Aes Sedai guidance?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Nor do the AS..that makes Egwene idea about guiding the Dragon and opposing his idea about the seals make her look even more stupid.

 

No it makes her look smart (in many of the characters PoV) because the Dragon proposed the idea in the first place, and a lot of people would think that breaking the seals would be wrong. Of course, we know Rand is correct. But there's a reason that we are the readers and they the characters.

[Himiko]

It seems like a lot of people are mistaking the idea of whether Rand has ever had/ needed AS guidance with whether Egwene should be guiding him.

 

Personally, I think Egwene is arrogant, sexist and too quick to jump on the "White Tower and AS are just awesome!" train. I don't think she is in a good position to be guiding the Dragon Reborn, when she's still in the process of getting the tower back on its feet and ready for the Last Battle. Saying that, there's a good possibility she's under Forsaken Compulsion, she's facing a man who has not only got 400 years worth of memories, much more raw power than she has, is/ has been the ruler of many nations, but also grew up with her, and knows she's stubborn and prone to thinking men are woolheaded. Not to mention, he's ta'veren. If anyone's being guided/played/ tricked by anyone in that scenario, its Egwene by Rand, not the other way around, and given what I've just mentioned, that is unsurprising. However, Egwene is not the only AS in the books that has had experiences with Rand, indeed, up until Lord of Chaos, she's not even AS.

 

Moiraine takes the three ta'veren out of the Two Rivers when they are in danger. Mat admits that she DID help them, even though her help was not neccessarily welcomed at the time. She helped him fight Forsaken, taking out Lanfear and sacrificing her freedom to the Finns. Several AS, Nynaeve and Cadsuane especially, stay at Rand's side to try and help him become less hard, and stop him from causing more destruction than he must. Later, when he lists the people who have helped shape and teach him in this life, both Nynaeve and Elayne (both AS for several books by this time) are on that list.

 

Should the AS guide the DR in the way that Elaida seemed to think? By capturing him, or otherwise forcing him to submit to the authority of the Tower and do as they say in the Last Battle? No. I don't believe they should.

 

Should the AS use their knowledge and power to assist the Dragon Reborn in reaching TG, helping him discover how to seal the Dark One, and fighting in the Last Battle? Yes. Many AS have been doing, or trying to do, just that.

 

I think this is very much like the thread about of the usefulness of the WT as an organisation- at the time, it doesn't seem like an immensely helpful organisation, but it has produced individuals that it has enabled to do great things. Likewise, in this case, the organisation itself seems to be under the impression that guiding Rand involves being in control of him, telling him what to do. This doesn't mean that individuals within the organisation have not succeeded in helping Rand over the series, whether by helping him stay alive, helping him come to realise his role as the Dragon Reborn, or trying to help him learn to be less "Hard".

[XXX]

Nor do the AS..that makes Egwene idea about guiding the Dragon and opposing his idea about the seals make her look even more stupid.

 

No it makes her look smart (in many of the characters PoV) because the Dragon proposed the idea in the first place, and a lot of people would think that breaking the seals would be wrong. Of course, we know Rand is correct. But there's a reason that we are the readers and they the characters.

 

 

It does not make her smart..it just reinforces the fact the Egwene and the As know absolutely nothing compared to what the Dragon knows.

[Manscher]

*snip*

 

Thank you!

 

Moiraine herself admits in the end that controlling him does not work, but helping and supporting however does. She mentions this to Egwene but it seems like she's completely misunderstood or forgot it.

 

I think Min puts it rather perfectly in the end of TGS when Nynaeve and Cadsuane are angry at Tam.

 

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want." The room fell stil.

 

Rand haven't needed guidance or people to "control" him, but he's needed people who supported him and whom he could trust. Time and time again however people have tried to manipulate or leash him, which made him more and more paranoid.

[Kahsm]

*snip*

 

Thank you!

 

Moiraine herself admits in the end that controlling him does not work, but helping and supporting however does. She mentions this to Egwene but it seems like she's completely misunderstood or forgot it.

 

I think Min puts it rather perfectly in the end of TGS when Nynaeve and Cadsuane are angry at Tam.

 

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want." The room fell stil.

 

Rand haven't needed guidance or people to "control" him, but he's needed people who supported him and whom he could trust. Time and time again however people have tried to manipulate or leash him, which made him more and more paranoid.

