The Lanfear Appreciation Thread

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Anyway, I think that everybody would have at least just said nothing if Emu had not said:

In another story, under another author, she could easily be the protagonist of a great work of epic fantasy

I doubt it. Some folks just seem to go looking for a fight. Anyhow, when I said that, I definitely had in mind the more ethically complex protagonists of contemporary fantasy--under, say, a Neil Gaiman--than I did a proverbial goody-two-shoes like Frodo Baggins. It takes surprisingly little (mainly because there's so little about Mierin written in the books) to recast her as someone who's walking a very similar road to Rand except within the realm of the Shadow, and who, like Rand, has a lot of wrongs and mistakes behind her (except worse).

 

Indeed, I'm surprised that particular statement stood out to you as something that would have been uncontroversial. For it to strike controversy, folks would have to be almost completely unfamiliar with the modern vogue of fantasy writers delving into the ethical base of their "good guys."

 

To Suttree, the more controversial quote wasn't even in this thread, but in another one, where I described Mierin's background as noble and humanistic. Now, Suttree has a one-dimensional view of the character and sees her as some kind of Nazi (I think it was Suttree who violated Godwin's Law upthread; maybe it was someone else), so of course anyone with such a black and white view would be facepalming at the opinion of somebody who came along and started pointing out the positive sides of the character. His mistake, and the mistake of others, has been to assume that their opinions are binding on the readership.

[Suttree]

In the end, there is nothing in the books that provides solid evidence that Mierin has always been evil.

 

Ah but that isn't what I requested was it? In responding to Emu's post in which she asked me to be more specific I asked for textual evidence backing up her claim that.

 

Mierin has made mostly honest, ethical, and consistent choices over the course of her life, and has demonstrated a strong humanistic impulse.

 

Even assuming all the info about Lanfear in the BWB is dead wrong(it was a work meant to flesh out our understanding of RJ's world and as such obvs isn't) when combining textual evidence and author interviews there is a clear picture supporting my interpretation. All I ask is to show us the evidence supporting Emu's theory. She made some very pointed and fleshed out observations in relation to Lanfear's character so providing evidence of how she reached that conclusion shouldn't be all that difficult.

[dutchman1789]

Can we trust RJ's quote on Lanfear? If he had a redemption planned for her he may have lied to mislead us.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

and if he's anything like tolkien, his worlds kept evolving forever, and his ideas kept changing.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Can we trust RJ's quote on Lanfear? If he had a redemption planned for her he may have lied to mislead us.

 

It's possible. Indeed, this is what I would prefer. But I don't think it's actually very likely. RJ was fond of RAFOing stuff, even stuff with no bearing on the plot. He was also somebody who liked to trick us with the truth. RJ made these candid comments on Mierin, where one might expect a RAFO instead if he were planning to redeem her, and if these candid comments were an outright lie it would have been quite out of character for him. More likely, I think, if she is to be redeemed, is that he's been telling us the truth all along and we just haven't figured out yet how it's going to come about.

 

and if he's anything like tolkien, his worlds kept evolving forever, and his ideas kept changing.

I wouldn't bet on it. All of the stuff suggesting that Mierin is a redeemable character comes from the first five books (and her brief POV in WH). Whatever he had in mind for her, he probably had in mind right from the beginning. I guess it's possible that his views of her context had evolved, but we'll have to wait for AMoL for the opportunity to see if we can discern such.

 

Edited for clarity.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Edited to remove double post.

[Jimvzyl]

Up to this time, the denizens of the world had only to deal with the evil within themselves. If motivations for war and hate were removed, then so were the resultant activities. The Bore changed all of that. Like a small finger hole in a prison wall, the Bore was not large enough to allow the Dark One's escape, but it was large enough to allow him to touch the world. His touch subtly altered everything that came within its influence. All the baser motivations and emotional problems of mankind were enhanced and manipulated, enlarging envy, greed, and anger despite lack of any true motivating factors. All those dissatisfied with their lot in life felt that dissatisfaction intensify. Thievery, assault, murder, and even wars began to appear with increasing frequency.

