Zen Rand

[Vambram]

 

I think he is the opposite of inhuman. He was shown doing some very human things in ToM. Here is a small list: saving the apples, hugging his father, fixing problems that he helped cause in Arad Doman, apologizing to Hurin, and just expressing emotion in gener to those around him (other then anger).

 

How is showing mercy monstrous? No, it is not the right thing to do, but it does fit with the whole saviour thing. His responsibility to the world is to face the Dark One, not to kill every human Darkfriend. In fact, them reporting back to other Dark Friends about what they saw could reduce morale among the "Darkside."

 

Hmm, I did not feel that way about the Rand Sedai scene. I will agree on the Saidared thing though.

 

 

+1 QFT

[Luckers]

Zen Rand was a pretty big problem for me... he's inhuman. Only a stoner or a sociopath would be as calm as he is in the face of what occurs, and when you add it to his random, unexplained new powers... its creepy.

 

And aside from creepy, him releasing Weiramon and Anaiyella is pretty monstrous... the things those two would have done as darkfriends, much less what they might do, deserved justice. I don't care if Rand got a hug from his dad for the first time in years, he has a responsibility to the world...

 

Though, that being said, I am waiting on aMoL before making my final judgement. It may be something more is going on here as the OP suggested. I frankly hope so, because if Rand is genuinely as he seems to be in TofM it would be a killing point on the series for me.

 

 

Btw I hate Rand Sedai... not because of the concept, its amusing--but it was bluntly written. A bit like Mat's 'I assumed you saidared it.' from tGS. A wink to the readers that feels forced in its portrayal in the story.

 

I think he is the opposite of inhuman. He was shown doing some very human things in ToM. Here is a small list: saving the apples, hugging his father, fixing problems that he helped cause in Arad Doman, apologizing to Hurin, and just expressing emotion in gener to those around him (other then anger).

 

How is showing mercy monstrous? No, it is not the right thing to do, but it does fit with the whole saviour thing. His responsibility to the world is to face the Dark One, not to kill every human Darkfriend. In fact, them reporting back to other Dark Friends about what they saw could reduce morale among the "Darkside."

 

Hmm, I did not feel that way about the Rand Sedai scene. I will agree on the Saidared thing though.

 

 

Here is the thing though... Those things u describe are inhuman for the simple fact that they are too perfect. People use the phrase 'what would Jesus do' for a reason, and that reason is that what Jesus would do is invariably what people do not do.

 

It does not mean people are not good or, back on topic, that I think rand should be incapable of apologizing, in fact I will make clear here that I have no problem with rand making amends, my problem is with his attitude. When apples start growing around u and bad guys can't look at u because of your inner light, u don't nod sagely or smile benignly accepting it as your right. It's not a normal human response its... What Jesus would do...

 

What is worse is that rands calmness in situations makes the extravagant excess of his sorrow ring false.

 

And I'm sorry, rands exercised political and legal authority when he freed weiramon and anaiyella. His job as champion of the light may have no requirements for this, but his claiming of those powers draw upon him responsibilities that do have nothing to do with that role.

 

If he wanted no part in their trial on that day he should have handed them over to darlin to stand trial under tairen law. In freeing them he freed criminals, and worse in sending them back to the shadow he set in motion the perpetuation of their crimes. So yes even if there is no prophecy saying be should be responsible for that he is.

[EpitomyofShyness]

Well Jesus is one of Rand's many parallels, along with Buddha, Mithra, Kalki, and Shiva. (info found on Thirteenth Depository)

 

So him 'Doing what Jesus would do' isn't exactly that unexpected.

 

For me anyways.

 

Although I will admit, Rand crying and talking to Sian irked me a little, the crying scene more so. It's not that I don't think he wouldn't cry it was just.... I dunno. Maybe a tear sliding down his cheek? And then whispering about how much wrong he's done only just loud enough for his father and Min to hear? Meh. Overall I like Zen Rand, just a few areas that made me cringe. However I don't know what was in RJ's notes, so maybe this is the way it was supposed to be. I know I would not question it in the slightest if it had been RJ writing a similar scene.

