Why Verin didn't want Mat at the battle of Caemlyn

[Louise]

I don't understand how she thought she might be able to come back. Clearly she thought that meeting with Egwene was the highest priority, yet she couldn't speak to Egwene until the hour of her death. How did she then plan to get back to Caemlyn and deal with the trolloc threat? (Assuming she isn't still truely BA)

I also don't believe Verin could actually have thought he'd open the letter. He is forever complaining about Aes Sedai and always states that he wants to be free of them. The LAST thing he would want to do is take a chance on opening a letter from an Aes Sedai, and risk getting dragged into another one of their schemes.

If she truely wanted to save Caemlyn, she could easily have warned Egwene instead, since she was then free of her oaths. Or as someone else said, she could have had Mat give the letter to Elayne.

The way she went about things made no sense whatsoever.

[FarShainMael]

I think we're ignoring that fact that she did after all warn Mat. If she wanted, she didn't have to tell him of the invasion in her note. There would have to be some reason for her to put it in writing but allow Mat the possibility of not reading it (for example, so that someone else would), if we wanted to assign her some dubious intentions.

 

I'm suggesting that she warned Mat because she wanted to pin him down at Caemlyn, keeping him away from the real action. And no, as I've said elsewhere (the 'Verin's gamble' thread), I don't think Caemlyn is burning.

[Mr Ares]

I don't understand how she thought she might be able to come back. Clearly she thought that meeting with Egwene was the highest priority, yet she couldn't speak to Egwene until the hour of her death. How did she then plan to get back to Caemlyn and deal with the trolloc threat? (Assuming she isn't still truely BA)

Suicide was plan B. Plan A involved removing the Oaths with the Oath Rod.

I also don't believe Verin could actually have thought he'd open the letter. He is forever complaining about Aes Sedai and always states that he wants to be free of them. The LAST thing he would want to do is take a chance on opening a letter from an Aes Sedai, and risk getting dragged into another one of their schemes.

If she truely wanted to save Caemlyn, she could easily have warned Egwene instead, since she was then free of her oaths. Or as someone else said, she could have had Mat give the letter to Elayne.

The way she went about things made no sense whatsoever.

Well, Verin hasn't exactly been spending a lot of time with Mat, has she? Remember, this was the guy who let curiosity overrule common sense in SL, and so ended up with the dagger. The man she knew was far more likely to have opened the letter. She underestimated his desire to be free of AS entanglements - given that desire, anything she asks of him he will see as onerous and to be avoided. That includes just giving the letter to Elayne without knowing what's in it. As for why she didn't tell Egwene, presumably she thought Egwene had enough on her plate. There's precious little point in writing letters if she just has to tell Egwene about them all anyway and get her to chase them all up.

[Louise]

Suicide was plan B. Plan A involved removing the Oaths with the Oath Rod.

Whoops, completely forgot about that!

 

As for why she didn't tell Egwene, presumably she thought Egwene had enough on her plate. There's precious little point in writing letters if she just has to tell Egwene about them all anyway and get her to chase them all up.

 

I just think that if Verin's intentions were 100% pure she would have wanted to know for sure that her warning had been recieved, personally I think she could have gone about it in a much more direct way.

[cmsnaith]

I don't think Verin misread Mat at all. I actually think she was entirely right about Mat. Under any other circumstances, I think Mat would have opened that letter after all. But what Verin hadn't anticipated was that the Pattern required him elsewhere, and so strengthened his resolve not to open the letter.

 

The Pattern needed Mat to free Moiraine, and it required that of him just at that time. Perhaps the Pattern also required Caemlyn to suffer this trolloc attack. So, it heightened Mat's desire to be rid of AS entanglements and lessened his curiosity. In this way the Pattern achieves its goals.

 

I don't think Verin could have anticipated this. She had his word that he would be there for 20 days. She knew he wouldn't break his word. She also had little other choices because events were moving more swiftly than she expected. She had other priorities. I think she pegged him right, and her plan was solid, except for the snag that it didn't match the Pattern's plan.

