Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Kahsm]

 

Splitting weaves does not mean skill, that has been stated a lot. Stronger channelers have an easier time splitting weaves. So you cannot say a stronger channeler is more skilled just on the basis of being able to split more.

 

It has been stated a lot, but it is wrong. Or at least, has not been proven right. We have no reason to believe that Rand got STRONGER with the merger with LTT, but he did greatly increase his ability to split flows.

 

At most, you can make an argument that strength AND skill are involved.

 

I don't doubt that the better you know the weave (skill), the easier it probably is to weave it as 'one-of-many' while splitting. If you have to concentrate on a weave to do it right, you probably won't be splitting much while doing it. So his skill gained from LTT does allow him to split those particular weaves as much as he did, but that's not WHY he can split weaves that many times. That is a matter of agility, not skill.

 

Basically, lack of skill can hinder splitting, but more skill isn't why you can split more. If Rand wanted to just wave a tonne of flows around randomly, he could do it because he's a very agile channeler. There's no skill involved in just randomly waving shit about. Therefore, agility = ability to split more relative to what you'd expect from pure strength.

 

Both Rand and Egwene have proven to be agile channelers relative to their strength. Nynaeve is particularly skilled given how quick she can learn. Alivia is strong, but we don't know if she can split as much as Egwene can, or can snap weaves together as quickly as Nynaeve likely can (I have no proof Nynaeve weaves faster too but I'd assume she probably does).

[sleepinghour]

We don't know how she compares to most of the female Chosen. In terms of strength amongst the female Chosen, the only sure placement we have is Lanfear at the top. We do not know how Egwene compares to Graendal, Moghedien (Moggy was equal with Nynaeve when Ny was probably not at her full strength, thus Nynaeve is probably stronger than Moggy, possibly by enough to put her on a par with Elayne and Egwene), Semirhage or Mesaana (unless there was something in ToM about their relative strengths I've overlooked - if so, please remind me).

Egwene is not as strong as Moghedien, this has been made clear both in the series and by RJ himself.

 

There was no point to delaying anyway; she [Moghedien] was stronger than any woman in the camp, but she did not intend to give a circle of thirteen a chance at her.

And what if [Moghedien] had still been here? [Egwene] wondered. With the necklace off, and maybe whoever freed her? Shivering, she withdrew slowly. Moghedien had good reason to dislike her, very personally, and the only sister who could match one of the Forsaken alone, when she could channel at all, was in Ebou Dar. Moghedien could have killed Egwene without anyone noticing; even had a sister felt her channel, there would be nothing remarkable in that. Worse, Moghedien might not have killed her. And no one would have known anything until they found the pair of them gone.

On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found.

[Mr Ares]

Given we still don't know where Moghedien stands in relation to any of the other female Chosen, that doesn't help us much. Besides, the Chsen are known to lie to themselves - including about their strength - and the Light often give the Chosen rather too much credit (as a result of hearing so many stories of them being all powerful and just a step below Shai'tan).

[XXX]

Mr Ares..do you now not even take the word of the author who wrote the series that Egwene is one step below the forsaken in strength?

 

Your using the forkroot incident shows pretty clearly that splitting of weaves is a skill not related to the amount of power one is channeling.

[Durinax]

Given we still don't know where Moghedien stands in relation to any of the other female Chosen, that doesn't help us much. Besides, the Chsen are known to lie to themselves - including about their strength - and the Light often give the Chosen rather too much credit (as a result of hearing so many stories of them being all powerful and just a step below Shai'tan).

the aCoS quote above your post is egwene's monologue that states she is weaker than mog

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares..do you now not even take the word of the author who wrote the series that Egwene is one step below the forsaken in strength?

She is one step below some of them. Given that Nynaeve was probably not at her full strength, then she is probably a level higher than Moghedien. But Egwene is on the level below Moghedien. So, RJ's quote surely indicates that Egwene is on the same level as Moggy. And we don'y know where Moggy ranks compared to most of the other Chosen.

