraine said in a tight voice. "We will do what we must. The rooms, Nieda. And then we will eat that meal."

[Finnssss22]

Something I noticed on my reread:

 

"Rooms," Moiraine said. "Yes. We will take rooms. The meal can wait. Ships. Nieda, what ships sail for Tear? Early on the morrow. I have that which I must do tonight." Lan glanced at her, frowning.

 

"For Tear, Mistress Mari?" Nieda laughed. "Why, none for Tear. The Nine did forbid any ship to sail for Tear a month gone now, nor any from Tear to call here, though I do think the Sea Folk pay it no mind. But there do be no Sea Folk ship in the harbor. It do be odd, that. The order of the Nine, I do mean, and the King silent on it, when he does always raise his voice if they but take a step without his lead. Or perhaps it be no that, exactly. All talk do be of war with Tear, but the boatmen and wagoneers who do carry supplies to the army do say the soldiers do all look north, to Murandy."

 

"The paths of the Shadow are tangled," Moiraine said in a tight voice. "We will do what we must. The rooms, Nieda. And then we will eat that meal."

 

 

Another good one.

All these subtle arrows pointing at Murandy.

[RandA lThor]

I still think that Demandred is one one of the Borderlanders kings, probably Paitar. this makes the most sense because I cannot imagine him masquerading as a girl and easar is too unlike demandred and too awesome. plus we already had ingtar being a darkfriend. He also has a lot of influence, and a huge army with him. It makes sense to me.

[Terez]

I still think that Demandred is one one of the Borderlanders kings, probably Paitar.

 

We gave you general direction on Demandred quotes earlier because there are just so many, but probably the most important ones are this:

 

1. Taim is not Demandred.

 

2. Demandred's alter ego has not been seen on screen, which rules out all of the Borderland rulers as of TPOD. There is a slim possibility that his alter ego was seen on screen in TGS, but it is a very slim possibility, and that is the only book where he possibly could have been seen on screen.

 

For various reasons, Roedran is the most viable option. For a breakdown of why, see this. (I need to add some quotes to it, but they are pretty minor; the major evidence is on there.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nice quotes Terez and Finnssss, I don't think there can be any doubt that Murandy is under the influence of the Shadow. The only question that remains is whether or not the King is actually Demandred, or is a proxy being used by Demandred.

[Terez]

I don't think that's really a question either, for reasons explained in my link above.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well I wouldn't say it made it out of the question, but it is a very good indication. It would indicative of Demandred's badass-ness really, since he hasn't created a stir like Be'lal, Rhavin or Sammael did with their respective nations. He at least had the sense to hide his presence from Rand, and the others are not really too suspicious of him. I mean, they say it is strange and all, but they don't all think "Hey, that looks like the work of the Forsaken!" And I am all for anything that improves Demandred's badassery.

 

I think that Demandred has been messing with the Ways also. As pointed out in other threads, Shadowspawn cannot be sent in large groups through the Ways due to Machin Shin. Fain was only attracted to it because it was similar to the Shadar Logoth power, as per RJ, he didn't have any actual control over it, I can't see why he would save Shadowspawn from it anyway.

 

I think this is one of the things Demandred has been doing, Cleansing the Ways, except, it wouldn't exactly be "cleansing", rather just making it safe for Shadowspawn. I think this would be a somewhat permanent thing, since I can't see him using a weave or something to fend of MS to protect Shadowspawn. I suppose there could be a heap of Dreadlords accompanying all these Shadowspawn movements, but I think it is something a bit more sinister than that.

[fionwe1987]

While a compelling case can be made for Demandred being Roedran from the books, I really resist that idea because it so doesn't fit Demandred's charatcter. Why exactly would he attatch himself to a flyspeck country that has undoubtedly the least powerful military in Randland? Would Demandred's ego allow him to spend two years in Murandy while Rand gains Tear, the Aiel, Cairhein, Andor, Illian and Arad Doman, not to mention starting the Black Tower?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Roedran was one of Demandred's proxies. But I can't for a minute believe that Demandred has it in him to be ruling a tiny country when all these great deeds are happening around him. If that turns out to be the extent of it, I think RJ really mis-wrote Demandred and his character.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I wouldn't be surprised if Roedran was one of Demandred's proxies. But I can't for a minute believe that Demandred has it in him to be ruling a tiny country when all these great deeds are happening around him. If that turns out to be the extent of it, I think RJ really mis-wrote Demandred and his character.

 

It definitely is not the extent of it. He received instructions from the Dark One, and he knows more than he is letting on. The DO said "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". Which is, of course, referring to Rand.

 

The Shadow wantedRand to conquer all of these nations. It was hardly a spectacularly triumphant thing. I mean, Rand did very well with what he had. But the Shadow is snickering behind his back. While Rand conquers nations, he drains their strength and they resist him, the Shadow is growing stronger, uncontested. The armies of Shadowspawn gathering in the Blight are unchecked while men are killing each other.

 

Demandred need only use Murandy as a staging area. He need only secure an area around a Waygate and Portal Stone, in Lugard and outer Murandy. The armies of men do not matter. Many of them would turn on the Forsaken when they realised they were fighting for the Shadow anyway, be it in Tear or the Two Rivers. The Forsaken have access to hordes of Shadowspawn, they don't need human armies. None of them would remain loyal when they start fighting alongside Trollocs and slaughtering people, not even fear could keep them in check. One or two people may be able to be controlled, but an army of thousands would resist.