[Lisa Campbell]

Verin originally wanted Mat to promise to wait 10 days, open the letter and follow her instructions therein.

 

Because of his wariness of Aes Sedai he refuses and she asks him to promise to stay in Caemlyn for 50 days (I guess that she thinks that the invasion will happen by then and he will be there to either assist Elayne or save the day in the event of her absence). Mat refuses to promise that too so they haggle and agree on Mat and the Band staying in Caemlyn for thirty days, or him waiting the original ten days, then opening the letter and following her instructions. You might recall that 30 days suited Mat anyway because he wanted to research the Tower of Genji and start the ball rolling on the manufacture of Aludra's Dragons.

 

Verin misjudged Mat's curiosity vs/ his desire to be free of Aes Sedai strings, thinking his curiosity would win out, but I think she really did want to stop the invasion or at least reduce the damage.

[Orderofolde]

Verin originally wanted Mat to promise to wait 10 days, open the letter and follow her instructions therein.

 

Because of his wariness of Aes Sedai he refuses and she asks him to promise to stay in Caemlyn for 50 days (I guess that she thinks that the invasion will happen by then and he will be there to either assist Elayne or save the day in the event of her absence). Mat refuses to promise that too so they haggle and agree on Mat and the Band staying in Caemlyn for thirty days, or him waiting the original ten days, then opening the letter and following her instructions. You might recall that 30 days suited Mat anyway because he wanted to research the Tower of Genji and start the ball rolling on the manufacture of Aludra's Dragons.

 

Verin misjudged Mat's curiosity vs/ his desire to be free of Aes Sedai strings, thinking his curiosity would win out, but I think she really did want to stop the invasion or at least reduce the damage.

People are overthinking this. Verin wanted Mat to wait to open the letter after 10 days or remain for 50, then 30. Either way verin covered her bases. If Matt opened the letter, he would have the Waygate destroyed or guarded. If he didn't open it and waited 30 days he and his Band would be there to assist in the city's defenses. Either way, Verin NEEDED Matt/the Band to be in Caemlyn, and through her Aes Sedai trickery she exchanged Matt the time he needed in the city with moving probably the finest army we've yet seen fielded in Randland outside of the Seanchan and the Aiel. Even should Matt himself not be there, Talmanas and Deirid (sp?) grew the band by several banners and not only ensured they had gold to spare, but obtained the crossbow cranks. Verin was shedding her cloak of the Dark One and returning to the light, though she never really strayed too far from it as a Darkfriend.

 

We also see too but I haven't seen it mentioned too much that the pattern forced Verin to find Matt/Matt's Taveren pull ensnared her because he needed a gateway and she needed to move on with her plotting and righting things for the Light. They needed each other.

[yoniy0]

Everything would've been so much better if she didn't require him to follow her directions in case he opens the letter. Anyone believes that he wouldn't have told Elayne? By making him swear he'd do as she instructed, Verin made sure Mat would never open the letter. Whether she knew that is irrelevant; the risk was foolish and unnecessary.

[Mr Ares]

On the other hand, as Mat's objection to opening the letter was to avoid AS strings, then he has reason to not open it even if he's not obliged to follow through. He'd likely still want to avoid opening it so he doesn't get stuck with Verin giving him some time consuming mission that he feels obliged to carry out. "Dear Matrim, women are in danger. Please save them. Regards, Verin."

[yoniy0]

That's not contradictory to what I suggested. Not obliging him to follow her instructions might not be enough to persuade him to open the letter, but it couldn't hurt.

[Louise]

We also see too but I haven't seen it mentioned too much that the pattern forced Verin to find Matt/Matt's Taveren pull ensnared her because he needed a gateway and she needed to move on with her plotting and righting things for the Light. They needed each other.