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wheeloftime/Chapter%204.htm

 

My apologies, as I doubt the above is canon, but if you will entertain my thoughts- RJ's statement that Mieren was "ripe for the plucking" cannot be considered as proof of her already being evil or predisposed towards becoming evil prior to the drilling of the bore, but rather that her emotional state and resentment towards her lack of recognition (by either LTT or those who would don her with a new name) allowed the subtle influence of the DO (that was spreading through the world in general) to take hold and accentuate those attributes and turn them towards hatred.

 

I can't recall the precise situation but one of the Forsaken mocks Lanfear, can't be accurate here, but he mentions that she came whenever LTT crooked his finger and left pouting and sulking whenever he sent her away. Lanfear responds by saying Rand is not LTT, merely LTT reborn. This would have obviously been prior to her going over to the Forsaken. (I know its mockery, and perhaps false, but true mockery is usually true. The truth hurts :))

 

So from an AoL perspective. We see an ambitious, resentful, sulky scholar. Hardly crimes in themselves, and probably wouldn't have ever manifested into something else. The touch of the DO influenced many many people turning them towards violence, selfish acts, torture, rebellion and anarchy. I don't want to defend Lanfear with her saying, 'The DO made me do it' but i though the passage was interesting enough to bring into discussion.

[Suttree]

To Suttree, the more controversial quote wasn't even in this thread, but in another one, where I described Mierin's background as noble and humanistic. Now, Suttree has a one-dimensional view of the character and sees her as some kind of Nazi (I think it was Suttree who violated Godwin's Law upthread; maybe it was someone else), so of course anyone with such a black and white view would be facepalming at the opinion of somebody who came along and started pointing out the positive sides of the character. His mistake, and the mistake of others, has been to assume that their opinions are binding on the readership.

 

Lovely, still not willing to address the issues at hand or have a constructive debate on what shaped your theory? I do see you continue to ascribe false views on others however in an attempt to discredit their posts. I neither described Lanfear as a Nazi or view her in black and white terms. Far from assuming my opinions are binding on the readership, all I have done is show how my opinion of her was shaped, and point out evidence calling in to question claims made about her character. If only you would do the same this thread might actually progress into something worthwhile.

 

My apologies, as I doubt the above is canon, but if you will entertain my thoughts- RJ's statement that Mieren was "ripe for the plucking" cannot be considered as proof of her already being evil or predisposed towards becoming evil prior to the drilling of the bore, but rather that her emotional state and resentment towards her lack of recognition (by either LTT or those who would don her with a new name) allowed the subtle influence of the DO (that was spreading through the world in general) to take hold and accentuate those attributes and turn them towards hatred.

 

Here is the entire quote...

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

[randsc]

There is no textual support for the notion that Lanfear has made mostly honorable and ethical choices over the course of her life. None. Not a single piece.

 

There is significant textual support for the notion that she is among the worst of the Foresaken. Among the worst, of the most evil group of people ever.

 

The statements of the author are not canon, and don't really add much to Suttree's argument for that reason. But he doesn't need them; the text supports his interpretation.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i appreciate lanfear because she has the coolest name of any forsaken except moridin, and cause she hooked rand up with poor asmodean, which was good for rand, and for interweb fandom.

 

but i've always had a nagging fear that she was named cyndane (last chance) in reference to something horrible i may have typed that RJ might have read... yeah, that's how self centered i am. see, it all fits

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

The Forsaken in general have great names. Lanfear has "fear" right there in it. Be'lal and Sammael bring about connotations of biblical wrath. Semirhage not only looks cool as a written word, but sounds like "hemorrhage," perhaps a nod to her gruesome line of work as an evil doctor. Moghedien is like "Armageddon." Demandread is both demanding and dreadful. Graendal is phonetically identical to the classic English-language fantasy monster.