 

*cough* Except in TEotW when he was basically praying to the creator to find Moir at Caemlyn to tell him what to do next.

[MasterAblar]

*snip*

 

Thank you!

 

Moiraine herself admits in the end that controlling him does not work, but helping and supporting however does. She mentions this to Egwene but it seems like she's completely misunderstood or forgot it.

 

I think Min puts it rather perfectly in the end of TGS when Nynaeve and Cadsuane are angry at Tam.

 

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want." The room fell stil.

 

Rand haven't needed guidance or people to "control" him, but he's needed people who supported him and whom he could trust. Time and time again however people have tried to manipulate or leash him, which made him more and more paranoid.

 

*cough* Except in TEotW when he was basically praying to the creator to find Moir at Caemlyn to tell him what to do next.

 

Last I checked Rand was just a farmboy then, not yet the DR. He only became that at the end of tGH.

[Manscher]

His decision to stay in Caemlyn for a while showed to be the right one, did it not? He met Loial, Elayne and Elaida during that time, all three have proven rather important to him in one way or another since then. Loial whom helped them figuring out about The Eye of the World, Elaida because she broke the tower so that Rand could increase his power in the world without the tower meddling and Elayne for obvious reasons.

 

There is also the difference between asking for help and being bullied into doing what he should do. Him deciding to wait for Moiraine to figure out what to do next was a matter of asking for help, the latter is when the Salidar Sisters talk about controlling him.

[Kahsm]

*snip*

 

Thank you!

 

Moiraine herself admits in the end that controlling him does not work, but helping and supporting however does. She mentions this to Egwene but it seems like she's completely misunderstood or forgot it.

 

I think Min puts it rather perfectly in the end of TGS when Nynaeve and Cadsuane are angry at Tam.

 

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want." The room fell stil.

 

Rand haven't needed guidance or people to "control" him, but he's needed people who supported him and whom he could trust. Time and time again however people have tried to manipulate or leash him, which made him more and more paranoid.

 

*cough* Except in TEotW when he was basically praying to the creator to find Moir at Caemlyn to tell him what to do next.

 

Last I checked Rand was just a farmboy then, not yet the DR. He only became that at the end of tGH.

 

Well first of all that is debatable, second, that was never stipulated in the previous quotes, and finally I'm not sure how it's even relevant. So Aes Sedai guided him until he didn't need it as much anymore and they only really spoke up when they wanted to offer a counter argument to him? Oh no! How terrible of them.

 

Nynaeve was the Aes Sedai that stopped Rand from destroying the borderland army. I suppose she's a useless meddling witch that Rand hates since apparently they're all useless fools. Which must be why he's guaranteed to bring her to the final show down.

 

P.S. I agree 100% with Himiko ftr.

[XXX]

Nynaeve did not stop him with force or try to..she told her opinion and Rand agreed. Her position is secondary to that of the Dragon as should be.

 

Aes Sedai are not EQUAL to the Dragon unlike what Egwene "have to come to submit to the tower" al'Vere believes.

[MasterAblar]

*snip*

 

Thank you!

 

Moiraine herself admits in the end that controlling him does not work, but helping and supporting however does. She mentions this to Egwene but it seems like she's completely misunderstood or forgot it.

 

I think Min puts it rather perfectly in the end of TGS when Nynaeve and Cadsuane are angry at Tam.

 

"This is what we all get," Min said, "for assuming we can make him do what we want." The room fell stil.

 

Rand haven't needed guidance or people to "control" him, but he's needed people who supported him and whom he could trust. Time and time again however people have tried to manipulate or leash him, which made him more and more paranoid.

 

*cough* Except in TEotW when he was basically praying to the creator to find Moir at Caemlyn to tell him what to do next.

 

Last I checked Rand was just a farmboy then, not yet the DR. He only became that at the end of tGH.

 

Well first of all that is debatable, second, that was never stipulated in the previous quotes, and finally I'm not sure how it's even relevant. So Aes Sedai guided him until he didn't need it as much anymore and they only really spoke up when they wanted to offer a counter argument to him? Oh no! How terrible of them.