But she only had a chance (and a small one at that) of gaining Mat's help. Her need coincided with Moiraine's need and I'd back Mat chosing Moiraine 10 times out of 10. Especially with the way Verin went about enlisting his help. Also Moiraine has a big part to play in the LB as Rand will 'almost certainly fail without her.' I'd think that the Pattern would be pulling Mat towards Moiraine rather than Andor.

 

Everything would've been so much better if she didn't require him to follow her directions in case he opens the letter. Anyone believes that he wouldn't have told Elayne? By making him swear he'd do as she instructed, Verin made sure Mat would never open the letter. Whether she knew that is irrelevant; the risk was foolish and unnecessary.

 

Hear Hear! That is exactly why I'm still confused about her intentions. I don't think that she was still working for the Shadow per se, but as you said WHY TAKE THE RISK?!?!

 

Regardless of how much time she's spent with Mat, he makes it pretty clear to the whole world how he feels about Aes Sedai. IMO, one wouldn't have to spend much time at all with Mat to know how he feels. Verin is certainly not stupid, I don't think she would have missed this. I also don't believe that she is one to take such a ridiculous, and potentially devastating risk... the stakes are too high.

[Hybrid]

I really hope it's not because Verin's plan was a Xanatos Roulette or even a Xanatos Gambit. She's pretty awesome but it would be well nigh unbelievable that she would be able to perfectly steer the good guys to victory post-mortem because she learned Shai'tan's entire battle plan while working undercover as a Darkfriend.

[Mr Ares]

We also see too but I haven't seen it mentioned too much that the pattern forced Verin to find Matt/Matt's Taveren pull ensnared her because he needed a gateway and she needed to move on with her plotting and righting things for the Light. They needed each other.

But she only had a chance (and a small one at that) of gaining Mat's help. Her need coincided with Moiraine's need and I'd back Mat chosing Moiraine 10 times out of 10. Especially with the way Verin went about enlisting his help. Also Moiraine has a big part to play in the LB as Rand will 'almost certainly fail without her.' I'd think that the Pattern would be pulling Mat towards Moiraine rather than Andor.

It's not an either/or situation - helping Verin did not preclude him helping Moiraine.

 

Everything would've been so much better if she didn't require him to follow her directions in case he opens the letter. Anyone believes that he wouldn't have told Elayne? By making him swear he'd do as she instructed, Verin made sure Mat would never open the letter. Whether she knew that is irrelevant; the risk was foolish and unnecessary.

 

Hear Hear! That is exactly why I'm still confused about her intentions. I don't think that she was still working for the Shadow per se, but as you said WHY TAKE THE RISK?!?!

 

Regardless of how much time she's spent with Mat, he makes it pretty clear to the whole world how he feels about Aes Sedai. IMO, one wouldn't have to spend much time at all with Mat to know how he feels. Verin is certainly not stupid, I don't think she would have missed this. I also don't believe that she is one to take such a ridiculous, and potentially devastating risk... the stakes are too high.

What risk? It's the same either way. If she gives him the letter, there is always a risk he won't open it, and a risk that if he does he won't follow through on the instructions. Bearing in mind she hasn't spent all that much time with him, she can't be expected to be able to precisely judge his character. What does she have to go on? Rumours, and the boy she knew who wandered off in Shadar Logoth and picked up a dagger. Evidently someone who can keep his curiosity in check. Mat doesn't want to get caught up in AS webs. That's true no matter what she asks of him and how she asks. The alternative is to give it to someone more trusting than Mat. Making him promise to follow through on the instructions helps to underline their importance. If you don't do that you increase the chances Mat will ignore the letter.

[yoniy0]

What risk? [...] Making him promise to follow through on the instructions helps to underline their importance. If you don't do that you increase the chances Mat will ignore the letter.

Okay, that's possible, but unlikely in my opinion. It's interesting enough, and lacking a good reason to leave it untouched he would've opened it.

Also, you can't deny that it does deter him from opening it (and would any average man). Hence the 'risk'. Would you at least admit that much?

