Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Speculation: Most powerful Dreamer and 4 or 5 elements.

Not true. Amys has stated that Egwene is potentially far more powerful than any of the Wise One Dreamwalkers alive. Maybe she isn't the most powerful certainly, but given lack of evidence and also how rare Dreaming and Dreamwalking is, it is safe to assume that she is near the top.

 

Also, Egwene has stated that she barely needed to think to use Air and Water. Dreamers and Dreamwalkers who can channel have an affinity for Spirit, and Egwene herself is abnormally strong in Earth as mentioned in TGH (being able to detect ores in an unused quarry).

 

Avienhda is the first one to actually Travel...even though she forgot how she did it.

But Egwene was the first one to actually REDISCOVER it through conscious inference and deduction. Aviendha did it on the spur of the moment without really knowing what was going on.

 

Messana defeat was impressive. Rand has defeated 5 Forsaken (6 if you count Aginor), Moraine 2, Nyaneve 1, Elza 1, Green Man 1.

Let's see. The six you refer to are Aginor, Ishamael, Rahvin, Sammael, Aran'gar and Semirhage.

 

Aginor killed himself drawing too much of the power.

Rand defeated Ishamael.

Rahvin was owning Rand until Nynaeve showed up.

Sammael got blasted by Mashadar.

Rand didn't defeat Aran'gar. It hardly takes any effort to kill someone who got trussed and bound up for the offering. Rand wasn't even aiming for her, but Graendal. Aran'gar was collateral damage and Graendal got away.

Semirhage owned Rand until the Dark One intervened. I'd say that the Dark One used Rand to defeat her.

 

Rand defeated only 1 or 2 of the Forsaken knowingly and consciously, unless you were refering to others?

 

Do you happen to remember where Amys said that? I quickly scanned books (4,5,6, Kindle) could not find it. Egwene was certainly surprised by the capabilities of the Aiel Wise Ones, and amazed that Perrin blocked balefire with his hands. I would say that Egwene is certainly close to the top, given the defeat of Messana, but not #1.

 

The Wise One's have been in TAR for 1000's of years (most experienced probably have 200+ years in TAR), and they contest the Chosen's mantra that are the rulers of TAR.

 

Somewhere during their first few meetings. Egwene isn't number 1 yet. She could possibly be though. Even Moghedien admits that she is strong, and Moghedien is a master of Tel'aran'rhoid.

 

Ishamael, Rahvin (he did kill him, regardless of the help), Aran'gar of course, Semirhage and Asmodean, even Aginor (without Rand, Aginor would be alive...in the real world, think of a bank robbery and bystander dying during the robbery/heart attack).

Aginor just burnt himself out and killed himself out of panic when Rand started to draw on the Eye. And Rand did NOT defeat Aran'gar. Killed, sure. But in no way he defeated Aran'gar. There's a difference between defeating someone and killing someone.

 

The only reason Egwene managed to defeat Messana was because she was in TAR

So? Your point being?

 

Keep in mind that Rand would have killed Grandael and Aran'gar both, Grandael was fortunate that the TP saved her.

Graendal was fortunate, yes, but Aran'gar would have escaped too had Graendal not trussed and bound her up for sacrificed.

[sleepinghour]

There is one objective criterium of character importance to the story , it's the total number of his/her PoVs in the whole series . I don't remember exact ones ( Theoryland would help ) , but the list is Rand > Egwene > Perrin > Mat > Nynaeve > Elayne > any other character and Rand , Egwene and Perrin are very close .

 

So , my opinion is that RJ intented all main characters being critical for the story focus , but , of cause , their particular roles are and will be different .

According to this list, it's Rand (200) > Perrin (134) > Egwene (110) > Mat (90) > Elayne (66) > Nynaeve (57) as of ToM. I see POVs as more of an indicator of whose storylines progressed more slowly (usually ones dealing with politics, like Egwene working to reunite the Tower and Elayne's succession storyline...and oh yes, Faile's rescue ). Still, it's a bit depressing to see Gawyn's gotten far more POVs than Nynaeve in the last two books. Haven't we suffered enough?

[Mr Ares]

You keep going on and on about Ewgene's amazing skills in the One Power.

