Is Lan Overrated??

[Justanotherfacet]

Does anyone else think Lan's blademaster ranking might be just a little bit overrated???

 

Now bear with me, don't just read the title and go ape at me, read it, think about it and make a honest answer.

 

 

Yes i've read how badass Lan is and i think he is awesome. Yes RJ and BS have told us he's number one, but the dude's like 50 years old now...

 

Anyone who knows anything about fighting or any intense competitive sport knows that by that age in your career (or more like retirement) your reactions are a mere shadow of the past and after that many years of hard work, training and fighting your joints are worn and stiff and your injurys have accumulated...

 

Plus these guys don't have the luxury of reconstructive surgery, nutritionists and doctors which keep our generation of people healthier than ever before, for longer. (Im talking about athletes btw, not fattys)

 

Aes Sedai healing heals but it doesn't stop you from aging nor does it turn back the clock.

 

Lung function has decreased quite dramatically and recovery time has increased, your muscles are less efficient and you tire out exponentially faster than as a young'un.

 

- Incredible skill can only get you so far when your mind and body cant keep up and Lan is ooolllddd.

 

Personally I'd put 2H Rand, Mat, Gawyn, the Ogier Hartha, some 30 or so year old Aiel, perhaps Perrin up in the "its anyones fight" category due to physical superiority, exceptional talent and above all - The best teachers.

 

Dont get me wrong, Lan, Rhuarc and the old awesomes are still badass - but they're teachers, tacticians and leaders now, ushering in a new generation of fighters.

 

In a real life sense Lan is Randy Couture, Lyoto Machida is our middle age badass warders and Jon Bones Jones is the new gen... To fast, too strong, too healthy and due to excellent training (from Lan etc) they're a tonne better than their senseis were at their age.

 

Who knows how good Lan would have been if he had his future self to teach him how to fight back when he was 20. One thing we know for sure is that he would be a hell of a lot better. (Scary thought really)

 

After all, each generation should be better than the last as they can rely on the lessons learnt from history.

 

Giants standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

Anyways, thoughts?

[csarmi]

tl;dr;no

[csarmi]

warder bond

[Justanotherfacet]

I always thought that the bond added on top of a persons ability/endurance/skill

 

so say you start at 100% the bond adds 10% more but if age takes away 40% or more you're sill only at 70% instead of 110% so Rand with the bond is at 110% (before hand) and Lan is at 70% and degrading...

[Ashlyn]

I don't think Lan is overrated. Yes, as a swordsman in a pure test of strenght and skill he may not always win, but his value goes much deeper than that. Without him Rand may have come undone much sooner, and he's had a fair hand in turning Nynaeve into a more likable woman. Tactically he's very good (you need more than just great generals to win a battle, you need levelheaded fighters on the ground who can rally troops and make decisions), and he's fiercely loyal to the cause.

 

On the other hand, his obsession with his solitary war against the Blight and the Shadow has somewhat hampered his usefulness to the Light. I wanted to kick him when he wouldn't let grown men make their own decision to follow him to war..

[sleepinghour]

RJ said Warders don't live longer, but hold on to vitality longer than ordinary men. As for Lan, he became a Blademaster as a teenager (this according to Team Jordan), so Ryne must have been exceptionally good in NS. Both RJ and Brandon have said Lan is the #1 swordsman; maybe that will change in a few years, but right now he's the best.

 

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time claims that even regular people lived very long lives during the Age of Legends:

 

Because of the use of the Power in health care, most people did not have to fear dying from disease or injury. The average life expectancy was between one hundred and fifty and two hundred years. For Aes Sedai it was considerably longer, since use of the One Power somehow enhanced the youth and durability of the channeler’s body, greatly extending his or her life. There are records of some Aes Sedai being considered barely middle-aged at three hundred years, and some channelers may have lived seven hundred years or more.

Which is interesting since the human body should not be able to hold up for 200 years. The AoL Aes Sedai must have known of some way to slow down or reverse the effects of aging.

[A. Pseudonym]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XHSZ-sLG3I

 

In other words, experience can override physical disability.