 

The scene where he is reunited with Tam felt rushed overall imo. Nynaeve would never ever say "Er, yes." *crrringe*

[The Fallen One]

Zen Rand was a pretty big problem for me... he's inhuman. Only a stoner or a sociopath would be as calm as he is in the face of what occurs, and when you add it to his random, unexplained new powers... its creepy.

 

And aside from creepy, him releasing Weiramon and Anaiyella is pretty monstrous... the things those two would have done as darkfriends, much less what they might do, deserved justice. I don't care if Rand got a hug from his dad for the first time in years, he has a responsibility to the world...

 

Though, that being said, I am waiting on aMoL before making my final judgement. It may be something more is going on here as the OP suggested. I frankly hope so, because if Rand is genuinely as he seems to be in TofM it would be a killing point on the series for me.

 

 

Btw I hate Rand Sedai... not because of the concept, its amusing--but it was bluntly written. A bit like Mat's 'I assumed you saidared it.' from tGS. A wink to the readers that feels forced in its portrayal in the story.

 

I think he is the opposite of inhuman. He was shown doing some very human things in ToM. Here is a small list: saving the apples, hugging his father, fixing problems that he helped cause in Arad Doman, apologizing to Hurin, and just expressing emotion in gener to those around him (other then anger).

 

How is showing mercy monstrous? No, it is not the right thing to do, but it does fit with the whole saviour thing. His responsibility to the world is to face the Dark One, not to kill every human Darkfriend. In fact, them reporting back to other Dark Friends about what they saw could reduce morale among the "Darkside."

 

Hmm, I did not feel that way about the Rand Sedai scene. I will agree on the Saidared thing though.

 

 

Here is the thing though... Those things u describe are inhuman for the simple fact that they are too perfect. People use the phrase 'what would Jesus do' for a reason, and that reason is that what Jesus would do is invariably what people do not do.

 

It does not mean people are not good or, back on topic, that I think rand should be incapable of apologizing, in fact I will make clear here that I have no problem with rand making amends, my problem is with his attitude. When apples start growing around u and bad guys can't look at u because of your inner light, u don't nod sagely or smile benignly accepting it as your right. It's not a normal human response its... What Jesus would do...

 

What is worse is that rands calmness in situations makes the extravagant excess of his sorrow ring false.

 

And I'm sorry, rands exercised political and legal authority when he freed weiramon and anaiyella. His job as champion of the light may have no requirements for this, but his claiming of those powers draw upon him responsibilities that do have nothing to do with that role.

 

If he wanted no part in their trial on that day he should have handed them over to darlin to stand trial under tairen law. In freeing them he freed criminals, and worse in sending them back to the shadow he set in motion the perpetuation of their crimes. So yes even if there is no prophecy saying be should be responsible for that he is.

 

I see where you are comming from and I know from following these forums that you are not a fan of the Jesus/Rand ideas, but that seems to be exactly what has happened.

 

Well, I agree that his reaction is not the normal human response to all the special things going on around him is not the response of a normal human. However, he is not really normal anymore. If he did not have the memories of another 400 year life time perhaps he would have probably reacted differently. It seems to me that Rand has knowledge of why he has all of these new powers so it is not a huge deal to him.

 

One could argue that his calmness comes from LTT experiences in life. After all, he has seen the entire world ravaged by war, sealed the Dark One, and done some pretty terrible things in maddness.

 

I am not arguing that him letting those two go was in any way right. In fact I think it was wrong, however it was not monsterous. On one hand, as a saviour figure, he showed mercy. On the other hand, as a political leader, he could have made the decision to put the fear of the Light into dark friends. Either way, it probably seemed like the right decision to Rand.

 

You are right in saying that he has political and social responsibility to the people. He took this on himself and should be held accountable for it. However, it seems like he is trying to move away from a direct hand in the worlds affairs and try to hand it back to the various peoples. I think that is the right decision, but that he is acting to soon on it. He should be holding on to his responsibity as a political leader until he formally hands it over. I am guessing that will happen at the FoM.

[Stitch]

Ive been reconsidering my position a little and I have to say the abruptness of the change was actually REQUIRED.... firstly for practical reasons...