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

 

"How well did LTT do at the hundred weaves?.

 

He is the only male Aes Sedai still living that was properly raised, as he told Cadsuane.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

"One can kill thousands of Trollocs through strength, it's not a given it's a show of skill. He's defeated Chosen via strength and outside interference, but I can't recall any instance of a win via him being the more skilled channeler."

 

Because your bias is clouding your judgement. Does anybody really think that a 19 year old girl is more skilled than LTT?

Again, LTT has nothing to do with this - it's about Rand and Egwene. And why should I accept that a 19 year old girl is significantly less skilled than a 20 year old boy? And once again, you dodge the point - when has Rand achieved victory over another Chosen via skill, rather than having help or being stronger? Balthamel wasn't killed by Rand, nor was Aginor, nor Be'lal. Ishamael was killed by Rand when he was using callandor - one of the strongest sa'angreal ever made. When he and Asmo were equally matched in strength, his victory came via an angreal giving him a (relatively) tiny edge in terms of strength. Lanfear was killed by Moiraine, Rand was losing to Rahvin until Nynave interfered and gave him a chance to unleash masses of balefire, Graendal killed Asmo, Mashadar killed Sammael, Elza killed Osan'gar, masses of balefire and an assist from Graendal killed Aran'gar, TP and balefire was what did for Semi. Where is Rand's greater skill against the Chosen? How about you show me some evidence that my bias is clouding my judgement?

 

You don't find defeating Forsaken to be impressive?

I do, but "who is the most impressive was not at issue". What we were talking about was who had the most skill. If you challenged me to a contest to see who was the better fencer, the artillery barrage I use to flatten your house and kill you might be impressive, but it wouldn't make me a better swordsman. Rand has some impressive achievements, no doubt about it, but if you are so insistent that Rand is a more skilled channeler, show me the evidence.

 

Egwene herself was amazed at how many ways Rand split his Weaves (book 4).

Splitting weaves is a matter of strength - stronger channelers can split their weaves more ways than weaker ones. Therefore Rand, being stronger than Egwene, should be able to split his weaves more ways.

 

You may well be the only person that believe that Egwene is more skiled than LTT.

It may be that not even I believe it. But I am asking you for evidence that Rand is more skilled. Provide some, or stop trolling.

"That doesn't answer my question." The Chosen think of these new generation AS has half-trained children, which indicates that AS testing in AoL is MUCH MUCH tougher than currently. This indicates the skill level of AoL channelers in general.

No, it indicates that the AoL had a much greater knowledge of weaves and that the Chosen are very arrogant. Nothing about how difficult training was. Nor anything about relative skill levels.

 

A dead tired Rand, stood toe-to-toe with Asmodean. OP battle.

Yes, indeed. But he didn't win through greater skill or knowledge of the Power. He won by using another angreal. Thus, strength. Some smarts. Not skill with the OP. So I fail to see how this supports your point.

 

I have given several examples of Rand's amazing skills, you just conveniently ignore them. More like you are trolling me.

No, more like you ignoring whenever I point out most of your examples say nothing at all about skill.

 

Skill = Able to handle many many weaves at once,

No. Being able to handle more weaves seems ot be a function of strength, as it is consistently shown that stronger channelers can handle more weaves.

able to create complex weavings

Yes, but have you shown Rand can create more complex weaves than Egwene. Remember, I said Rand and Egwene. Not Nynaeve.

able to combine weaves like never done previously,

Dubious. I'd say that's imagination and creativity more than skill.

creating new weavs and so forth.

Same here.

 

Now go back to thinking that a 19 year old girl is more skillfull than the greatest channeler ever, LTT.

Again, not talking about LTT. Talking about a 20 year old boy.

 

Egwene herself was amazed at how many ways Rand split his Weaves (book 4).

Splitting weaves is a matter of strength - stronger channelers can split their weaves more ways than weaker ones. Therefore Rand, being stronger than Egwene, should be able to split his weaves more ways.

I do not think it is a matter of strength as I doubt Ny can split her weaves as many times as Egwene and she is many times stronger than Egwene.

Compelling, but as I said it is consistently shown that stronger channelers can split their flows more ways than weaker ones. We have not seen Nynaeve tested to her limit on this point, so it cannot really be said she is counter evidence.

