Perrin's Trial

[UncleButcher1980]

Hooper (Richard Dreyfuss) is the guy with glasses who is tying the barrels. Quint (Robert Shaw)is the guy with the harpoon gun.

I was just making a small joke about Hooper instead of Hopper is all.

 

 

D'oh! I spelled his name wrong, got it. See, I'm both slow and probably mildly dyslexic. (Or just a bad speller.)

[jsbrads]

Durinax - Bornhald not actually that reasonable, he is a WC and he knew Perrin and Egwene were DF, period.

the fact that he wasn't foaming at the mouth like Byar, and he spoke in a calm voice doesn't change his WC leanings.

WC could not think of a good reason for two kids to be out there and there were wolves in the area, any people must be DF.

Reread Bornhald you will see what i'm saying.

 

Evil Socrates - temporary insanity doesn't excuse people, but it also doesn't mean that they need to be institutionalized either. Perrin went with temp. insanity. Temporary insanity (from all my TV learnings) is when moments after a person's best friend is killed, he lashes out... No premeditation with under extreme emotional duress.

[Hybrid]

Durinax - Bornhald not actually that reasonable, he is a WC and he knew Perrin and Egwene were DF, period.

the fact that he wasn't foaming at the mouth like Byar, and he spoke in a calm voice doesn't change his WC leanings.

WC could not think of a good reason for two kids to be out there and there were wolves in the area, any people must be DF.

Reread Bornhald you will see what i'm saying.

 

Actually, while you are right that Bornhald is just as fanatical in his own right, Bornhald condemns Perrin to death due to his killing of two of the Children.

 

It is true that Perrin and Egwene were unlikely to be treated well. But the fact of the matter is that Perrin attacked the Children. It wasn't self defense. He did what he had to do, but he still has to pay the price.

[Kahsm]

Durinax - Bornhald not actually that reasonable, he is a WC and he knew Perrin and Egwene were DF, period.

the fact that he wasn't foaming at the mouth like Byar, and he spoke in a calm voice doesn't change his WC leanings.

WC could not think of a good reason for two kids to be out there and there were wolves in the area, any people must be DF.

Reread Bornhald you will see what i'm saying.

 

Actually, while you are right that Bornhald is just as fanatical in his own right, Bornhald condemns Perrin to death due to his killing of two of the Children.

 

It is true that Perrin and Egwene were unlikely to be treated well. But the fact of the matter is that Perrin attacked the Children. It wasn't self defense. He did what he had to do, but he still has to pay the price.

 

Well, IIRC, he did still think they were DFs, though not because they killed the children. It had to do with the finely crafted axe and Moirs Tar Valon coin and something else I think. He was still pretty certain, but he's at least more reasonable in that he was going to follow protocol and hand them to questioners, and he seemed to feel remorse for the fact that they wouldn't be treated fairly by the questioners.

[Hybrid]

Ah, OK. I haven't read the books in a little while, so I've forgotten a lot of minor details.

 

That being said, my point still stands (I know you're not trying to refute my point, Kael, I'm just clarifying).

 

No matter how justified Perrin was in killing the Children in retrospect, he was still wrong to do so unprovoked.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Hybrid

[EvilSocrates]

Durinax - Bornhald not actually that reasonable, he is a WC and he knew Perrin and Egwene were DF, period.

the fact that he wasn't foaming at the mouth like Byar, and he spoke in a calm voice doesn't change his WC leanings.

WC could not think of a good reason for two kids to be out there and there were wolves in the area, any people must be DF.

Reread Bornhald you will see what i'm saying.

 

Evil Socrates - temporary insanity doesn't excuse people, but it also doesn't mean that they need to be institutionalized either. Perrin went with temp. insanity. Temporary insanity (from all my TV learnings) is when moments after a person's best friend is killed, he lashes out... No premeditation with under extreme emotional duress.