 

One of my favorite things about the series is actually how great the Forsakens' Forsaken names are.

[Thor]

Look you can argue whether or not Lanfear sucks or whatever, but the fact is she has no Third Name, therefore she could not have been anywhere near as accomplished as others in her time. Even Asmodean had a Third Name for his musical performance ability.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

just sayin it's a cool name. i don't care if she had a third name. i don't care if she was accomplished. hell, the OP didn't care if she was anything but hot and dangerous. it's the lanfear appreciation thread, so i tried to stay on topic. the lanfear roast is next week.

[Jimvzyl]

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

His touch subtly altered everything that came within its influence. All the baser motivations and emotional problems of mankind were enhanced and manipulated, enlarging envy, greed, and anger despite lack of any true motivating factors. All those dissatisfied with their lot in life felt that dissatisfaction intensify. Thievery, assault, murder, and even wars began to appear with increasing frequency.

 

These two statements don't see eye to eye for me. It's difficult to understand what 'ripe for the Shadow's plucking' means in the top quote. Does it mean she was inherently predisposed to the DO because of her resentment, anger and hate? Or does it mean that she was vulnerable to the touch of the DO because she was resentful and sulky?

 

Lets analyse.

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore

Note, he's talking about Lanfear being twisted by the DO prior to the bore being drilled, as in - against her will. Most arguments we see never state that she was coerced into joining the DO. She did so freely.

I'm just arguing that as below states

His touch subtly altered everything that came within its influence.

 

Is it beyond the realm of though to believe that the DO's touch subtely altered Lanfears resentment towards jealousy and hate? I don't see why not.

 

So again, I'm not sure if it is canon- but there are factors here that allow for one to argue through RJ's quote.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I discovered an old document with plenty of notes on this subject, which I had been preparing for a substantive post here on Dragonmount at some point. I figure instead I'll just post them here for anyone interested. Maybe after AMoL if the character is still compelling I'll revisit the topic with full scholarly essay rigors--including footnotes, which should stir joy in the hearts of all those kindly folks who like to harass people who don't post bibliographies with their analysis.

 

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

I have always had a sympathetic view of Mierin Eronaile. We all have our favorite characters in the series, and she is mine. But that means The Wheel of Time has been a rough ride for me. Robert Jordan made her his punching bag in so many ways.

 

First, he weighed her down with the baggage of Eve, the woman who brought corruption into paradise and single-handedly spoiled the future for every human being. Second, he did so by turning the ideals of sexual equality and humanism on their heads. Mierin was an ambitious and powerful individual searching for a way for humans to become even greater (humanism), by surmounting the fundamental divide between the sexes (feminism). Her ambition failed in the worst way possible.

 

Third, he saddled her with the onus of unrequited love, assuring that her other major ambition would also be thwarted when Lews Therin inevitably spurned her. Fourth, Rand spurned her too. Worst of all on these two counts is the fact that Mierin is written as self-defeating: RJ explains, through Rand, that she failed to win the Dragon's love in return because her own character flaws elicited disgust in him—establishing her as beneath him in character integrity.

 

Fifth, her still-plausible dream of winning over Rand and forging her own destiny was dashed by Moiraine, who saw that possible future and refused to let it come to pass.

 

Sixth, she got put in a mindtrap—the worst punishment possible for someone as driven as she. Well, perhaps the second worst: Seventh, she is apparently tortured to the limits of her existence on a regular basis, if her plight in the ToM epilogue is genuine. This is a punishment so brutal that the same person who once dreamed of supplanting the Creator and the Dark One now wishes for death. If she really means that, then it looks like her spirit has finally been broken.

 

Mierin has yet to succeed at anything in life. Her whole life is one big history of failure due to factors outside her control. I can't help but remember that she never got a third name in the Age of Legends, which is a fitting metaphor for her failure to achieve the success that by all rights should have been hers. Some people are just born under the wrong star...or perhaps born in the wrong universe altogether.