 

 

Egwene is not Rand's equal in the power, she is not remotely close, and there is nothing in the book to suggest that she is.

And no-one is saying that she is. Stop trolling and read, as that's been said many times. That Rand is stronger is very much agreed upon by eveeryone, no debate. I don't recall seeing anyone put forward the notion that Egwene was more skilled. What has been argued is that much of the evidence put forward supporting Rand's greater skill is lacking - that's not saying Egwene is equal to or better than Rand, it's saying that some people are going to rather silly lengths with their Egwene hate, when they could make a far more persuasive case if they stuck to more reasonable ground.

Whether that is a function of skill or of raw power hardly matters.

It does if it is being put forward as evidence of greater skill.

 

As for the truly stupid notion that knowing how to do something doesn't equal the ability to do it:

It also wasn't the notion put forward. Again, reading helps. What was put forward is the notion that memory and skill are not the same thing. Just because you remember how adding numbers together works, doesn't mean you could look at a string of numbers (like 223+978+4,271+192+976+465+766) and instantly come up with the answer. It will take more time for some to work out, less so for others.

Also remember, lest anyone be tempted by the "skills atrophy" nonsense, that LTT's skills have had no chance to atrophy.

Indeed not. They died with him. It is Rand's skills at issue, and he only has the memory of LTT's skill.

[XXX]

Rand's skill with the OP before and after VoG is different...the scene at Marodon shows that there has been a quantum leap in his abilities.

So to argue that his skill level is that of a 20 year old boy is ridiculous.

[randsc]

That's exactly right. But don't expect Mister Ares to acknowledge any incovenient facts.

 

Instead, expect him to dishonestly move the goalposts. For example, in a thread about whether two characters are equally powerful, he will try to define power as meaning only skill, and not innate strength, and claim that the entire discussion has been about that one narrow facet. When confronted with evidence that refutes his points, he will become abusive. This is a consistent pattern of behavior.

[Suttree]

LTT's memories leaked across, even in the early books, several examples of this. All the Forsaken were fearful that Shai'tan would make LTT/Rand the Nae'blis...Shai'tan's Chosen are "always the strongest", Nae'blis=strongest=LTT.

 

What...that doesn't in any way show evidence of LTT's memories leaking across in the early books.

 

In addition could you clarify what you are saying about Nae'blis? Are you trying to insinuate that the title is just given to the one strongest in the OP?

[Entreri]

LTT's memories leaked across, even in the early books, several examples of this. All the Forsaken were fearful that Shai'tan would make LTT/Rand the Nae'blis...Shai'tan's Chosen are "always the strongest", Nae'blis=strongest=LTT.

 

What...that doesn't in any way show evidence of LTT's memories leaking across in the early books.

 

In addition could you clarify what you are saying about Nae'blis? Are you trying to insinuate that the title is just given to the one strongest in the OP?

 

I suggest you go read the earlier books.

 

LTT is the strongest OP wielder along with Ishamael. However, that title has other factors involved.

[Entreri]

"Again, not talking about LTT. Talking about a 20 year old boy."

 

Let me try again: You cannot separate the boy/Rand from the man/LTT. The memory leaks happen throughout the series.

 

Given this, certainly Rand is not only soooooooo much stronger than Egwene, but soooooooo much more skilled.

[Suttree]

LTT's memories leaked across, even in the early books, several examples of this. All the Forsaken were fearful that Shai'tan would make LTT/Rand the Nae'blis...Shai'tan's Chosen are "always the strongest", Nae'blis=strongest=LTT.

 

What...that doesn't in any way show evidence of LTT's memories leaking across in the early books.

 

In addition could you clarify what you are saying about Nae'blis? Are you trying to insinuate that the title is just given to the one strongest in the OP?

 

I suggest you go read the earlier books.

 

LTT is the strongest OP wielder along with Ishamael. However, that title has other factors involved.

 

So then Nae'bliss≠strongest≠LTT

[Entreri]

LTT's memories leaked across, even in the early books, several examples of this. All the Forsaken were fearful that Shai'tan would make LTT/Rand the Nae'blis...Shai'tan's Chosen are "always the strongest", Nae'blis=strongest=LTT.