 

Nynaeve was the Aes Sedai that stopped Rand from destroying the borderland army. I suppose she's a useless meddling witch that Rand hates since apparently they're all useless fools. Which must be why he's guaranteed to bring her to the final show down.

 

P.S. I agree 100% with Himiko ftr.

 

While you can argue that he already sas the DR then, he didn't know that. In fact no one except Moirain knew and even she wasn't sure. It's relevant because Rand has no reason to refuse Aes Sedai guiding when he is nothing more than a farmboy. He was essentially helpless. However once he took on the position of DR he could no longer afford to be guided and told what to do because his situation had changed, as had his relation to Aes Sedai. Now what he needs is their help, their advice. What he doesn't need is them to try and tell him exactly what to do, which was only acceptable when he was just a farmboy.

[solarz]

The Aes Sedai keeps talking about how they have to guide the Dragon..but they know absolutely nothing about what the Dragon is supposed to do other than some rudimentary knowledge of the "Karaethon Cycle"..Moraine did not know that Rand had to go the Aiel, she advised against coming out of the waste etc. They had no knowledge about the Forsaken nor did they know anything about how to teach Rand to use saiden.

 

Now Egwene the new Amyrlin has no idea what to do with the seals or how to approach the Last Battle but she still wants to "guide" the dragon.

Such epic uselessness and delusion cannot even be fathomed.

 

You're completely forgetting the fact that men who channel are doomed to go mad. For 3000 years, men who could channel were the exclusive purview of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower think that they need the Dragon Reborn because of the prophecies, but they're also convinced that the DR would also be a raving mad lunatic, hence why the need to control him.

 

The White Tower, of course, never entertained the thought that the DR could still accomplish great things even while fighting the madness. In 3000 years, they've never really bothered to study the madness, instead just gentling every man they found who could channel.

 

Remember in the Eye of the World, people thought that the Dragon *was* the Dark One, or close enough to it. Men who could channel were the stuff of nightmares, and even the AS automatically dismissed such people as a danger that needed to be eradicated. It's very difficult to break a 3000-years-old mentality, even when it came to the Dragon Reborn.

 

Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad.

[anotherfingolfin]

You're completely forgetting the fact that men who channel are doomed to go mad. For 3000 years, men who could channel were the exclusive purview of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower think that they need the Dragon Reborn because of the prophecies, but they're also convinced that the DR would also be a raving mad lunatic, hence why the need to control him.

 

The White Tower, of course, never entertained the thought that the DR could still accomplish great things even while fighting the madness. In 3000 years, they've never really bothered to study the madness, instead just gentling every man they found who could channel.

 

Remember in the Eye of the World, people thought that the Dragon *was* the Dark One, or close enough to it. Men who could channel were the stuff of nightmares, and even the AS automatically dismissed such people as a danger that needed to be eradicated. It's very difficult to break a 3000-years-old mentality, even when it came to the Dragon Reborn.

 

Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad.

 

Exactly, everything you have said is on target. The point of argument is that whether Egwene at this point has reason or not to at least entertain the possibility that the world's would-be saviour is worthy of respect/credibility.

She assumes he is mad due to preconcieved notions. Apart from intel that he has a crazy temper, what else does she have to go on? Has he done anything outright outright crazy? Does he seem like a raving lunatic? Does Nyn, who has been close to him for a very long time, tell her that he is off his rocker? Do people she should trust not tell her that he's changed for the better? Does she not know that Saidin is cleansed, and shouldn't that count for something?

 

Is she supposed to be an important/respected leader and an intelligent opinion leader who is supposed to consider possibilities and overcome bias? Or is she she a foolish/naive farmgirl who is forgiven giving into prejudices and preconceptions without real evidence?

[XXX]

Egwene remains a country bumpkim..Rand obviously is not now that he has memories of LTT's aristocratic upbringing.

[Kahsm]

You're completely forgetting the fact that men who channel are doomed to go mad. For 3000 years, men who could channel were the exclusive purview of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower think that they need the Dragon Reborn because of the prophecies, but they're also convinced that the DR would also be a raving mad lunatic, hence why the need to control him.

 

The White Tower, of course, never entertained the thought that the DR could still accomplish great things even while fighting the madness. In 3000 years, they've never really bothered to study the madness, instead just gentling every man they found who could channel.