[Rufae]

I am of the opinion that Verin intentionally created a Luck Situation with Mat and trusted his "Dice" to point him in the best direction. By keeping it vague and setting up this Choice A or Chioce B situation, she let the Pattern take control rather than what she thought best.

 

I don't think Verin wanted to turn away the trolloc force from Camelyn by destroying or locking the Waygate. What would have happened? The trolloc army would have detoured and attacked somewhere else completely unknown like Cairhienin, Tear or even Tar Valon. It is better to allow the attack to happen but be ready with a good counter punch and destroy the trolloc army. A known danger is better than an unknown danger.

[FarShainMael]

Who, besides Mat himself, knows about his 'dice'? No-one, AFAICS. Not even Tuon.

[Mr Ares]

What risk? [...] Making him promise to follow through on the instructions helps to underline their importance. If you don't do that you increase the chances Mat will ignore the letter.

Okay, that's possible, but unlikely in my opinion. It's interesting enough, and lacking a good reason to leave it untouched he would've opened it.

Also, you can't deny that it does deter him from opening it (and would any average man). Hence the 'risk'. Would you at least admit that much?

I'd say that Mat did have a good reason to leave it untouched, at least in his own mind. And while there is an element of deterence in forcing him to follow through on her instructions if he opens the letter, she did try to minimise this - "I doubt you will find my instructions harsh, Matrim". I'm just not convinced that forcing him to make that promise involves a significantly higher risk of Mat not opening than not making him make that promise.

[Taelin]

Shortly after Dumai's Wells, Verin is interviewing the Aes Sedai captured in the battle, making notations in her little notebook she later gave to Egwene. She states in her thoughts that she had made a mistake once (probably when she was forced to become BA) and wanted to make sure she never did again. In the writing world this is called foreshadowing, meaning the author is hinting at events coming later in the story. RJ at that point was letting us know that she would make another mistake. We had already been given hints that she was BA through lies and her knowing Ingtar was a DF, and RJ fulfilled that foreshadowing with a twist. In her letter, she clearly states that she was counting on Mat's curiosity to get him to open the letter early. Since she didn't know about Mat's dedications to his promises (clearly illustrated in Salidar) she made a mistake, with the destruction of Caemlyn being the price (remember Egwene's vision when testing for accepted? Caemlyn was in ruins). Foreshadowing fulfilled

[Crusader12]

 

As for why she didn't tell Egwene, presumably she thought Egwene had enough on her plate. There's precious little point in writing letters if she just has to tell Egwene about them all anyway and get her to chase them all up.

 

I just think that if Verin's intentions were 100% pure she would have wanted to know for sure that her warning had been recieved, personally I think she could have gone about it in a much more direct way.

 

I don't think that would have been possible. She was still under oath to the DO at the time and so obviously could not just come straight out and tell him (or anyone) in any kind of direct way. She just didn't have any choice in the matter. It had to be something that would not be a direct intervention on the side of the Light, but somehow calculated to turn into a good act in the end. If she even tried to say something directly, her tongue simply would not have made the noises needed to communicate, or her hand would have stopped moving the pen across the parchment of its own volition. Who knows, maybe she even tried. Though I think by now she had enough experience of what an oath would and wouldn't allow her to do that she would not have bothered.

 

Compare it to an AS being cornered into having to answer a question that she can't answer truthfully because it would harm her goals, but being bound to the 3 oaths, and having to figure out some way to give an answer that is not un-true, and will satisfy the questioner, while still causing a chain of events that will lead toward her goal in the end. In fact, that example even points up the fact that, as an AS, this is exactly how she has trained herself to think for the last 100+ years, so it's pretty well given that this type of thought process would be how she would naturally operate.