 

What...that doesn't in any way show evidence of LTT's memories leaking across in the early books.

 

In addition could you clarify what you are saying about Nae'blis? Are you trying to insinuate that the title is just given to the one strongest in the OP?

 

I suggest you go read the earlier books.

 

LTT is the strongest OP wielder along with Ishamael. However, that title has other factors involved.

 

So then Nae'bliss≠strongest≠LTT

 

 

 

Strongest (OP strength, OP skill, abilities) = LTT, then Ishamael.

 

Strongest = Nae'blis = LTT, this is what all the Chosen know and fear, that LTT or Rand would be raised above them...Lanfear hinted at this many times, and other Chosen feared it.

[XXX]

I do, but "who is the most impressive was not at issue". What we were talking about was who had the most skill. If you challenged me to a contest to see who was the better fencer, the artillery barrage I use to flatten your house and kill you might be impressive, but it wouldn't make me a better swordsman. Rand has some impressive achievements, no doubt about it, but if you are so insistent that Rand is a more skilled channeler, show me the evidence.

 

 

Can Egwene do what Rand did at Maradon?

 

Does Egwene have any knowledge of the AoL weaves..does she know fire blossoms,death gates, that red things Rand blasts through his hands, the shield he makes which blocks everything except balefire etc etc.

 

Either Rand past VoG has access to certain powers above and beyond the OP(what some people argue) or the fact is he is now incredibly powerful because he has LTT level's of skill and knowledge. Take your pick..either way Egwene is far far behind.

[Mr Ares]

Rand's skill with the OP before and after VoG is different...the scene at Marodon shows that there has been a quantum leap in his abilities.

So to argue that his skill level is that of a 20 year old boy is ridiculous.

He is a twenty year boy nonetheless.

 

 

That's exactly right. But don't expect Mister Ares to acknowledge any incovenient facts.

 

Instead, expect him to dishonestly move the goalposts. For example, in a thread about whether two characters are equally powerful, he will try to define power as meaning only skill, and not innate strength, and claim that the entire discussion has been about that one narrow facet. When confronted with evidence that refutes his points, he will become abusive. This is a consistent pattern of behavior.

No, your persistent trolling and strawman arguments are pretty consistent across this thread, as are your fabrications. Would you care to provide evidence to support your claim of me being abusive? How about to support the things being said that were never said? This thread is about whether Rand and Egwene are equal, and covers many points. One claim put forward is about Rand's supposed greater skill. I have asked for that claim to be backed up. Instead we get any amount of rubbish put forward about how strong he is, how impressive his achievements, and so on, but none of them relevant to the point I am asking about. This is not me moving the goalposts - quite the reverse, in fact. XXX47 and Entreri are very much inclined to move the goalposts. I am not defining power as only skill - in fact, I'm not defining power at all. I am simply responding to a point made, and finding the people opposing me to be consistent in their refusal to engage with the point. The point they made in the first place. It is somewhat amusing, I'll grant you. I'm sure others might find some amusement as well in watching you wriggle and squirm. In fact, here's a quote from earlier in the thread: "(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL." That's from Entreri, and what began this little side show. As you can see, it very much says OP skill. Not strength, not power, not height, weight, shoe size, not anything like that, just OP skill. Now, if Entreri wants to talk about other things, he is welcome to. I'm not stopping him. But when certain points points are put forward, it is no use using unrelated material as evidence. "Rand has more OP skill because he has larger shoes." Is Rand stronger? Physically and in the Power, yes. Militarily as well - he can call on more armies than Egwene. More powerful? Well, politically, yes. Other definitions of power, perhaps, depending. He's taller, he probably weighs more, has more muscle mass. Probably larger shoes as well. But none of those points really matter when I am asking someone to defend a point about Rand's skill being much greater than Egwene's. I can find quotes to back up what I've said before in this thread. Can you do the same? Or would you care to concede the point?

 

"Again, not talking about LTT. Talking about a 20 year old boy."

 

Let me try again: You cannot separate the boy/Rand from the man/LTT.

Again, yes you can.