 

Turns out TV is not the best source for legal education. Fewer student loans though! Temporary insanity is treated no differently than a normal insanity defense--it is just the argument that, at the time of the crime, the defendant was not legally sane, but now (at time of trial) he is. If that turns out to be true, then you are correct that the defendant is not institutionalized, because they are no longer insane. They still receive an acquittal though--they walk. You seem to be confusing temporary insanity with extreme emotional disturbance or something, which is usually only a mitigating factor, not a defense. Remember, an insanity defense requires an actual mental disease or defect, not just "I was really really upset/mad/sad/hungry/confused/etc."

 

Perrin ARGUED extreme emotional disturbance to Morgase, which was a mistake on his part, and appeared to receive something like a manslaughter charge, which is roughly right on that theory. He SHOULD have played up the "I'm a werewolf thing" to mean "I was going crazy with voices in my head" not "wolves are my buddies and I get angry when they die. And I ax the crap out of people when angered!" This is why you should not represent yourself in your own murder trial.

 

Perrin was probably not legally sane at the time that he committed the homicides--and probably was still crazy and dangerous for a good bit afterwards. However, he seems to have cured himself by the time of the Morgase trial, so it would not have been needed then. Who needs lithium when you have magic wolf spirit dream guides to treat mental illness?

[jsbrads]

hybrid - I don't understand how you can say, when perrin is captured by WC they will kill as DF, but he shouldn't lash out in an unprovoked attack?!

 

His most effective method of self-defense is to surprise attack the murderers and try to kill them all before they are get a chance to kill Perrin.

[Durinax]

hybrid - I don't understand how you can say, when perrin is captured by WC they will kill as DF, but he shouldn't lash out in an unprovoked attack?!

 

His most effective method of self-defense is to surprise attack the murderers and try to kill them all before they are get a chance to kill Perrin.

if your the one attacking how is it self defence?

[Aspar]

I don't have the books in English, so can't give you an exact quote, but it is clearly stated that "all thoughts has left him" (translation back to English) and that Perrin was in pain. It is clearly written that he wasn't sane at that moment. Temporary insanity. This is if we accept the WC as a legitimate police force, which has the authority to arrest people in Andor. If not then Perrin had all the right to attack them as they threatened to kill him if he doesn't surrender.

[Hybrid]

hybrid - I don't understand how you can say, when perrin is captured by WC they will kill as DF, but he shouldn't lash out in an unprovoked attack?!

 

His most effective method of self-defense is to surprise attack the murderers and try to kill them all before they are get a chance to kill Perrin.

if your the one attacking how is it self defence?

 

Exactly.

 

jsbrads, don't get me wrong. I think Perrin was justified in acting as he did. But his actions were illegal under Andor's laws. If he's going to submit himself under Andoran law, then he pays the price for his actions.

[Dakota]

Regardless of Perrin's insanity or not, he was being accosted by a foreign military group, one that was pretty well known for kidnapping people, holding kangaroo courts regarding their darkfriend status, and oftentimes accompanied with torture and execution. I don't think it's a far stretch to believe that someone would believe they would need to resort to extreme force in order to protect themselves.

 

If someone living in the southern part of the US finds themselves being accosted by members of a Mexican Drug Cartel, known for kidnapping and executing people who interfere, or are even merely accused of interfering, with the drug cartel's operations, and that person defends themselves with force and kills one or more members of the cartel, would they be guilty of murder by US laws if it takes place on US soil?

[Durinax]

Regardless of Perrin's insanity or not, he was being accosted by a foreign military group, one that was pretty well known for kidnapping people, holding kangaroo courts regarding their darkfriend status, and oftentimes accompanied with torture and execution. I don't think it's a far stretch to believe that someone would believe they would need to resort to extreme force in order to protect themselves.