 

Personality shifts or redefinitions can occur either gradually (such as taking several books to go from the naive rand who had just proclaimed himself the DR at the fall of Tear to become the hardass rand we all know and love, during this time we see a gradual shift along with numerous events which support that outlook such as kidnapping, betrayals etc) or else abruptly in which case they need an event that is important to the character (even if no one else) otherwise they seem strangely out of character (such as rands shift from emotionally restrained hardass to barely suppressed sociopath after nearly killing after nearly killing Min)

 

Given that, his shift towards Zen Rand would fall into the later category, a dramatic triggered personality shift.... however in the case of Dark Rand the change that occurred was that his dominant behaviours (and indeed personality traits) became more pronounced, this made it easier to relate to, given that it was still the same RAND, just with the 'flaws' being more evident. On the other hand, the change to Zen Rand was not a movement in either direction or if so was a massive shift along multiple directions - the result being a CHARACTER that was not Rand as we have come to know him.

 

To have achieved this same shift using the gradual change approach would have taken a LONG time, so for practical reasons that wasnt appropriate.

 

The second reason I believe is that the abruptness of the change and Alien-ess of the character that emerged were desired; combined with people reacting more positively to him (though they shouldn't, they should be freaked out - given that he is a male channeller it would be natural to assume he is now mad given his sudden and overwhelming personality change) I believe that this is an attempt by the writing team to support the idea that the traits that made hard and dark Rand (emotional suppression, self flagellation, ruthlessness, Machiavellian tendencies etc) are 'bad' or at the least less desirable than the qualities of this new Zen character.

 

LTT rewired his brain, that's what happened.

Perhaps LITERALLY - given those lines of power(?) in his brain that Nyn saw. Something that has not cured his madness (the black stuff is still there) yet holds it at bay(?).

Edited June 30, 2011 by Stitch

[Luckers]

I see where you are comming from and I know from following these forums that you are not a fan of the Jesus/Rand ideas, but that seems to be exactly what has happened.

 

 

I agree... that does seem to be precisely what has happened. And unfortunately I find that problematic--initially, because it was not what RJ intended...

 

Ishamael: How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords... How representational of Jesus Christ is Rand?

 

RJ: Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes, but he is intended to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in anyway.

 

But, here is the thing, even had RJ intended it, I would have a problem. For one, the reason i love the Wheel beyond any other is that it is so multi-layered. And, if you know my arguments, you know I've always thought that Jesus was one of the least influential mythological contributions to Rand--but even accepting I'm wrong, here is my problem--this still isn't Rand with traits drawn from Jesus. This is Jesus calling himself Rand, like he called himself Aslan in Narnia. There is a difference between character influences, and characters basis.

 

My feeling here--and I'm hoping I'm wrong, I'm hoping there is some twist coming as a result of Rand's zen-like calm (like maybe he's on a spiritual high which will make him more confident than he should be :))--but my feeling is that there was in the notes that the indication of post-VoG Rand is a much more enlightened place, and that when Sanderson thought of an enlightened person he--much as all westerners--thought of Jesus. That is, after all, what enlightenment is supposed to look like.

 

But I don't buy it. It's too... flat. One dimensional. Boring--and quite frankly annoying to read about. Perfection is always better in theory than reality.

 

Well, I agree that his reaction is not the normal human response to all the special things going on around him is not the response of a normal human. However, he is not really normal anymore. If he did not have the memories of another 400 year life time perhaps he would have probably reacted differently. It seems to me that Rand has knowledge of why he has all of these new powers so it is not a huge deal to him.

 

I don't buy that either. For one we see others who lived hundreds of years, and no sign of such divine calm, and Lews Therin, for all his arrogance, and as Graendal stated it, his sanctimoniousness, he never seemed... Jesusy. He was a warleader, a general, and by all acounts a pretty good man... but not divine, not zen.

 

I am not arguing that him letting those two go was in any way right. In fact I think it was wrong, however it was not monsterous. On one hand, as a saviour figure, he showed mercy. On the other hand, as a political leader, he could have made the decision to put the fear of the Light into dark friends. Either way, it probably seemed like the right decision to Rand.

 

You are right in saying that he has political and social responsibility to the people. He took this on himself and should be held accountable for it. However, it seems like he is trying to move away from a direct hand in the worlds affairs and try to hand it back to the various peoples. I think that is the right decision, but that he is acting to soon on it. He should be holding on to his responsibity as a political leader until he formally hands it over. I am guessing that will happen at the FoM.