 

I do, but "who is the most impressive was not at issue". What we were talking about was who had the most skill. If you challenged me to a contest to see who was the better fencer, the artillery barrage I use to flatten your house and kill you might be impressive, but it wouldn't make me a better swordsman. Rand has some impressive achievements, no doubt about it, but if you are so insistent that Rand is a more skilled channeler, show me the evidence.

Can Egwene do what Rand did at Maradon?

Well, what Rand did at Maradon involved strength (where Egwene doesn't match Rand), knowledge of the OP (where Rand knows things Egwene doesn't), and a measure of skill. Given that, she would be unable to do it on the same scale, and would need to learn the weaves first, or puzzle them out for herself. Given that, currently she could not do it. If she knew the weaves, she might well be able to reproduce it on a smaller scale. So Maradon isn't really conclusive evidence of Rand being greater in skill.

 

Does Egwene have any knowledge of the AoL weaves..does she know fire blossoms,death gates, that red things Rand blasts through his hands, the shield he makes which blocks everything except balefire etc etc.

She has knowledge of some AoL weaves, although it's likely her knowledge has more holes than Rand. Third Agers know things that weren't known in the AoL, so she would have some knowledge Rand doesn't. But given we're talking about skill, not knowledge, I'd say it's beside the point. Rand's knowledge is not evidence of greater skill.

[XXX]

 

She has knowledge of some AoL weaves, although it's likely her knowledge has more holes than Rand. Third Agers know things that weren't known in the AoL, so she would have some knowledge Rand doesn't. But given we're talking about skill, not knowledge, I'd say it's beside the point. Rand's knowledge is not evidence of greater skill.

 

 

Like what knowledge does she have that Rand does not...I know of only 3 things 3 agers know which people in teh AoL did not know bonding(which Rand also knows), unravelling weaves(no AS accept Elayne knows it as it is a WO thing) and healing madness(Ny knows it)

 

 

So when you say she would have knowledge he does not have..care to point out one example?..as there are plenty of examples os things he knwos she does not even know exists.

 

 

BTW would Egwene survive in a fight with Rand alone with OP..simple question?

[Puny]

 

She has knowledge of some AoL weaves, although it's likely her knowledge has more holes than Rand. Third Agers know things that weren't known in the AoL, so she would have some knowledge Rand doesn't. But given we're talking about skill, not knowledge, I'd say it's beside the point. Rand's knowledge is not evidence of greater skill.

 

 

Like what knowledge does she have that Rand does not...I know of only 3 things 3 agers know which people in teh AoL did not know bonding(which Rand also knows), unravelling weaves(no AS accept Elayne knows it as it is a WO thing) and healing madness(Ny knows it)

 

 

So when you say she would have knowledge he does not have..care to point out one example?..as there are plenty of examples os things he knwos she does not even know exists.

 

 

BTW would Egwene survive in a fight with Rand alone with OP..simple question?

 

...I find this thread deraling abit. Maybe before you argue you should define the terms skill and knowledge? Just because one has skill does not equate knowledge. Maybe you should also define equal in what regard? Physical strength, dexterity in weaves, strength in channeling, mental strength, equal in knitting...you need to narrow down the options.

 

I would say they are not equal simply because Rand is chosen by the Pattern to fight the Dark One. The rest is irrelevant.

[XXX]

Splitting weaves logically means skill as a big deal is made about Egwene splitting her weaves(when she is no where close to the top strength among her fellow channelers)

 

Now Mr Ares even argues that Egwene the half trained As has more knowledge in certain areas than Rand?

 

Next will be that she may be as strong as him in the OP certain areas?

[UncleButcher1980]

Rand knows how to bond?

[XXX]

Rand knows how to bond?

 

The male version

[UncleButcher1980]

You mean what the Asha'man do? I didn't think he did.

[Entreri]

"Let me try again: You cannot separate the boy/Rand from the man/LTT.

Again, yes you can."

 

Certainly not, that would be impossible. LTT's memories filter through Rand without him knowing or acknowledging them, especially in the earlier books.

 

 

 

"He is a twenty year boy nonetheless."

 

Sure, but he has the knowledge of the greatest channeler in AoL. Rand points this out to Cadsuane.

 

Thus Rand's skill and abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egwene's, who is a mere 19 year without the knowledge of say Latra (AS opposed to LTT in AoL).