[Justanotherfacet]

Mmmm people are playing by the rules there which is why he can still do ok, put him in a world kendo championship and he'd get his wrinkles bashed off... RL a big dude will just club him with a thigh thick chunk of metal or grab him by the throat and tear his face off. That was not combat. That was dancing

[USURP888]

Mmmm people are playing by the rules there which is why he can still do ok, put him in a world kendo championship and he'd get his wrinkles bashed off... RL a big dude will just club him with a thigh thick chunk of metal or grab him by the throat and tear his face off. That was not combat. That was dancing

 

Mochida sensei participates yearly in the 8th Dan competition up to his 80s. in real life, he won't be using a bamboo stick but a real katana. Kendo's goal is one hit, one kill a big dude thinking to just rush onto him would be dead.

[A. Pseudonym]

Mmmm people are playing by the rules there which is why he can still do ok, put him in a world kendo championship and he'd get his wrinkles bashed off... RL a big dude will just club him with a thigh thick chunk of metal or grab him by the throat and tear his face off. That was not combat. That was dancing

 

And isn't that how swordplay is described by RJ? A dance? I think he understood this point.

 

The big dude you refer to would be cut in half and would never even get to touch Mochida. That's what a katana does.

[Justanotherfacet]

katana cant cut through chain mail, do you seriously think that this guy would be a legit contender in a worldwide championship? How about if you opened this style up to any combat/martial arts and no rules?

[USURP888]

I think he would be a legit contender to be honest. His sword skills have only improved because of his mental fortitude and spirit. I was trying to find a clip I once saw of another 10 dan master who blocked all the attacks of his opponent without ever moving from his position, if I find it again I'll post it here.

 

As far as katana's cutting power vs the european broadsword ( which is used against chainmails ) there was a nat geo documentary about it and the katana came out ahead. I have not seen a good video pitting the katana directly against a chainmail though so this video is not very convincing with regards to the katana's power against the chainmail.

 

I did watch a TV documentary once about the failed Mongolian invasion of Japan back in the Samurai-era. Every night a small band of Samurai would paddle out to the great ships and kill scores of mongolians without a single casualty. Their superior sword techniques and their superior weapon overwhelmed the mongolians onboard ( who are better fighting riding atop horses so being cooped up on a ship ). The documentary goes on to say that the Katana of the samurai is so superior that it routinely breaks the swords of the enemy.

 

From what I know, the samurais were considered the best fighters ever especially if using the katanas but I am no expert in martial arts so perhaps a more knowledgeable person could answer this one.

 

EDIT:

 

Katana vs broadsword

 

another link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-Fgtrb88Yg

[A. Pseudonym]

katana cant cut through chain mail, do you seriously think that this guy would be a legit contender in a worldwide championship? How about if you opened this style up to any combat/martial arts and no rules?

 

Well now you've changed the subject of this discussion to a matter of technique.... so I assume you've conceded the point of this thread which was that an old guy with a sword could still be threatening?

 

As to your point, if you can't slash, you stab. And you do not stab at the area of your opponents body which is armoured. Watch the video and you'll notice that both kendoka attempt to press the tip of their shinai into eachother's throat. This is the tsuki strike... which can also be used to pull the helmet off your opponent's head. (Which also historically necessitated a particular way in which the himo were tied in order to prevent this)

 

Kendo has degenerated into a sport, yes, but the underlying intent is to train a samurai how to kill an armoured enemy. Naginatado is the same, but uses a polearm very much like Mat's ashandarei.

[Smittyphi]

Lan still wins. Put somebody in chain mail and Lan laughs. They'd be way too slow. If Lan still has his sword, I still say he wins despite what fighting technique is used.

[Justanotherfacet]

"Well now you've changed the subject of this discussion to a matter of technique.... so I assume you've conceded the point of this thread which was that an old guy with a sword could still be threatening?"

 

Did i ever say Lan was no longer threatening? I explicitly stated that the man is a beast! BUT i think it would be naive and stupid to say that he couldn't train someone to be better than he ever was. OR to assume that there isn't another "Lan" walking around but 20 or 30 years younger. OR to assume that his aging, deteriorating body wont have an impact!

 

I think that this Kendo master is a lovely romantic example, but though i respect his skills, he'd be stomped by talented, trained, younger men. Reality check guys...