 

*shrug* He chose to act as a political and legal authority, therefore he gets judged as a political and legal authority. And a ruler not only letting a darkfriend go, but directing them to return to the fold of the Shadow, and presumably therefore continuing their nefarious work--yes, thats monstrous, and now anything crimes they commit are completely Rand's fault.

 

In effect, that Rand is a messianic figure does not absolve him of his responsibilities. If he's acting, its on him, and that he's the Dragon changes nothing.

 

 

 

In any case, my point is simply that if Rand is truly and genuinely as he seems to be, then I personally don't like it. It's sloppy, a Marty Sue personality change that goes too far along the spectrum of 'Rand getting better after VoG'.

[Kahsm]

Just to clear something up, some have questioned the abruptness of Rand's personality change given the integration of LTT memories. Well that's because Rand did not get memories, he got LTT's personality.

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NY, NY - 7 January 2003 - David Funcke reporting

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

 

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

The memories are obviously part of that personality, as it's LTT's experiences and memories that defined his personality. But it's not jsut the memories and experiences that Rand acquired, it was the whole LTT personality, hence the quick shift.

 

However, as discussed in another thread, this doesn't make him LTT because Rand still exists, they've been merged. He's LTT with Rand's experiences and perspectives added on. So back in COT when RJ made that quote, it was Rand with 2 personalities in his head. Now that he's 'enlightened' the two have merged into 1 that is influenced by both.

 

Also note that Rand's side of things has the benefit of the long-term perspective on how LTT's actions effected the world, and that will drastically change how certain things affect "Zen Rand" compared to how they had affected LTT (further complicating the new personality). However, LTT's rather formal way of speaking is a simple understanding of grammar and diction that Rand picked up quite quickly because that's more a "right/wrong" thing.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Kael Pyralis

[Superhal]

I agree with the "feels forced and fake" idea. Because of the glacial pacing of the books before, and the requirement to finally complete the story within the next three books, BS can be excused at the almost racing nature of the books. The fakeness, however, regardless of why, is there because it's just so different than what came before. The same thing happened to Mat and the whole "Boots" speech. On the other hand, Perrin's transformation was more gradual with clear, necessary steps, and he didn't really change his behavior, he just accepted it (his outward actions remained the same, but his inner dialogue stopped whining about it.)

[EvilSocrates]

I think part of the reason Rand is behaving somewhat oddly is that he is still discovering and coming to terms with who exactly he is now. He makes that remark "I thought I was beyond such anger now, but I guess I have to be angry sometimes too" after A Storm of Light (paraphrased). Indicates that he has found a new peace, but isn't sure exactly how to feel about it/what balance to strike.

 

He also seems a bit...giddy, which I think is totally fair. I mean he was in horrible agony and madness and despair, and then he was suddenly healed and found hope. He can see without madness for the first time in years (?), has hope, doesn't have LTT screaming at him, and is finally not furious all the time. I think after an emotional experience like that, you would both laugh and cry a little more easily for a while until you regained some emotional composure--hence the Tam scene. He doesn't have his barriers anymore so he needs a little time and space before his head is entirely on straight. All this is without even considering the LTT memories.

 

Re: Sanche questioning, I think that made sense along similar lines. He is letting himself feel things again, and he is understandably interested in what HIS OWN reaction would be to seeing Egwene as Amyrlin when he wasn't in a crazed rage void. I think his new mental state and merger with LTT is a puzzle to him, which is part of the reason he spends so much time meditating on a cloud.

 

I think the final Rand outcome will be something like how he was with Egwene really. I thought that scene read quite plausibly for him. He comes in, is curious about Egwene b/c she was a childhood friend, is a little sad at the distance between them (and at using her) but he manipulates her into gathering the world's armies. He does so somewhat formally, but also playfully (his bow and smile after she yells at him for turning his back). As mentioned, he has become very much the noble and philosopher and, well, king. In addition to Moiraine schooling, he has spent most of the series out-smarting people at court and at war and trying to puzzle out the prophesies (with some success). He also founded the first universities in this age. Between that and LTT personality seepage, he was already pretty formal and scholarly--look at how Dark Rand (embarrassingly) treats Tam when he first meets him (before he freaks). Very formal. Now he is still somewhat formal and philosophical, like he always was, he just isn't a huge dick who is brimming with rage all the time, so he is a little more playful and compassionate like how he used to be as a kid in the TR. Felt right to me.