 

 

I am just spelling out the obvious here.

[Entreri]

"Be comforted-you face the Forsaken, but have one as ancient as they at your side".

 

Egwene is a child Amyrlin. I give her points for being strong (thanks to the Aiel) and of adequate strength (still much weaker than the weakest female Chosen), sufficient skill and being a great manipulator (the perfect AS) and incredible in TAR. Outside of TAR, she would be manhandle by any female Chosen, let alone a male.

[Kahsm]

Splitting weaves logically means skill as a big deal is made about Egwene splitting her weaves(when she is no where close to the top strength among her fellow channelers)

 

Now Mr Ares even argues that Egwene the half trained As has more knowledge in certain areas than Rand?

 

Next will be that she may be as strong as him in the OP certain areas?

 

Splitting weaves does not mean skill, that has been stated a lot. Stronger channelers have an easier time splitting weaves. So you cannot say a stronger channeler is more skilled just on the basis of being able to split more.

 

Also, just as channelers have widely varying strength in each element, it makes sense they also have widely varying abilities to split weaves. Egwene is noted as particularly good at splitting. Every Aes Sedai knows how strong she is and they were still surprised by her splitting. So obviously her 'agility', as I coin it, is better than average.

 

Rand is likely similar. So while he is as strong as a man can be, he also has higher than average agility as shown in TSR chap7. The strength and agility combined is what baffles Naeff.

 

In my opinion, none of this is skill. Skill is about actual weaving. Nynaeve is skilled, given her fast learning. Rand has been 'blessed' with knowledge someone else (LTT) spent the time learning. So while Rand is the most capable channeler at least on the light side, it might be unfair to compare him since he has 320 years of learning behind it. So lets just call him more "wise" in channeling ;)

[randsc]

 

Splitting weaves does not mean skill, that has been stated a lot. Stronger channelers have an easier time splitting weaves. So you cannot say a stronger channeler is more skilled just on the basis of being able to split more.

 

It has been stated a lot, but it is wrong. Or at least, has not been proven right. We have no reason to believe that Rand got STRONGER with the merger with LTT, but he did greatly increase his ability to split flows.

 

At most, you can make an argument that strength AND skill are involved.

 

 

 

Also, just as channelers have widely varying strength in each element, it makes sense they also have widely varying abilities to split weaves. Egwene is noted as particularly good at splitting. Every Aes Sedai knows how strong she is and they were still surprised by her splitting. So obviously her 'agility', as I coin it, is better than average.

 

Rand is likely similar. So while he is as strong as a man can be, he also has higher than average agility as shown in TSR chap7. The strength and agility combined is what baffles Naeff.

 

In my opinion, none of this is skill. Skill is about actual weaving. Nynaeve is skilled, given her fast learning. Rand has been 'blessed' with knowledge someone else (LTT) spent the time learning. So while Rand is the most capable channeler at least on the light side, it might be unfair to compare him since he has 320 years of learning behind it. So lets just call him more "wise" in channeling ;)

 

Now you're just engaged in a silly semantic game because you don't want to acknowlege a truth made clear in the text.

 

Let me help. First, the definition of the word "Skill":

 

skill1    /skɪl/ noun

1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.

2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.

3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

 

And next, the definition of "Wise":

 

 

wise   /waɪz/ adjective

1. having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right; possessing discernment, judgment, or discretion.

2. characterized by or showing such power; judicious or prudent: a wise decision.

3. possessed of or characterized by scholarly knowledge or learning; learned; erudite: wise in the law.

 

There is no way the "Wise" is even a defensible way of describing facility with the One Power, never mind being superior to the word "Skill."

 

You may think that Rand's skill (and yes, that's the word) is "unearned" so to speak. And of course, you're right, it is. In much the same way that Mat's skill as a general is unearned, and Egwene's (*gasp*) skill as a politician is unearned.

 

But skill is the word, and Rand, post-integration, displays more of it than Egwene.

[SharpDressedAsha'Man]

It has been stated a lot, but it is wrong. Or at least, has not been proven right. We have no reason to believe that Rand got STRONGER with the merger with LTT, but he did greatly increase his ability to split flows.