 

The bottom line is that we're heading into the endgame and Mierin's story is still one big question mark. I think Robert Jordan had one of two possible intentions for this character. One possibility is that he intended everything to be taken at face value, in which case she is truly a wretch on every conceivable level. She would be one of those people who casts a pall on the concept of “the Creator” being a benevolent entity, because she is born into a universe where, if she is true to herself, she can't hope to win...can't hope for fulfillment or satisfaction. Mierin herself probably drew this conclusion ahead of her eventual, reluctant defection to the Shadow. “Screw the Light; all it can do is make me suffer.” Thus she went with the devil she didn't know, rather than the one she did.

 

The other possibility is that RJ has been setting her up for some kind of great justice or redemption. Is there a place in Robert Jordan's universe for a character like Mierin to actually succeed? Probably not, and I'll be very impressed and humbled if the ol' bagpipe had it in him to give her such a satisfying resolution. But there may very well be room in his universe for a character like Mierin to undergo a positive character transformation, essentially shedding her previous identity in favor of one that is indeed compatible with the Light. That's still an injustice, but at least it offers redemption from the fate of spending oblivion with the Dark One.

 

I'm sympathetic to Mierin not only because I'm sympathetic to her original ambitions, but also because, under the care of another author, somebody like her could easily be the series protagonist. It always seemed to me that RJ was toying with us, writing this character who is a total loser yet somehow isn't evil. My suspicions were heightened when Cyndane arrived on the scene, yet had nothing significant to do until—well, until the ToM epilogue. It's been all this time (in terms of WoT books), and only now does her existence tempt to rise above that of Worthless Reincarnated Forsaken. I always knew her story wasn't finished yet, but I've never known—and I still don't—whether Robert Jordan's intention for Mierin was to keep her evil to the very end and punish her yet again, this time once and for all in the climax of the Last Battle, or bring her back to the Light by forcing her down the path of tremendous suffering in order to cleanse her of her supposed wrongdoings.

 

Cyndane's appearance in the ToM epilogue gives us a lot to think about, and what follows are some of my musings on this wonderful character. This is, after all, the Lanfear appreciation thread. So, if Lanfear's not your thing, just slap a big ol' “TL;DR” on this post and move along. =)

 

 

Was Lews Therin Wrong About Mierin?

 

Rand meets Lanfear in TFoH and experiences memories of Lews Therin's life together with Mierin Eronaile. He insults her, unbidden, saying that ambition was all there was to her, that she never cared about anything but having more power. And we took that assessment to be both true and unflattering. After all, Mierin is one of the Forsaken, and, moreover, she had preposterously desired to use the CK to supplant the twin deities of the universe—which would be anathema to both followers of the Light and followers of the Shadow.

 

But maybe Lews Therin got it wrong. We see plenty of evidence for it, evidence which suggests Mierin's character integrity is not so bad, and evidence which suggests Lews Therin's character integrity is not so good.

 

In that same scene in TFoH, Mierin looks sincere in saying that she loves him. Regardless of the stage act she has put on about competing with Lews Therin (which is a natural reaction when one is spurned by somebody one cares about, and is also natural in a rivalry), in that brief moment of stupefied recognition, recognition that Rand al'Thor harbors the essence of Lews Therin Telamon within him, Mierin puts her hands on her stomach in shock and her first impulse is to plead with him: “I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!” For a moment, her perfidious Lanfear persona fades completely. This makes it seem as though Lews Therin was wrong in his assessment of Mierin’s feelings for him, if not necessarily his assessment of her nature (although we'll get to that).

 

In another scene, Graendal mocks Mierin by saying that Mierin would act like a rug if Lews Therin merely suggested it, implying something else altogether than the “I'm only using this guy to advance myself” notion which Lews Therin himself believed. It's possible that Graendal was lying about the nature of Mierin feelings in order to make a better insult, but, given Mierin’s reaction, it's also quite possible that Graendal was speaking honestly, if with some exaggeration.