 

If someone living in the southern part of the US finds themselves being accosted by members of a Mexican Drug Cartel, known for kidnapping and executing people who interfere, or are even merely accused of interfering, with the drug cartel's operations, and that person defends themselves with force and kills one or more members of the cartel, would they be guilty of murder by US laws if it takes place on US soil?

yes but your conveniently avoiding the fact that Perrin knew nothing about teh WC's! that is why no matter what it dont matter, he was unprovoked in attack. if your hiding out in the dark, and a group of people ask you to come out repeatedly, then jump out and attack them your in the wrong no matter what

[Aspar]

yes but your conveniently avoiding the fact that Perrin knew nothing about teh WC's! that is why no matter what it dont matter, he was unprovoked in attack. if your hiding out in the dark, and a group of people ask you to come out repeatedly, then jump out and attack them your in the wrong no matter what

 

You sound like they asked him politely to come out and have a cup of tea. Instead they threatened to kill him if he doesn't surrender. They did provoke him. The moment they made that threat Perrin could attack in self defence as there was an immediate danger to his life.

[Dakota]

Regardless of Perrin's insanity or not, he was being accosted by a foreign military group, one that was pretty well known for kidnapping people, holding kangaroo courts regarding their darkfriend status, and oftentimes accompanied with torture and execution. I don't think it's a far stretch to believe that someone would believe they would need to resort to extreme force in order to protect themselves.

 

If someone living in the southern part of the US finds themselves being accosted by members of a Mexican Drug Cartel, known for kidnapping and executing people who interfere, or are even merely accused of interfering, with the drug cartel's operations, and that person defends themselves with force and kills one or more members of the cartel, would they be guilty of murder by US laws if it takes place on US soil?

yes but your conveniently avoiding the fact that Perrin knew nothing about teh WC's! that is why no matter what it dont matter, he was unprovoked in attack. if your hiding out in the dark, and a group of people ask you to come out repeatedly, then jump out and attack them your in the wrong no matter what

Not so much conveniently avoiding, as much as it's been a long time since I read that passage and don't remember the specifics. Was Perrin ignorant as to the Whitecloaks and their reputation? Did he know who the Whitecloaks were but not know that these guys were Whitecloaks?

And if Aspar is correct, they did threaten to kill him if he didn't surrender. That's not -entirely- unprovoked.

[Aspar]

Was Perrin ignorant as to the Whitecloaks and their reputation? Did he know who the Whitecloaks were but not know that these guys were Whitecloaks?

 

 

I think he new at least something about their reputation.Rand knows about it in Baerlon. And Perrin felt a bad smell coming from them.

 

He also definitely knew these were WC in the forest.

[Durinax]

Was Perrin ignorant as to the Whitecloaks and their reputation? Did he know who the Whitecloaks were but not know that these guys were Whitecloaks?

 

 

I think he new at least something about their reputation.Rand knows about it in Baerlon. And Perrin felt a bad smell coming from them.

 

He also definitely knew these were WC in the forest.

Perrins only interactions with any WC's was when they tried to leave baerlon. when they tried to stop moraine from leaving

 

Perrin was also coming out of the hiding spot when he did the big surprise attack, in peace until he attacked.

[jsbrads]

he knew they smelled like rabid dogs

 

he had seen their behavior before that night

 

he was warned by the other wolf-man to run for his life

 

the wolves warned that it was kill or be killed

 

on that night they continued to chase after he fled the campsite, accosted him at the statue...

 

Look deeply my friends, if you will, that "non-violent" request for him to allow himself to be arrested was a prelude to his torture and death, don't be fooled by the speech of mad people...

[KaptainKaos]

Yeah I would really like to lay all the blame on the Whitecloaks here but its pretty difficult when they captured Perrin rather than kill him after he had just slaughtered two of their own. It was a response from Perrin's more primal side, his usual care and caution thrown away in the heat of the moment. One thing I tend to forget because we see so much from his perspective is that Perrin appears to others in the WoT world much different than he appears to us as readers. We see the inner turmoil and his reluctance to do harm to others which blinds us to the true horror that is Lord Perrin Goldeneyes.

[Cheyboygan]

On 8/8/2011 at 6:32 PM, Durinax said:

yes but your conveniently avoiding the fact that Perrin knew nothing about teh WC's! that is why no matter what it dont matter, he was unprovoked in attack. if your hiding out in the dark, and a group of people ask you to come out repeatedly, then jump out and attack them your in the wrong no matter what

He did know about the White Cloaks though.  The Two Rivers gang had previously fled Baerlon for fear of being murdered by White Cloaks.