Given the fact that men gain strength in bursts rather than the women's gradual increases, getting a huge boost in power from VoG isn't unreasonable. He was using the Chodean Kal to the absolute limit, and since he started channelling he's used the forcing method to get stronger.

 

And when you remember that he needed Logain (who was, at the time, close to Rand's raw power) and a whole bunch of other channellers to accomplish a fraction of what he did at Maradon it's pretty silly to think that he didn't get any stronger.

 

 

 

I totally agree that the Dragon is far superior to Egwene; but as other people have pointed out, it isn't really a fair comparison.

Egwene is just a woman who was in the right places at the right times. the soul of the Dragon is so much more than that (both physically and metaphysically).

[Mr Ares]

She has knowledge of some AoL weaves, although it's likely her knowledge has more holes than Rand. Third Agers know things that weren't known in the AoL, so she would have some knowledge Rand doesn't. But given we're talking about skill, not knowledge, I'd say it's beside the point. Rand's knowledge is not evidence of greater skill.

Like what knowledge does she have that Rand does not...I know of only 3 things 3 agers know which people in teh AoL did not know bonding(which Rand also knows), unravelling weaves(no AS accept Elayne knows it as it is a WO thing) and healing madness(Ny knows it)

As far as I can remember, Rand has shown no knowledge of how to bond someone - he knows about bonding, but Alanna, Elayne, Aviendha and Min all bonded him, he didn't bond any of them. So I put forward the bond as knowledge Egwene has Rand doesn't. Of course, the text makes clear we don't know most of what the characters do about weaves - for example, we hear about Elayne and Nynaeve making many discoveries, but only actually see a few of them. We have seen Egwene making heartstone, but whether or not Rand knows the weave (or has any aptitude for making it) is unknown. Given how little we know about how much they know, it is hard to say to what extent their knowledge overlaps. But the bond is something I am fairly sure Rand doesn't know, given he has never used it nor been shown it as far as I can recall.

 

BTW would Egwene survive in a fight with Rand alone with OP..simple question?

Survive? Very probably. While Rand has gotten over the worst of his madness, I don't expect he will be willing to kill someone who is both female and a childhood friend unless really pushed to it, and he has the knowledge necessary to incapacitate her without killing her. Win a fight? Rather less likely - if nothing else, he has a significant strength advantage, and his knowledge is certainly not lacking. Of course, it is possible to win fights against those with more knowledge, skill and strength than you - it's just harder.

 

 

Splitting weaves logically means skill as a big deal is made about Egwene splitting her weaves(when she is no where close to the top strength among her fellow channelers)

Well, forkroot affected the amount of the Power she could use, but not her actual strength - much like a partial shield in that respect. Contrast with the actual loss of strength seen in Siuan, Leane and Cyndane.

 

Next will be that she may be as strong as him in the OP certain areas?

Mr Ares sees no reason to believe that.

 

 

"Let me try again: You cannot separate the boy/Rand from the man/LTT.

Again, yes you can."

 

Certainly not, that would be impossible.

No, it wouldn't. LTT made no appearances in Rand's head for three books, then only sporadic ones for a while with Rand clearly able to discern which memories were his and which not. It's usually not hard to see where one ends and the other begins. Further, while Randmight have LTT's knowledge, that doesn't mean he has his skill - the skill would lie in the application of that knowledge. And it is Rand applying LTT's knowledge. Thus the skill of the twenty year old boy and the nineteen year old girl can be compared. Rand doesn't have a 400 year old man weaving for him.

 

 

and of adequate strength (still much weaker than the weakest female Chosen),

We don't know how she compares to most of the female Chosen. In terms of strength amongst the female Chosen, the only sure placement we have is Lanfear at the top. We do not know how Egwene compares to Graendal, Moghedien (Moggy was equal with Nynaeve when Ny was probably not at her full strength, thus Nynaeve is probably stronger than Moggy, possibly by enough to put her on a par with Elayne and Egwene), Semirhage or Mesaana (unless there was something in ToM about their relative strengths I've overlooked - if so, please remind me).

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I kinda doubt that Egwene and Elayne are equal to Semi or Mesaana. Moggy maybe. Mesaana, not likely.