 

Your using the forkroot incident shows pretty clearly that splitting of weaves is a skill not related to the amount of power one is channeling.

I didn't say it related to the amount one was channeling, I said it related to strength. Forkroot doesn't diminish ones maximum strength, simply the amount of ones strength available. I was explaining why the forkroot incident cannot be used as evidence against my point.

 

Durinax, strictly speaking she didn't mention strength.

[sleepinghour]

Given we still don't know where Moghedien stands in relation to any of the other female Chosen, that doesn't help us much. Besides, the Chsen are known to lie to themselves - including about their strength - and the Light often give the Chosen rather too much credit (as a result of hearing so many stories of them being all powerful and just a step below Shai'tan).

Yes, they frequently exaggerate their own strength...which is why I included the quotes from Egwene (who has spent enough time around Moghedien to know her exact strength, and knows her own strength as well since it's the same as Elayne's) and RJ. Surely three people saying Moghedien is stronger should be enough proof.

[sleepinghour]

She is one step below some of them. Given that Nynaeve was probably not at her full strength, then she is probably a level higher than Moghedien. But Egwene is on the level below Moghedien. So, RJ's quote surely indicates that Egwene is on the same level as Moggy. And we don'y know where Moggy ranks compared to most of the other Chosen.

Brandon said Nynaeve is as strong as Semirhage, and Moghedien's one of the weaker Forsaken. Egwene, by her own admission, is not as strong as Moghedien.

 

I don't think RJ wasn't talking about exact points on the OP scale. The report also says "Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found" and we know that Cadsuane's somewhere between Egwene and Moiraine. He probably meant that Nynaeve's Forsaken class (which includes all levels between Moghedien and Lanfear), and Egwene/Elayne are below that group.

[XXX]

Mr Ares..do you now not even take the word of the author who wrote the series that Egwene is one step below the forsaken in strength?

She is one step below some of them. Given that Nynaeve was probably not at her full strength, then she is probably a level higher than Moghedien. But Egwene is on the level below Moghedien. So, RJ's quote surely indicates that Egwene is on the same level as Moggy. And we don'y know where Moggy ranks compared to most of the other Chosen.

 

Your using the forkroot incident shows pretty clearly that splitting of weaves is a skill not related to the amount of power one is channeling.

I didn't say it related to the amount one was channeling, I said it related to strength. Forkroot doesn't diminish ones maximum strength, simply the amount of ones strength available. I was explaining why the forkroot incident cannot be used as evidence against my point.

 

Durinax, strictly speaking she didn't mention strength.

 

 

Strength means the amount of OP one can channel...forkroot reduces strength so it is obvious splitting weaves have nothing to do with strength. We never read about Siuan not been able to weave correctly after her healing..it is only that the amount of OP she can draw is now reduced. She weaves as she always did with the same skill.

 

RJ does not say that Egwene is below some of the forsaken..he just said that she is one step below the forsaken class. Which means she is weaker than the weakest Forsaken.

[Mr Ares]

Given we still don't know where Moghedien stands in relation to any of the other female Chosen, that doesn't help us much. Besides, the Chsen are known to lie to themselves - including about their strength - and the Light often give the Chosen rather too much credit (as a result of hearing so many stories of them being all powerful and just a step below Shai'tan).

Yes, they frequently exaggerate their own strength...which is why I included the quotes from Egwene (who has spent enough time around Moghedien to know her exact strength, and knows her own strength as well since it's the same as Elayne's) and RJ. Surely three people saying Moghedien is stronger should be enough proof.

Egwene spending time around Moghedien alone isn't enough - Moggy's strength was hidden. So you need to demonstrate that Egwene really did know her strength.

 

 

She is one step below some of them. Given that Nynaeve was probably not at her full strength, then she is probably a level higher than Moghedien. But Egwene is on the level below Moghedien. So, RJ's quote surely indicates that Egwene is on the same level as Moggy. And we don'y know where Moggy ranks compared to most of the other Chosen.