 

Remember in the Eye of the World, people thought that the Dragon *was* the Dark One, or close enough to it. Men who could channel were the stuff of nightmares, and even the AS automatically dismissed such people as a danger that needed to be eradicated. It's very difficult to break a 3000-years-old mentality, even when it came to the Dragon Reborn.

 

Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad.

 

Exactly, everything you have said is on target. The point of argument is that whether Egwene at this point has reason or not to at least entertain the possibility that the world's would-be saviour is worthy of respect/credibility.

She assumes he is mad due to preconcieved notions. Apart from intel that he has a crazy temper, what else does she have to go on? Has he done anything outright outright crazy? Does he seem like a raving lunatic? Does Nyn, who has been close to him for a very long time, tell her that he is off his rocker? Do people she should trust not tell her that he's changed for the better? Does she not know that Saidin is cleansed, and shouldn't that count for something?

 

Is she supposed to be an important/respected leader and an intelligent opinion leader who is supposed to consider possibilities and overcome bias? Or is she she a foolish/naive farmgirl who is forgiven giving into prejudices and preconceptions without real evidence?

 

Wtf? again... Egwene has not read the WOT series yet as you have. You cannot be accused of being foolish/naive and having prejudices and [unfounded] preconceptions until you've been offered legitimate contrary evidence. And as cool as Nynaeve is she offers no concrete proof, and could easily be Ta'veren blind. Egwene will likely need to see it for herself. And Rand did no favours by saying something that would obviously sound crazy then walking away (and he did that on purpose!)

 

So yeah, she very well may consider possibilities and overcome biases, once she has a reason to do so. In the meantime, she's a leader who needs to have an opinion in case the seals break tomorrow -- she'd need to act on what she knew.

[randsc]

She has done nothing to prepare for the possibility that the seals may break tomorrow, which is the source of much of the criticism of her.

 

Personally, I suspect the seals are broken already.

[David Selig]

You're completely forgetting the fact that men who channel are doomed to go mad. For 3000 years, men who could channel were the exclusive purview of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower think that they need the Dragon Reborn because of the prophecies, but they're also convinced that the DR would also be a raving mad lunatic, hence why the need to control him.

 

The White Tower, of course, never entertained the thought that the DR could still accomplish great things even while fighting the madness. In 3000 years, they've never really bothered to study the madness, instead just gentling every man they found who could channel.

 

Remember in the Eye of the World, people thought that the Dragon *was* the Dark One, or close enough to it. Men who could channel were the stuff of nightmares, and even the AS automatically dismissed such people as a danger that needed to be eradicated. It's very difficult to break a 3000-years-old mentality, even when it came to the Dragon Reborn.

 

Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad.

 

Exactly, everything you have said is on target. The point of argument is that whether Egwene at this point has reason or not to at least entertain the possibility that the world's would-be saviour is worthy of respect/credibility.

She assumes he is mad due to preconcieved notions. Apart from intel that he has a crazy temper, what else does she have to go on? Has he done anything outright outright crazy? Does he seem like a raving lunatic? Does Nyn, who has been close to him for a very long time, tell her that he is off his rocker? Do people she should trust not tell her that he's changed for the better? Does she not know that Saidin is cleansed, and shouldn't that count for something?

 

Is she supposed to be an important/respected leader and an intelligent opinion leader who is supposed to consider possibilities and overcome bias? Or is she she a foolish/naive farmgirl who is forgiven giving into prejudices and preconceptions without real evidence?

Rand's been talking with a voice in his head for like an year, does that count as crazy enough for you? And Nynaeve told Egwene that Rand was on the edge of balefiring the best and most experienced at fighting Shadowspawn armies in the Westlands (the Borderlanders) because he felt pissed off at their leaders.

[Kahsm]

She has done nothing to prepare for the possibility that the seals may break tomorrow, which is the source of much of the criticism of her.

 

Personally, I suspect the seals are broken already.

 

Given a month she's supposed to mount a defense in case she can't convince Rand otherwise? A defense of what exactly? No one knows except maybe Rand who probably remembers what it was like just before they sealed the bore (if it will even go back to that and not be worse). But Rand refused to give her any details about it. Plus I don't believe he ever expected or wanted her to plan for that. He just said "That's why I came to you, to let you plan". And now we know he wanted her to plan on how to oppose him, not plan how to defend the world. He never specified to her what he wanted her plan, very Aes Sedai sneaky of him to give such a non-lie.