[Puny]

I think part of the reason Rand is behaving somewhat oddly is that he is still discovering and coming to terms with who exactly he is now. He makes that remark "I thought I was beyond such anger now, but I guess I have to be angry sometimes too" after A Storm of Light (paraphrased). Indicates that he has found a new peace, but isn't sure exactly how to feel about it/what balance to strike.

 

He also seems a bit...giddy, which I think is totally fair. I mean he was in horrible agony and madness and despair, and then he was suddenly healed and found hope. He can see without madness for the first time in years (?), has hope, doesn't have LTT screaming at him, and is finally not furious all the time. I think after an emotional experience like that, you would both laugh and cry a little more easily for a while until you regained some emotional composure--hence the Tam scene. He doesn't have his barriers anymore so he needs a little time and space before his head is entirely on straight. All this is without even considering the LTT memories.

 

Re: Sanche questioning, I think that made sense along similar lines. He is letting himself feel things again, and he is understandably interested in what HIS OWN reaction would be to seeing Egwene as Amyrlin when he wasn't in a crazed rage void. I think his new mental state and merger with LTT is a puzzle to him, which is part of the reason he spends so much time meditating on a cloud.

 

I think the final Rand outcome will be something like how he was with Egwene really. I thought that scene read quite plausibly for him. He comes in, is curious about Egwene b/c she was a childhood friend, is a little sad at the distance between them (and at using her) but he manipulates her into gathering the world's armies. He does so somewhat formally, but also playfully (his bow and smile after she yells at him for turning his back). As mentioned, he has become very much the noble and philosopher and, well, king. In addition to Moiraine schooling, he has spent most of the series out-smarting people at court and at war and trying to puzzle out the prophesies (with some success). He also founded the first universities in this age. Between that and LTT personality seepage, he was already pretty formal and scholarly--look at how Dark Rand (embarrassingly) treats Tam when he first meets him (before he freaks). Very formal. Now he is still somewhat formal and philosophical, like he always was, he just isn't a huge dick who is brimming with rage all the time, so he is a little more playful and compassionate like how he used to be as a kid in the TR. Felt right to me.

 

+1

 

The abruptness and the sense of feeling fake I think has abit to do with us waiting so long for each book. I think and hope that when I reach ToM on my new read it will all feel... connected. And I think it will. PoD flowed like a charm when I read it and WH will be a breeze. So the sense of disconnection will lessen I think. But here is supposed to be a dramatic shift from Dark Rand to Rand Sedai.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Logains Pet

[solarz]

I'm on my second fifth or sixth re-read of the series, but only the second re-read of Knife of Dreams onward. I'm in the middle of TOM, and what's remarkable is that I get teary eyed whenever JesusRand does something.

 

It's the stark contrast with DarthRand that we saw in TGS. When Rand balefired Graendal's keep, all traces of the Rand from EOTW was gone. Then we see him leaving Bandar Eban to its fate, having just learned that all the food he sent was spoiled. Finally, we see him stringing up Hurin in the air and interrogating him. Hurin was the starkest reminder of how much Rand has changed since TGH.

 

So when I read the Apples First chapter, it was overwhelming to see how much the old Rand has returned, except wiser and more experienced. I hadn't seen that Rand since TSR.

 

The passages of JesusRand did not strike me as inhuman or unrealistic. It struck me as how someone who was 400 years old (possibly much older, Rand mentioned that he remembered *all* his past lives) would act, someone with a keen understanding of human nature, a stupendous amount of charisma, and a knowledge of how to bring out the best in people.

 

When JesusRand returned to Bandar Eban, he restored the city (or began the process of restoring the city) with only a few calm words. That Rand could see beyond appearance and find the good of everyone he met. When he met thugs barring his way, he didn't intimidate them with his power, or kill them with his sword. He simply spoke to them, and turned them to his side with a few words.