Brandon said Nynaeve is as strong as Semirhage, and Moghedien's one of the weaker Forsaken. Egwene, by her own admission, is not as strong as Moghedien.

 

I don't think RJ wasn't talking about exact points on the OP scale. The report also says "Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found" and we know that Cadsuane's somewhere between Egwene and Moiraine. He probably meant that Nynaeve's Forsaken class (which includes all levels between Moghedien and Lanfear), and Egwene/Elayne are below that group.

So the RJ quote can be dismissed as unreliable. And where is Moghedien stated to be one of the weaker Chosen? It is a claim often made but that I have never seen supported.

 

 

Mr Ares..do you now not even take the word of the author who wrote the series that Egwene is one step below the forsaken in strength?

She is one step below some of them. Given that Nynaeve was probably not at her full strength, then she is probably a level higher than Moghedien. But Egwene is on the level below Moghedien. So, RJ's quote surely indicates that Egwene is on the same level as Moggy. And we don'y know where Moggy ranks compared to most of the other Chosen.

 

Your using the forkroot incident shows pretty clearly that splitting of weaves is a skill not related to the amount of power one is channeling.

I didn't say it related to the amount one was channeling, I said it related to strength. Forkroot doesn't diminish ones maximum strength, simply the amount of ones strength available. I was explaining why the forkroot incident cannot be used as evidence against my point.

 

Durinax, strictly speaking she didn't mention strength.

Strength means the amount of OP one can channel...

Female channelers can sense the strength of other female channelers. While a dose of forkroot or a shield would diminish the strength one has access to, another channeler would still detect their unmodified maximum strength. Also, if the other channeler was carrying an angreal, the boost in strength that would give wouldn't be detected unless the channeler was actually using the angreal. Given that I am contending unmodified strength is the important factor, your argument doesn't address my point.

We never read about Siuan not been able to weave correctly after her healing..it is only that the amount of OP she can draw is now reduced.

How many ways could she split her weaves before? How many now? If there isn't evidence to answer those questions conclusively, then that really isn't evidence.

She weaves as she always did with the same skill.

She lost strength, not skill. What's your point?

 

RJ does not say that Egwene is below some of the forsaken..he just said that she is one step below the forsaken class. Which means she is weaker than the weakest Forsaken.

Actually, he said "Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken." Egwene is one step below that. So one step below "most" female Chosen - nothing about males at all, and leaving the possibility for Egwene to be as strong or stronger than a female Chosen.

[XXX]

Really clutching at straws here...if Egwene was at forsaken strength then RJ would have said she is at Forsaken strength. It is pretty obvious to anyone reading his quote that Egwene is weaker than the forsaken.

 

And a complete weakling compared to the Dragon.

 

Egwene was using the adam with Moggy...she knew exactly how strong she was.

 

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

[sleepinghour]

Egwene spending time around Moghedien alone isn't enough - Moggy's strength was hidden. So you need to demonstrate that Egwene really did know her strength.

This is getting ridiculous. You are the one who needs to demonstrate that Egwene is as strong as Moghedien. A single quote supporting this claim. One. That's all I ask.

 

In ACoS, Egwene seemed convinced Moghedien would have been able to kill or abduct her; fighting her never even crossed her mind. Egwene also knew Nynaeve's strength in TSR, which was roughly equal to Moghedien's at the time. So not very difficult to reason out for anyone capable of putting two and two together.

 

So the RJ quote can be dismissed as unreliable.

Not unreliable at all--it fits perfectly well with what we know of everyone's strengths unless you take it to mean he was talking about exact points on the OP scale, which I don't believe he was. He was simply telling us X is weaker than Y. And it makes sense that he left out Cadsuane since the report was from right before ACoS came out.

 

And where is Moghedien stated to be one of the weaker Chosen? It is a claim often made but that I have never seen supported.