 

When it comes to fighting look at the old UFC legends, Fedor, little and big Noguera, Couture, Shamrock, Crocop... They hit 35+ and they become nothing more than Fodder and benchmarks for younger, fitter similarly talented guys, many of whom they have nurtured and taught. Eg Lan taught Rand, Bryne taught Gawyn/Galad - They're basically V2.0 of their masters and i think it would be an insult to the masters to say they cant produce a superior progeny!

 

(Besides Couture who managed to become Heavy Weight Champ at 47 but was then defeated by a man with very little skill but massive physical attributes)

 

btw i watched a Katana vs Chainmail doco once, the Katana is too light to penetrate the mail, which ripples and flexes and completely nullifys the attack - Not that that makes it useless, it just makes it a hell of a lot more difficult!

 

Edit: People in randland dont really use katanas do they? i got the impression they used a slightly heavier two handed sword - not broadsword - but heavier and longer all the same

[Justanotherfacet]

btw thats an awesome looking doco ima watch it once i finish ... studying :P

[USURP888]

"Well now you've changed the subject of this discussion to a matter of technique.... so I assume you've conceded the point of this thread which was that an old guy with a sword could still be threatening?"

 

Did i ever say Lan was no longer threatening? I explicitly stated that the man is a beast! BUT i think it would be naive and stupid to say that he couldn't train someone to be better than he ever was. OR to assume that there isn't another "Lan" walking around but 20 or 30 years younger. OR to assume that his aging, deteriorating body wont have an impact!

 

I think that this Kendo master is a lovely romantic example, but though i respect his skills, he'd be stomped by talented, trained, younger men. Reality check guys...

 

When it comes to fighting look at the old UFC legends, Fedor, little and big Noguera, Couture, Shamrock, Crocop... They hit 35+ and they become nothing more than Fodder and benchmarks for younger, fitter similarly talented guys, many of whom they have nurtured and taught. Eg Lan taught Rand, Bryne taught Gawyn/Galad - They're basically V2.0 of their masters and i think it would be an insult to the masters to say they cant produce a superior progeny!

 

(Besides Couture who managed to become Heavy Weight Champ at 47 but was then defeated by a man with very little skill but massive physical attributes)

 

btw i watched a Katana vs Chainmail doco once, the Katana is too light to penetrate the mail, which ripples and flexes and completely nullifys the attack - Not that that makes it useless, it just makes it a hell of a lot more difficult!

 

Edit: People in randland dont really use katanas do they? i got the impression they used a slightly heavier two handed sword - not broadsword - but heavier and longer all the same

 

fair point. If a younger guy manages to touch mochina sensei, the old man loses. But just remember that samurai of old only lose once in their life, that's the time they die so unlike a UFC fighter these samurais actually practice one slash, one kill.

 

Hand-to-hand combat is not comparable to weapons combat. In hand-to-hand martial arts, you are correct the older guy would usually lose given that talent between the two fighters are the same. But the original thread is about LAN's bladework is still the best or overrated, so I was just pointing out that in sword combat, physical ability is third behind skill and mental fortitude.

[Justanotherfacet]

I'd say skill, the desire to win and physical ability all are pretty paramount... and when you get to the peak of the pack, skill is pretty much constant - its the physical capabilities which will determine the outcome. (IMO) And Lan, though he probably would have scrubbed the floor with our newcomers 10 years ago is now on a slippery slope

[Finnssss22]

I'm just going to address the nutrition/not having the same kind of medical knowledge that athlete's have today....THEY DON'T NEED IT! They have the one power.

My god, how many top athlete's could play well into their 50's if their injuries could be healed completely and prolly even better then it was before? The ability to eliminate knee injuries/wear alone would be staggering in prolonging an athlete's career.

[Justanotherfacet]

@Finnssss Yeah i was thinking about that when i was wondering about Lan/Age problems...

 

But came to the conclusion that although healing will remove gaping wounds, the progressive degeneration of joints, and organs as well as of the brain would not be corrected since they aren't injury's as such. Plus my interpretation of healing in Randland is that they cant heal neurological problems or organ failure due to genetic or progressive degenerative causes. Thus aging is still a factor.