 

Mierin-as-Cyndane's own point of view—the only Mierin POV in the whole series up to this point—affirms that she had been sincere. We may yet scoff at her plans to actually supplant the Dark One and the Creator, but she reaffirms in her own mind that she was sincere in her hope that Rand would join her, not as a stooge but as a partner.

 

All of this suggests that LTT was wrong about Mierin regarding her love for him, and that Rand was wrong about her too when he bought into LTT's perspective and took Lanfear the Forsaken at face value.

 

As a Forsaken, Lanfear did a lot to disabuse us as readers of the notion that she is playing for the Shadow. She says she doesn't kill, or even hurt, except when she “must.” As Sylvie, she demonstrates remarkable awareness of the pettiness and self-absorption which has dominated the Forsaken and tarnished them as a threatening antagonist force. She is openly contemptuous of Ishamael, and her affirmation of her service to the Dark One himself comes across as perfectly insincere. She says she doesn't use the Soulless, and presumably this extends to many of the viler methods of the Shadow. In Rand's trip through the columns, we learn that at least some of those who knew Mierin before she had gone over to the Shadow had served her well, and remembered her favorably.

 

In fact, in the entire series, Mierin only does three truly deplorable things. First, she swears to the Shadow. Second, as a governor in the Age of Legends, we are told she brutalized people in their dreams—a claim that may not even be true, given the power of time to distort fact. Then, on the day of her confrontation at the docks, she goes temporarily insane and kills or tries to kill a number of people. These are certainly vile crimes, but they do not paint a picture of someone dedicated to evil. They paint a picture of aggrieved enough to lash out with defensive cruelty. I'd say Mierin had every reason to be aggrieved, even if there is no excuse for what she did.

 

Furthermore, Lews Therin himself was not exactly the paragon of virtue we often attribute him to be. I think we, as readers, have interpreted his role as Dragon—both the nature of being the Dragon and Lews Therin's specific actions as Dragon—to mean that his character integrity is superior to that of everybody else's. After all, he held the Light together in its darkest hour, and saved the world on the eve of the Shadow's triumph. But what we know of the real Lews Therin, the man behind the hero, is not so flattering. He couldn't handle people. He lost some of his closest friends and colleagues to the Shadow, including Mierin, through his direct failure in sustaining those relationships. He failed to persuade Latra Posae to support his plan, although his failure saved the world in this instance.

 

Then, after the sealing of the Bore, after Ishamael healed him, Lews Therin expressed regret at his supposed hubris, at trying to meddle: “Because in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In his pride he had believed.” These words he spoke after learning that he had murdered his family, and they reveal something about his prior disposition which is very much reminiscent of Mierin. Perhaps, regardless of how he remembers it, Lews Therin spurned Mierin because she was too much like himself.

 

As a presence in Rand's head, beginning with that scene in TFoH, Lews Therin is paranoid, psychotic, irrational, schizophrenic, and downright malevolent at times. Since Rand is indeed the Dragon Reborn, we have to wonder about Rand's own judgment when he, too, spurned Mierin. His choice seemed quite reasonable at first, just as we were also led to believe that Lews Therin's reasoning was reasonable too, but as time went on and Lanfear's insincerity in her service to the Shadow became more apparent, Rand should have revisited the issue.

 

Mierin wanted power. She was very ambitious. And, being so well-endowed in intelligence and channeling power, she was well-positioned to pursue her ambitions. This is all true. And there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Power to do what...that's the question, and it's a question we do not yet have an answer for. Maybe Mierin told Lews, but RJ has not told us. There is room to speculate that Mierin's motives may have been misguided, but not evil...or naïve, but not evil...or completely well-informed and virtuous, and certainly not evil. We know she lived in a time where human achievement had reached so far that people who sought any achievement at all were forced to incredible heights. If that untapped, sex-neutral power source had not been the Dark One, Mierin would have become known for ushering in an Age of Legends in the Age of Legends. There is no doubt that, having already possessed the power to destroy the Pattern, and to influence its direction, humanity would have soon achieved the power to alter the Pattern willfully without injuring it. The Creator and Dark One would not have been destroyed as a result of this, but they would, as Mierin had desired, have been supplanted. Her dream was not a delusional one. It was simply very, very grandiose.