Brandon said that in response to my question on Twitter, so it's quite understandable that you wouldn't be aware of that quote. However, I think that was also fairly obvious from the BWB and various other comments made by and about the female Forsaken.

 

@BrandSanderson: @sleepinghour Mogy is among the weaker Forsaken, for certain. If you're looking at raw power.

On the subject of splitting weaves, Nynaeve split her weaves "a half-dozen" times during the Aes Sedai test in ToM. Which may or may not be her actual limit, just like fourteen might not be Egwene's limit. Nynaeve and Talaan also used six or seven during the lesson in Winter's Heart. So far, Egwene's the only non-Forsaken female channeler who's demonstrated she's capable of doing fourteen despite being far from the strongest.

[FortySix]

Egwene was chosen by a group of women. Rand was chosen by the creator to represent all of the light. There are hundreds of Amyrlins in a single age. There is only one Dragon.

[Kahsm]

RE: weave splitting. I brought this up in another thread but it seems relevant here.

 

We know for a fact weave split amount is not only based on strength. As pointed out, women know exactly how strong other women are, but they are still amazed by how much Egwene can split. If splits were a function of strength alone, she wouldn't even have to demonstrate, they'd have known all along.

 

Just like how being muscular helps someone be quick and balanced, you still need agility to pull off complicated acrobatics. Same for channeling. You can split more if you're strong, but agility will get you further.

 

Nynaeve is more the body-builder type. Egwene is like... uhh... a contemporary dancer (sytycd is on).

 

Rand is also extremely agile. So while he's as strong as a man can be, and with the quick channeling skill of LTT, plus some insane multi-channeling agility, you get epicness.

[Mr Ares]

Really clutching at straws here...if Egwene was at forsaken strength then RJ would have said she is at Forsaken strength.

Would he? Why?

Egwene was using the adam with Moggy...she knew exactly how strong she was.

Do you have a quote to confimr that she knew how strong she was, or is it an unsupported assumption? Can you sense full strength through an a'dam?

 

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

No, it doesn't.

 

 

Egwene spending time around Moghedien alone isn't enough - Moggy's strength was hidden. So you need to demonstrate that Egwene really did know her strength.

This is getting ridiculous. You are the one who needs to demonstrate that Egwene is as strong as Moghedien.

I don't have to provide quotes to support claims I'm not making.

 

In ACoS, Egwene seemed convinced Moghedien would have been able to kill or abduct her; fighting her never even crossed her mind.

There's more to fighting than strength, and I've already said that the Light tends to overestimate the capabilities of the Chosen.

 

And where is Moghedien stated to be one of the weaker Chosen? It is a claim often made but that I have never seen supported.

Brandon said that in response to my question on Twitter, so it's quite understandable that you wouldn't be aware of that quote. However, I think that was also fairly obvious from the BWB and various other comments made by and about the female Forsaken.

 

@BrandSanderson: @sleepinghour Mogy is among the weaker Forsaken, for certain. If you're looking at raw power.

Thank you.

[XXX]

Ny is aware of Moggy's strength through the adam when they are in TAR seeing Rand and Rahvin go at it in there...and Moggy tells her that it is not enough to compete with the men as both are much stronger.

[XXX]

RE: weave splitting. I brought this up in another thread but it seems relevant here.

 

We know for a fact weave split amount is not only based on strength. As pointed out, women know exactly how strong other women are, but they are still amazed by how much Egwene can split. If splits were a function of strength alone, she wouldn't even have to demonstrate, they'd have known all along.

 

Just like how being muscular helps someone be quick and balanced, you still need agility to pull off complicated acrobatics. Same for channeling. You can split more if you're strong, but agility will get you further.

 

Nynaeve is more the body-builder type. Egwene is like... uhh... a contemporary dancer (sytycd is on).

 

Rand is also extremely agile. So while he's as strong as a man can be, and with the quick channeling skill of LTT, plus some insane multi-channeling agility, you get epicness.

 

 

I am sure Ares will not agree.