[XXX]

As an aside...Rand has 3 seals with him. Doesn't Egwene have 1 or is that one broken?

[anotherfingolfin]

You're completely forgetting the fact that men who channel are doomed to go mad. For 3000 years, men who could channel were the exclusive purview of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower think that they need the Dragon Reborn because of the prophecies, but they're also convinced that the DR would also be a raving mad lunatic, hence why the need to control him.

 

The White Tower, of course, never entertained the thought that the DR could still accomplish great things even while fighting the madness. In 3000 years, they've never really bothered to study the madness, instead just gentling every man they found who could channel.

 

Remember in the Eye of the World, people thought that the Dragon *was* the Dark One, or close enough to it. Men who could channel were the stuff of nightmares, and even the AS automatically dismissed such people as a danger that needed to be eradicated. It's very difficult to break a 3000-years-old mentality, even when it came to the Dragon Reborn.

 

Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad.

 

Exactly, everything you have said is on target. The point of argument is that whether Egwene at this point has reason or not to at least entertain the possibility that the world's would-be saviour is worthy of respect/credibility.

She assumes he is mad due to preconcieved notions. Apart from intel that he has a crazy temper, what else does she have to go on? Has he done anything outright outright crazy? Does he seem like a raving lunatic? Does Nyn, who has been close to him for a very long time, tell her that he is off his rocker? Do people she should trust not tell her that he's changed for the better? Does she not know that Saidin is cleansed, and shouldn't that count for something?

 

Is she supposed to be an important/respected leader and an intelligent opinion leader who is supposed to consider possibilities and overcome bias? Or is she she a foolish/naive farmgirl who is forgiven giving into prejudices and preconceptions without real evidence?

Rand's been talking with a voice in his head for like an year, does that count as crazy enough for you? And she Nynaeve told Egwene that Rand was on the edge of balefiring the best and more experienced at fighting Shadowspawn armies in the Westlands (the Borderlanders) because he felt pissed off at their leaders.

 

I see what you're saying. Fair points. What I guess I was saying is, has his peculiar mental state resulted in any particularly psychotic actions. Has his madness altered his judgment in anyway, so as to make it glaringly the act of a madman.

I think of him Balefiring Graendal's palace. Not because I think killing all those compelled husks was bad, just that it was reckless of him to unleash that much balefire on the world. Regarding the Borderlanders, I guess the fact that he DIDN'T end up doing it is vindication enough for me. Both could be passed of as murderous rage, rather than madness in the sense that he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

The talking to LTT didn't ever bother me much. Probably because in a world where we have knowledge of specific souls being reborn, it didn't strike me as odd.

 

Anyway, I was basically responding to SolarZ's statement "Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad." My criticism is that, it's wrong/bad if the ultimate root of her opposition is because she thinks he is mad, rather than an appraisal of his proposal.

 

EDIT: @ David Selig- I realise that response was pretty incoherent, but I hope it comes across.

[solarz]

Anyway, I was basically responding to SolarZ's statement "Even Egwene's desire to oppose Rand ultimately stems from the fact that she still thinks Rand is mad." My criticism is that, it's wrong/bad if the ultimate root of her opposition is because she thinks he is mad, rather than an appraisal of his proposal.

 

Another poster said it best: "Egwene hasn't read the WoT series like you have."

 

Remember that for 3000 years, men who could channel were DOOMED to go mad. Doomed, as in, NO EXCEPTIONS! Why would anyone expect the Dragon Reborn to be any different, especially when his previous incarnation was named the KINSLAYER?

 

*WE* know that Saidin was cleansed. *WE* know that Rand was fighting his madness. Problem is, does Egwene know or believe? This is very much a case of guilty until proven innocent, and so far, Rand hasn't provided much evidence of his innocence/sanity (that Egwene knows of).

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

And just to remind those people who have a habit of forgetting.

 

Removing the taint DOES NOT REMOVE MADNESS. Whatever Madness has come STAYS. It just won't get worse. Egwene could legitimately believe that Rand had cleansed Saidin and was still mad in the head. Which was what happened.