[Crusader12]

As to the poll question, I don't really have an answer. I can see a lot of good ideas and arguments in this thread. I particularly agree with the idea that Verin, knowing of Mat's Ta'Veren luck (whether she knew of the dice or not, she certainly knew of the luck) did her best to put two options in front of Mat, each having to do with a direly important situation, and let the pattern pick which one he was most needed at. And yes, the point that was made about Verin and Mat being drawn together (like a hook in her stomach gently, yet insistently pulling is how I believe it was described) is important. She knew that the pattern had something in store and that her own plans would only prove fruitful if she went with the flow and tried to help it along (with a little subtle guidance) rather than trying to force it in a certain direction.

 

This is probably the most subtle AS we've seen in the entire series, and one with what appears to me to be among the best understandings of the nature of the Wheel & of Ta'Veren (she did make it one of her special research projects) and so one of the best able to accomplish such a maneuver where others might have been too overt and forced things too much, resulting in simply being run over by the Pattern. She was going to play a role in Mat's near future one way or the other (the Pattern made sure of that) and she did a good job of using what knowledge of Mat she did have.

 

I also see some merit in the argument that she did have a plan and it was foiled. I think she saw that quite clearly as soon as Mat refused to go along with Plan A of his opening the letter after 10 days. That's why her Plan B was more malleable and ready for that TV luck to do its work.

 

Most of all, I think RJ groomed this to be a character who is easily overlooked, always a little under suspicion, but for those paying the most attention to the undercurrents of her activities, recognizable as one of the greatest minds of Randland. I think that she knew enough to know what she wasn't capable of, and was humble enough to use that knowledge to her advantage.

 

btw, that actually brings a related topic to mind. In a separate thread, someone mentioned Randlanders being added to the Heroes of the Horn, and the idea that no one had ever heard of an AS connected to the horn. Well, if Verin's intentions truly were pure, I'd say she stands a decent chance of winning this honor--first risking her own soul and hopes of salvation & rebirth by taking on the role of "mole" inside the BA, then giving her life to make good on the life's work she had done and giving the Light one of its most valuable weapons against the shadow (her notebooks). Man wouldn't her story make an interesting read.

[kght22]

she clearly wanted the band to be there, or in mid transport when the attack happened, but that is only assuming that she knew the day of the attack. any further ideas from a brilliant mind like that is just guessing. for an aes sedai, verin makes cadsuane look like a little girl in pigtails. (well at least so far, who knows what kind of stuff is locked in that old ladies noggin)

 

sam makes a great point, verin could have made it very hard for the trolloc army to get through the gate all by herself, including lacing it with a large number of traps and removing the leaves. at the same time how much free will did she really have at that point, it could be possible that the shadow made her keep mat there. or stopped her from stopping the invasion.

[yoniy0]

Consider that a guard of several men might not be enough to stop an invasion, but definitely enough to stop Verin from laying more layers of protection without betraying her secrets.

[kght22]

Consider that a guard of several men might not be enough to stop an invasion, but definitely enough to stop Verin from laying more layers of protection without betraying her secrets.

she could have said something to egwene about it as well, while betraying all secretes. if she was worried about it only takes a second to tell egwene to watch out for the caemlyn waygate. she likely didn't know where that waygate was, so couldn't screw with it, if she did she could have shredded anyone in there (same op level and moiraine and nothing to stop her from killing but herself) but yes your point has merit, but either way something like that impending could have been told to eqwene unless she didn't WANT to tell eqwene. and verin even makes a sideways mention of things in plural that she had perhaps set in motion. i think that if any of those things had been in favor of the dark, she would have practically screamed them.

[yoniy0]

Yes, she could've. I was just trying to explain why she didn't do anything about it herself (beside the fact that she was apparently busy). By the way, she's not as strong with the Power as Moiraine and Siuan were. Very few (perhaps as little as five) reached that level of strength before the TEoTW.

[kght22]

i'm pretty sure verin was one of those that cadsuane was talking about in new spring. maybe not, but verin was far from weak in the one power. even without her little amber angreal

 

(EDIT)said the eye of the world instead of new spring, woops(/EDIT)