[sleepinghour]

Nynaeve is more the body-builder type. Egwene is like... uhh... a contemporary dancer (sytycd is on).

Nynaeve's a bit of an odd case. She can copy any weave after seeing it once and do complicated things like repeating Graendal's Compulsion weaves backwards. Unfortunately she tends to rely too much on strength and doesn't bother trying simpler methods. Like in the scene in TDR where the girls need to open a locked door; Nynaeve creates a large prybar to use on the door while Egwene solves the problem by using her affinity for Earth to weaken the chain. I think that scene is a good example of the difference between the two. Both methods would have worked, but Egwene's required much less effort.

 

IMO Nynaeve's problem is that her personality affects her way of channeling too much rather than any lack of skill/dexterity. Egwene is better at thinking outside the box.

[Entreri]

You guys are arguing if Egwene=Moghdien in strength? Should be self evident that Moghdiein >> Egwene.

 

 

Getting back to the topic at hand: DR >>>>>>>>>>>>> Egwene

[Entreri]

Ares:

 

"No, it wouldn't. LTT made no appearances in Rand's head for three books, then only sporadic ones for a while with Rand clearly able to discern which memories were his and which not. It's usually not hard to see where one ends and the other begins. Further, while Randmight have LTT's knowledge, that doesn't mean he has his skill - the skill would lie in the application of that knowledge. And it is Rand applying LTT's knowledge. Thus the skill of the twenty year old boy and the nineteen year old girl can be compared. Rand doesn't have a 400 year old man weaving for him."

 

Certainly, I suggest you read the re-read books 1-3.

 

Knowledge of new weave means that Rand will use the same exact technique LTT used...in the end having all his memories = Rand becomes as skilled as LTT in the use of those weaves.

 

Thus you have a child vs. LTT. Get real. Next you are going to tell us that Egwene will beat Rand in a face-to-face confrontation. Just for laughs, why don't you. :)

 

 

Ares:

"We don't know how she compares to most of the female Chosen. In terms of strength amongst the female Chosen, the only sure placement we have is Lanfear at the top. We do not know how Egwene compares to Graendal, Moghedien (Moggy was equal with Nynaeve when Ny was probably not at her full strength, thus Nynaeve is probably stronger than Moggy, possibly by enough to put her on a par with Elayne and Egwene), Semirhage or Mesaana (unless there was something in ToM about their relative strengths I've overlooked - if so, please remind me)."

 

 

lol. I see that you have an unfounded love affair with Egwene, let's leave it at that.

[Mr Ares]

Ny is aware of Moggy's strength through the adam when they are in TAR seeing Rand and Rahvin go at it in there...and Moggy tells her that it is not enough to compete with the men as both are much stronger.

Firstly, Moghedien wasn't hiding her strength then. Secondly, Nynaeve could tell when she was drawing close to Moggy's limit, but unless you know Egwene drew to Moghedien's limit, then you haven't confirmed anything.

 

 

You guys are arguing if Egwene=Moghdien in strength? Should be self evident that Moghdiein >> Egwene.

If it's so self-evident, you shouldn't struggle to provide actual evidence. Given that you have struggled for many pages now to justify your absurd claims, I fail to see why this should be any different. The only evidence put forward thus far as to relative strengths is ambiguous.

 

 

Ares:

 

"No, it wouldn't. LTT made no appearances in Rand's head for three books, then only sporadic ones for a while with Rand clearly able to discern which memories were his and which not. It's usually not hard to see where one ends and the other begins. Further, while Rand might have LTT's knowledge, that doesn't mean he has his skill - the skill would lie in the application of that knowledge. And it is Rand applying LTT's knowledge. Thus the skill of the twenty year old boy and the nineteen year old girl can be compared. Rand doesn't have a 400 year old man weaving for him."

 

Certainly, I suggest you read the re-read books 1-3.

 

Knowledge of new weave means that Rand will use the same exact technique LTT used...in the end having all his memories = Rand becomes as skilled as LTT in the use of those weaves.