 

Who is to fault her for it? Who is to blame the greatest people in a great era for desiring that which, to the wretches of the dark ages, may well seem to be outright insane? In the real world, in this era, we can fly above the clouds, unleash the power of the atom, hear symphonies without a single musician present, reverse disease, and communicate across the globe in the blink of an eye. Are we insane for wanting to achieve even more? No. We're no more insane than that first creative, ambitious person who desired to grow more food by building the plow. It's in our nature to want to become better than we are.

 

Perhaps, with the wisdom of the Age of Legends to guide his thoughts, Lews Therin was able to draw some conclusions about Mierin that we cannot. Perhaps Mierin's motives were pure but her character was faulty. Perhaps her motives were not pure, even if her goals were noble. But it's just as possible that she was simply restless...a creator in an era with little left to create.

 

The Wheel of Time universe is a tough place to eke out a satisfying philosophical existence. The presence of real deities, and the strength of their grip over the world, combined with the cyclical nature of the world, can inspire feelings of futility, despair, nihilism, cynicism. It claimed Elan Morin, even before the Bore was drilled. Mierin chafed against it too, not by giving up but by defying the fatalism that seemed to govern life. We ask...power to do what? But maybe Mierin never even got that far. Maybe by presuming to “challenge the Creator” she simply wanted to make her own choices, rather than having the Wheel weave as the Wheel wills. If that's what her goal was, then I wouldn't think less of her for it. I would sympathize with her...and pity her for being born into a Robert Jordan novel.

 

But maybe RJ considered all this himself, and came up with a fitting resolution for her. At any rate, all of this speculation is intended as an exercise to demonstrate that Mierin / Lanfear / Cyndane is not necessarily evil, and perhaps was never evil at all so much as supremely unlucky and “only human” in reacting to her setbacks.

 

Emu's Note: At this point, the notes start to get spare. I've truncated them to something readable, but don't expect too much analysis from here on out.

 

 

What Is Mierin Doing at the End of ToM?

 

Fast forward now to the epilogue of ToM. How can we reconcile this with her past behavior? There are a lot of new theories emerging, as well as twists on some old ones. I'll consider some of them in the context of my sympathetic view of the character. First, though, we have to speculate about what happened to her after falling through the gateway and being held by the Finns.

 

 

Finnland

 

Mierin seems likely to have gotten her three wishes from the Finns. It's also not out of the question that she got to ask her three questions. So far, despite having had many years to speculate, there really hasn't been all that much theorization about what Mierin might have wished for, or asked. Among what speculation there is, a lot of it focused on the now-discredited notions that her wishes were wishes of vanity, to increase her beauty, or her strength in the One Power, or to kill Asmodean. Not many people have given Mierin enough credit to have made wishes with a clearer head.

 

We do know that Mierin wanted more power. We also know she wanted Rand. She may well have wished for these, or asked how to get them.

 

We also know that Mierin wished herself dead in the ToM epilogue. Assuming she was being sincere, then this has to be a recent development, or else she would have wished it when she had actual wishes available to her.

 

We know that her new name, Cyndane, means “Last Chance,” but we don't know who gave her the name, or why, which raises the question of “Last chance for what?” To win over Rand? To rule the world? To serve the Dark One loyally and successfully? To be free of the Dark One entirely and atone for her wrongs? To seal the Bore? Something else?