 

Besides, even if it was the only thing he is up to, I think he has enough patience for it. Yes, he hates Rand more than anyone in the world, but that doesn't mean he would act rashly. He has spent most of his life hating Lews Therin, 400 years of always being beaten by him. He didn't turn to the Shadow until half way through the War of Power, which shows great restraint on his part. In the text there is evidence of his patience. While his hatred is over the top, it is not so irrational. He admits that Lews Therin was brilliant, just not as brilliant as himself. Saying something like that about someone you hate is indicative of solid reasoning. He hates Rand, but he is willing to wait to get his revenge.

 

I suppose you could say I was bias here, and probably am, but I prefer to think that this is the reason why I like the character, rather than making stuff up.

 

But there is definitely something more than Murandy going on with him, I agree

[mb]

Roedran was first mentioned in Shadow Rising.

None of the books tell that his raising was recent; that gives me the impression that he was raised before the start of the main series.

If Roedran was any of the Forsaken, I would guess that the first books that mention him would have told or implied suspicious behavior by him. I do not recall any such passage in those books.

 

If Demandred held some mainland capitol, my guess would be that Lanfear would have known and invited also him to her meeting (Fires of Heaven) and that he would be willing & able to come.

 

Demandred influencing Roedran I guess would be more likely than Demandred being Roedran.

[Terez]

Roedran was first mentioned in Shadow Rising.

None of the books tell that his raising was recent; that gives me the impression that he was raised before the start of the main series.

If Roedran was any of the Forsaken, I would guess that the first books that mention him would have told or implied suspicious behavior by him. I do not recall any such passage in those books.

He was introduced in TSR, but in TDR Sammael was secretly planning on attacking Murandy (while pretending to focus his efforts on Tear). In TFOH we get a glimpse of Murandy, and we see that it's a seedy place, and a nation that no one pays attention to for various reasons. A perfect place for a smart Forsaken to hide—a Forsaken that's not stupid enough to draw Rand's attention while he's trying to accomplish things. In LOC we get Sammael saying that events to the south have Demandred's mark all over them. The suspicious behavior begins in TPOD, incidentally right after Moridin returned. And most people would agree with you about it being more likely Roedran was a proxy if not for a combination of RJ and Brandon quotes that make it seem pretty certain that Demandred has a recognizable alter ego.

[RandA lThor]

Roedran is a good nominee for Demandred. My initial thought was paitar, but Demandred has not made an appearance as his alter ego, so it cannot be him. Roedran now makes the most sense as Demandred.

[cookiecrisp]

I think it's Roedran because of the golden pipe vision and Talmanes' golden pipe gift from him.

 

I wish it was Sylvase Caeran though. That would be hilarious and awesome.

[balefired-ed2]

While a compelling case can be made for Demandred being Roedran from the books, I really resist that idea because it so doesn't fit Demandred's charatcter. Why exactly would he attatch himself to a flyspeck country that has undoubtedly the least powerful military in Randland? Would Demandred's ego allow him to spend two years in Murandy while Rand gains Tear, the Aiel, Cairhein, Andor, Illian and Arad Doman, not to mention starting the Black Tower?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Roedran was one of Demandred's proxies. But I can't for a minute believe that Demandred has it in him to be ruling a tiny country when all these great deeds are happening around him. If that turns out to be the extent of it, I think RJ really mis-wrote Demandred and his character.

 

The bold statement bothers me. From everything we have heard of Murandy, I infer that they have one of the strongest military presences in Randland. They have managed to protect their sovereignty while bordering two of the stronger nations in Illian and Andor, and are said to be constantly warring within their own country. This leads me to believe that the country as a whole would have a larger number of experienced soldiers compared to other nations south of the borderlands.

 

Also, the population of Murandy is likely underestimated by most people. Murandy is the axle on which trade between many countries likely turns. With large lines of communication leading to Altara, Ghealdan, Illian, Andor, and Far Madding. Think of how much larger both the BotRH and SAS armies grew while slowly traveling through. I really think this country is analogous to the Holy Roman Empire, which had a large population but was highly divided and surrounded by more powerful enemies, Murandy having Andor and Illian, HRE having France and Poland-Lithuania.

[yoniy0]

There's good reason why Lanfear wouldn't have wanted Demandred for her TFoH plots. She didn't want Rand dead, only captured. Sammael she might contend with, but Demandred?

[Barid Bel Medar]

There's good reason why Lanfear wouldn't have wanted Demandred for her TFoH plots. She didn't want Rand dead, only captured. Sammael she might contend with, but Demandred?

 

Yeah, I agree. Everyone knows Demandred is hating Rand, he would not be one Lanfear would have turned to, even in the WoS. Besides, that was their little alliance, Sammael, Graendal, Rhavin, Lanfear, the others were not a part of it. Or else they would have called Semirhage or Mesaana, who would not go and kill Rand like Demandred, although I suppose that since they were a little alliance, Lanfear thought they might tell Demandred of the plot if they invited them.

 

Besides which, Sammael would likely not have come if Demandred went, they are not too fond of each other. And Graendal is all friends with Sammael, so *choosing* Demandred over Sammael would not have gone well with Graendal.

 

Ehh, Forsaken plotting, who knows? All signs point to Demandred not being the best person to help in keeping Rand alive.

 

Although to be fair to him, which I always am, he has done well resisting trying to kill Rand. He has not made a move to attack Rand (except for the cleansing, but that was an order, albeit one he would be all to happy to follow.) And he has supposedly been told to keep watch on Rand, which would make it difficult to resist the urge to kill. But of course, Lanfear wouldn't trust him to keep any word though, and its best not to put him in a position where Rand is defenceless in his hands.