Actually, Rand learning new weaves means that he knows new weaves. It says nothing about LTT's skill levels and whether or not Rand shares them. Rand is entirely capable of using a different technique to LTT to do something. And again, memory and skill are not the same thing. If you have evidence form the first three books... But you don't. I've challenged you repeatedly over most of the length of this thread over numerous claims you've made and you've failed to back them up, and shifted the goalposts. I fail to see why this would be different. In all, you have said nothing which refutes my point.

 

I see that you have an unfounded love affair with Egwene, let's leave it at that.

Actually, I don't like Egwene all that much. But time and again you make absurd claims about her, and I challenge, and you cannot back up your points.

[XXX]

Ny is aware of Moggy's strength through the adam when they are in TAR seeing Rand and Rahvin go at it in there...and Moggy tells her that it is not enough to compete with the men as both are much stronger.

Firstly, Moghedien wasn't hiding her strength then. Secondly, Nynaeve could tell when she was drawing close to Moggy's limit, but unless you know Egwene drew to Moghedien's limit, then you haven't confirmed anything.

 

It really does not matter if Egwene drew to Moggy's limit or not...Ny when she was drawing Moggy's max strength through the adam knew that her strength and Moggy's strength were kind of equal then. At this moment Ny is stronger than Egwene so Moggy is also stronger than Egwene. Ny is now stronger but Egwene is not getting stronger as her strength is at the max after being forced during her time as Damane a long time ago.

 

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing..Egwene is no where close to Moggy's strength and even she acknowledges that.

[Entreri]

Ny is aware of Moggy's strength through the adam when they are in TAR seeing Rand and Rahvin go at it in there...and Moggy tells her that it is not enough to compete with the men as both are much stronger.

Firstly, Moghedien wasn't hiding her strength then. Secondly, Nynaeve could tell when she was drawing close to Moggy's limit, but unless you know Egwene drew to Moghedien's limit, then you haven't confirmed anything.

 

 

You guys are arguing if Egwene=Moghdien in strength? Should be self evident that Moghdiein >> Egwene.

If it's so self-evident, you shouldn't struggle to provide actual evidence. Given that you have struggled for many pages now to justify your absurd claims, I fail to see why this should be any different. The only evidence put forward thus far as to relative strengths is ambiguous.

 

 

Ares:

 

"No, it wouldn't. LTT made no appearances in Rand's head for three books, then only sporadic ones for a while with Rand clearly able to discern which memories were his and which not. It's usually not hard to see where one ends and the other begins. Further, while Rand might have LTT's knowledge, that doesn't mean he has his skill - the skill would lie in the application of that knowledge. And it is Rand applying LTT's knowledge. Thus the skill of the twenty year old boy and the nineteen year old girl can be compared. Rand doesn't have a 400 year old man weaving for him."

 

Certainly, I suggest you read the re-read books 1-3.

 

Knowledge of new weave means that Rand will use the same exact technique LTT used...in the end having all his memories = Rand becomes as skilled as LTT in the use of those weaves.

Actually, Rand learning new weaves means that he knows new weaves. It says nothing about LTT's skill levels and whether or not Rand shares them. Rand is entirely capable of using a different technique to LTT to do something. And again, memory and skill are not the same thing. If you have evidence form the first three books... But you don't. I've challenged you repeatedly over most of the length of this thread over numerous claims you've made and you've failed to back them up, and shifted the goalposts. I fail to see why this would be different. In all, you have said nothing which refutes my point.

 

I see that you have an unfounded love affair with Egwene, let's leave it at that.

Actually, I don't like Egwene all that much. But time and again you make absurd claims about her, and I challenge, and you cannot back up your points.

 

I don't want to waste too much of my time looking for quotes is various books and you glossing over them have a pointless endless discussion. My last post on this.

 

"She [Elayne] had grown accustomed to knowing that Nynaeve and the Forsaken were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha’s, matched Egwene’s.