 

Lastly, we know that somebody came to the Finns looking for someone who isn't Moiraine. That someone might have been Mierin, and it's open season as to who he himself might have been, although the early speculation is that it was Moridin. The scene in the epilogue opens the intriguing possibility that Moridin has some special interest in Mierin—interest which is possibly entering Rand as he and Moridin merge into a single entity.

 

 

Ishy Loves Lanfear?

 

This has led to a curious theory that Elan Morin / Ishamael / Moridin was in love with Mierin. This theory is significant because, if true, it could potentially challenge our entire view of Elan Morin's motives in turning to the Shadow. Did he turn to the Shadow in the first place not because of his philosophical views about the nature of existence, but because Mierin spurned him?

 

I find a hard time accepting that possibility. Given Elan Morin's central role in the evils of the Third Age, it makes Mierin indirectly responsible for pretty much all the evil in the world throughout the Third Age, in addition to her culpability for destroying the paradise of the Age of Legends. That pushes my suspension of disbelief.

 

 

Not The Real Lanfear?

 

I'm certain that this was the real Mierin, and not an illusion by Moridin or some other kind of entity. Rand looked into her eyes and knew who she was; he has Light-granted power now to see through many deceits and deceptions, which ToM made a point of emphasizing. Applying that information consistently, this was the real Mierin.

 

 

A Moridin / DO / SH Ploy?

 

I'm confident, although not certain, that Mierin’s behavior in the epilogue is not a ruse by Moridin. Cyndane in the past was banned by Moridin from going anywhere near Rand, lest she try to kill him. That he would completely reverse himself and use her as a bait for Rand in a trap that draws upon Mierin’s passions is extremely unlikely based on the information we have, and would suggest that Moridin has either taken leave of his senses, or has become complacent in the security of his cour'souvra.

 

That said, it's not impossible. Shadar Haran implies that Graendal's duties have been transferred, and there aren't many Forsaken left at this point.

 

 

A Lanfear Ploy?

 

I'm less confident, but still strongly suspect, that Mierin's behavior is also not a ruse of her own design. You might expect this, given that I view her favorably, but there are other reasons to draw this conclusion.

 

For one thing, why would RJ have held the great “Lanfear” in reserve for eight books just to have her take one last stab, in the climax of the whole series, at the strategy that has failed her so consistently? Unless RJ's intention was for her to succeed this time, it would be too much of an anticlimax. Is he the kind of author who would write Mierin as finally succeeding in her attempt to subvert Rand after so many failures? Rand? The Champion of the Light? Somehow I doubt it.

 

Secondly, what would it serve Mierin?

 

However, in this case there is evidence for both sides.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Wow, I like this thread!

 

Emu, a great post. You twist the facts a little to make them fit your theory better (e.g. I would say you're a little unfair to LTT - even Lanfear said he was "Arrogant as a mountain, but soft and open-hearted as a girl" (quote from memory). I think that every reader - including you - would not say that Mierin was similar to him in that regard.You also blame him for other Forsaken's decisions to join the Shadow, which is at least unfair and not really supported in the text.), but who doesn't?

 

I'm very curious about the Lanfear resolution in AMoL. I would hope for some redemption for her, but I think RJ did not contemplate creating "grey" and ambigous Forsaken - one of his goals in writing WOT was, as he said himself, creating a story about a fight between Good and Evil, with the clear divide and more absolutes than relativisms.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I think RJ did not contemplate creating "grey" and ambigous Forsaken - one of his goals in writing WOT was, as he said himself, creating a story about a fight between Good and Evil, with the clear divide and more absolutes than relativisms.

 

Aye, I expect you're right about RJ's intentions, at least by my understanding. He would probably be flattered that someone would put so much energy into seeing one of his villains in a positive light, and then he would probably roll his eyes and have some tea. =)

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think RJ did not contemplate creating "grey" and ambigous Forsaken - one of his goals in writing WOT was, as he said himself, creating a story about a fight between Good and Evil, with the clear divide and more absolutes than relativisms.