 

- The Path of Daggers, Unweaving"

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

 

 

Rand's memory, first three books. Even without him knowing, the memory of LTT is dredged up.

 

 

EotW. A sword of Light that Rand wields against Ishamael: "You cannot wield it so, not until I teach you!". This is from a boy who has yet to know how to wield saidin.

Destroying an army of Trollocs etc "From the clear sky came lightning..."

This is from a boy who has yet to know how to wield saidin and nobody has taught him.

 

 

etc, many more examples in the other two books especially #3.

 

 

Rand's memories: They are the same soul, we know that LTT was a blademaster, Rand is. Rand has the potential=LTT, now with his memories he has. You are also assuming that these are "new weaves" that Rand learns. How do you know that LTT has not known them, considering the fact that he has wielded the OP for 400+ years in AoL? Rand was bad at Healing, so is LTT etc.

 

 

I rest my case. Later Ares.

[Mr Ares]

Ny is aware of Moggy's strength through the adam when they are in TAR seeing Rand and Rahvin go at it in there...and Moggy tells her that it is not enough to compete with the men as both are much stronger.

Firstly, Moghedien wasn't hiding her strength then. Secondly, Nynaeve could tell when she was drawing close to Moggy's limit, but unless you know Egwene drew to Moghedien's limit, then you haven't confirmed anything.

 

 

You guys are arguing if Egwene=Moghdien in strength? Should be self evident that Moghdiein >> Egwene.

If it's so self-evident, you shouldn't struggle to provide actual evidence. Given that you have struggled for many pages now to justify your absurd claims, I fail to see why this should be any different. The only evidence put forward thus far as to relative strengths is ambiguous.

 

 

Ares:

 

"No, it wouldn't. LTT made no appearances in Rand's head for three books, then only sporadic ones for a while with Rand clearly able to discern which memories were his and which not. It's usually not hard to see where one ends and the other begins. Further, while Rand might have LTT's knowledge, that doesn't mean he has his skill - the skill would lie in the application of that knowledge. And it is Rand applying LTT's knowledge. Thus the skill of the twenty year old boy and the nineteen year old girl can be compared. Rand doesn't have a 400 year old man weaving for him."

 

Certainly, I suggest you read the re-read books 1-3.

 

Knowledge of new weave means that Rand will use the same exact technique LTT used...in the end having all his memories = Rand becomes as skilled as LTT in the use of those weaves.

Actually, Rand learning new weaves means that he knows new weaves. It says nothing about LTT's skill levels and whether or not Rand shares them. Rand is entirely capable of using a different technique to LTT to do something. And again, memory and skill are not the same thing. If you have evidence form the first three books... But you don't. I've challenged you repeatedly over most of the length of this thread over numerous claims you've made and you've failed to back them up, and shifted the goalposts. I fail to see why this would be different. In all, you have said nothing which refutes my point.

 

I see that you have an unfounded love affair with Egwene, let's leave it at that.

Actually, I don't like Egwene all that much. But time and again you make absurd claims about her, and I challenge, and you cannot back up your points.

 

I don't want to waste too much of my time looking for quotes is various books and you glossing over them have a pointless endless discussion. My last post on this.

 

"She [Elayne] had grown accustomed to knowing that Nynaeve and the Forsaken were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha’s, matched Egwene’s.

 

- The Path of Daggers, Unweaving"

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

 

 

Rand's memory, first three books. Even without him knowing, the memory of LTT is dredged up.

 

 

EotW. A sword of Light that Rand wields against Ishamael: "You cannot wield it so, not until I teach you!". This is from a boy who has yet to know how to wield saidin.

Destroying an army of Trollocs etc "From the clear sky came lightning..."

This is from a boy who has yet to know how to wield saidin and nobody has taught him.

 

 

etc, many more examples in the other two books especially #3.

 

 

Rand's memories: They are the same soul, we know that LTT was a blademaster, Rand is. Rand has the potential=LTT, now with his memories he has. You are also assuming that these are "new weaves" that Rand learns. How do you know that LTT has not known them, considering the fact that he has wielded the OP for 400+ years in AoL? Rand was bad at Healing, so is LTT etc.

 

 

I rest my case. Later Ares.

A better effort than XXX47, who still struggles to back up points with anything resembling evidence. However, it's difficult to see what your first point is? That Nynaeve has a higher potential than Egwene? I'm not disputing that. Of course, given the forcing mentioned in that quote, and that Nynaeve was not at her full strength of at least part of the series, there does therefore exist the possibility that Egwene was equal to or stronger than Nynaeve. True, Nynaeve might always have been ahead in terms of actual strength as well as potential, but your quote does not address that possibility, therefore it doesn't really help matters any. I consider the saidar strength ranking from 13 Depository to be unreliable, because there are some placements which are not backed up by evidence.

 

As for your point about Rand's memories, it is no such thing - it is simply evidence that Rand was able to weave stuff. Consider that we have seen others do the exact same thing - in TDR, I believe it was, Egwene discovers for herself how to tie off weaves. She did it as instinctively as Rand did any of his own channeling. Now, I know you don't wish to contend that Egwene has memories of her own, as that sort of destroys your point about LTT V 19 year old girl. So EotW (and similar examples in the next two books) is simply an example of Rand's use of the Power, not of LTT. Strictly speaking, LTT wasd not a blademaster in the sense the term is understood in the Third Age - he might have an equivalent level of skill, but he wouldn't be accepted as a Blademaster unless he either won the unanimous approval of five blademasters, or killed one in combat. Given that the institution of blademastery as in teh Third Age didn't exist back then, he couldn't do either. Rand's skill with a blade is just that - Rand's skill.

 

So, you rest your case, despite providing no evidence to support your point. Fair enough.

[Kahsm]

Even I don't think Egwene is or ever was anywhere near Rand for power or agility or skill. So yeah... Given what she did in a circle with one of the most powerful sa'angreal still in existence, it was still just fireballs and the usual stuff until she tired out. It was a sexy visual, and I think she'll cause a lot of Aes Sedai to reconsider their soft lives, but compared to Maradon -- it was nothing.

 

As for the skill vs memories thing. Any musician, or probably sports dude (I'm a musician so I can only guess on the sports angle), will tell you about muscle memory. Where you get to the point where you don't really think about what you're doing, it becomes instinctive. Well muscles don't have memories, so that stuff is still in the brain, and still memory, just stored in the quick-access portion.

 

Just like if I throw a ball at your face and you raise your arms to block it. If I say "Play G", you know where to go without thinking about it. Well those parts of LTT's memories would be transferred to Rand too. That, I propose, is exactly why Rand felt LTT was trying to "take over" when he was in battle. Because LTT was such a competent channeler, that channeling and fighting was like breathing to him. So when Rand got into combat, he had muscle memories that told him what to do, but he didn't yet have the contextual memories to tell him why he was doing it. Thus, he felt like he was being taken over.

 

Upon enlightenment, he got everything into order and in context, and that's when he realized LTT wasn't trying to take over, it was just him all along.

 

Given that, things like sword fighting and channeling would come much easier to him, because of the years of practice being uploaded to his brain. It's like he's in the Matrix and they uploaded sword forms. "I know Kung Fu"

 

However, that it doesn't mean he's physically capable of doing everything instantly when it comes to sword fighting. You may know what to do, you may even get the memory allowing you to do it flawlessly, but if you lack the physical capabilities to pull it off, you need to build that up. But that's relatively quite easy to, do and I believe that's exactly what happened at the start of tGH. From then on he just needed the skill from LTT and he could dance the blades with the best of them.

 

Assuming you accept that. Imagine Naeff, standing there watching a guy with 300ish years of channeling experience snapping together weaves that he doesn't recognize so fast he "cannot follow them all". Makes perfect sense.