 

Aye, I expect you're right about RJ's intentions, at least by my understanding. He would probably be flattered that someone would put so much energy into seeing one of his villains in a positive light, and then he would probably roll his eyes and have some tea. =)

 

Or a glass of whisky

[SuperFade]

I always enjoy reading Emu's posts even when I don't agree with them. They're a refreshing change from the usual parroting of quotations and moving of goalposts that normally accompanies a discussion. It's nice to see some nonstandard interpretations of characters every once in a while.

[Suttree]

Maybe after AMoL if the character is still compelling I'll revisit the topic with full scholarly essay rigors--including footnotes, which should stir joy in the hearts of all those kindly folks who like to harass people who don't post bibliographies with their analysis.

 

Why dear Emu, you wrong me. All I have done is ask for some support to your theory. Meanwhile in separate posts you have flat out told people I said things I didn't, ascribed a false opinion on said character to my thinking, and ignored me after I answered your requests for specific proof that I would like to see. Harass? I have tried to work with you at every turn while you have been quite dishonest, casting my posts in a false light in attempting to discredit my opinion.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I've always liked that Lanfear was the most beautiful woman in the Age of Legends (or perhaps anywhere), and had the most ability in the One Power...but RJ wrote her as someone in whom those things did not achieve greatness. The third name was considered a mark of someone who had done extraordinary things for the betterment of society and people...and the most beautiful and powerful woman did not get a third name. I think that would be something that rubs on her conscience. In the Age of Legends, perhaps beauty and ability in the One Power really were just side bars and not as important as what one could bring to society through study and talent. But I sometimes wonder if Mierin would sit and think "I have all this beauty, all this Power...why can't I advance?!?!"

 

I think that in finding the Bore, Mierin was excited at the prospect of attaining a third name and when they discovered what the Bore was, she recognized an opportunity to attain power. It was said that she longed for/lusted after power above all things - suggesting that teaming up with LTT would give her power. When she realized Rand had the access keys she made a play for power as well. This seemed to be the flaw that the Dark One's influence magnified in Mierin Eronalle, creating her Lanfear.

 

For redemption, Lanfear would need not to have a broken spirit, but to realize that there needs to be a balance in one's quest for position and power - otherwise one becomes a tyrant or dictator, lording power over those beneath them instead of utilizing power for the benefit of those beneath them. I think that would be her redemption if RJ had intended her to be redeemed at all.

[True Source Creator]

If Lanfear does ever manage to hold a position of power (well, obviously she does since she's Chosen, but I'm talking about her own world here), I"m sure she'd be an awesome leader. Sarcasm, of course, but it would be interesting. Where would she go from there? If she gained power over the Dark One or the Creator, what would motivate her? That's her biggest character flaw, and I think it's well defined. She'd make a much better ruler than Semirhage at least.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Do you also see some similarities between Lanfear and Cersei? Especially considering their unconditional drive for power...

[Winespring Patron]

She's beautiful, bold, and doesn't take no for an answer!

 

She's possessive and has a "slight" problem with rejection!

 

You don't want to be her messenger relaying bad news, Oh No! Just ask Kadere! She not only kills the messenger; she skins, inflates, and levitates the former bearer of ill tidings!!!

 

I believe she's setting Rand up for her Ultimate Revenge in TOM, unless the Eelfinn granted her a wish for sanity or provided intensive psychotherapy while she was captive in Finnland???

[Justanotherfacet]

TO be honest, (to me) she's always been one of the most "real" characters of the series. In fact, besides Matt she seems more human than any other character in the series - There's a oddly genuine ring to her particular symphony.

 

We've all met a girl like her; that riveting mixture of startling beauty and genuine instability. Like a walking, talking timebomb =D

 

And if that's not enough I mean we've all heard the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and here we have a character willing to fuck with Satan himself just to be with the man she once loved. Not to mention the self destructive tendencies she showed in leashing Asmodean as Rand's Tutor.