 

I'd love to be able to ask BS or someone about this... Hahaha I guess its professional curiosity =P

[mbuehner]

We should also consider that a shocking amount of martial arts demonstrations are a work. There is a huge incentive to have the masters demonstrate quasi super-human feats. Rubber meets the road in things life UFC, where martial arts masters are (or were, before they wised up and learned to stay away) routinely choked out or have their brains beaten in. Experience counts for something, and probably even more in the genuine chaos of real combat, but in a situation so controlled as a bout or a duel, quickness and power have huge advantages. No 80 year old man is going to defeat another well trained warrior in his prime. I'll believe it when somebody puts a few million dollars in a purse.

[USURP888]

We should also consider that a shocking amount of martial arts demonstrations are a work. There is a huge incentive to have the masters demonstrate quasi super-human feats. Rubber meets the road in things life UFC, where martial arts masters are (or were, before they wised up and learned to stay away) routinely choked out or have their brains beaten in. Experience counts for something, and probably even more in the genuine chaos of real combat, but in a situation so controlled as a bout or a duel, quickness and power have huge advantages. No 80 year old man is going to defeat another well trained warrior in his prime. I'll believe it when somebody puts a few million dollars in a purse.

 

 

I agree that in a game like the UFC an old man will not win. But real life combat is different, there are no rules. Can you imagine a Jiu-jitsu expert trying to put a navy seal to the ground? do you think that navy seal would not gouge out that jiu-jitsu guy's eyes, bite his nose off, press his thumb on his throat? Martial arts in cage combat survive because there are rules that protect them from harm so they can make the game more exciting.

 

We shouldn't judge Lan like we judge a UFC fighter but a real life swordsman like the samurai of old. Musashi and Saito are two samurais that were never defeated. That means they survived up to their old age because of their skill.

[Elgee]

@Finnssss Yeah i was thinking about that when i was wondering about Lan/Age problems...

 

But came to the conclusion that although healing will remove gaping wounds, the progressive degeneration of joints, and organs as well as of the brain would not be corrected since they aren't injury's as such. Plus my interpretation of healing in Randland is that they cant heal neurological problems or organ failure due to genetic or progressive degenerative causes. Thus aging is still a factor.

 

I'd love to be able to ask BS or someone about this... Hahaha I guess its professional curiosity =P

 

The Healing done in the Age of Legends and now by Nynaeve, pin points specific problems. Ie if you break a leg, they would Heal ONLY that break - everything else would remain untouched. The Healing done in present Randland time, "heals all". One of the boffins might be able to point to the exact quote where the old guy Asha'man was Healing Rand after his run in with Padan Fain. I think that might have been a tantalizing hint that the "simple, battle-field Healing" so maligned by the Forsaken (and Nynaeve) reaches down to a cellular level, which would of course include fixing the damage caused by the illness known as aging.

 

Now think about it - how many times has Lan been Healed over his 50 odd years? Obviously the aging process would start right back up again, but if the above theory is correct, then he would certainly not have aged to the same biological age as any 50 odd year old in our time.

[Justanotherfacet]

Hahahah the Samurai dual and combat style is shackled by a culture of honor, respect and was often a stylistic battle to finish the fight in one stroke!

 

Imagine a Samurai had to fight say a viking, or a roman, a spartan (hrroo raah!) The stylistic and honor niceties shown would get them killed very quickly against a dude who doesn't give a shit if he has to kick you in the balls or throw sand in your eyes. Its just like Navy seal vs ju jitzu dude - one is playing by rules, the other isnt.

 

PLEASE NOTE I'm not saying Samurai were not INCREDIBLE swordsman and i have nothing but respect and admiration for them. But their fighting style was developed in a culture of respect and honor and so is not designed to deal with howling barbarians.

 

In regards to Musashi and Saito - where would the honor be in fighting an old old man?

 

Plus the samurai were nobility, and we've all seen what the nobility are like in WoT =P

 

As for Navy Seal vs Ju Jitzu - The problem here is again you have a martial artist trained in one discipline. How about a guy who has done Mui Thai, BJJ and kick boxes in his spare time? Heck Navy Seals other other elite armed forces are commonly trained in a variety of martial arts. Plus do you think by training in one martial arts that will put you at a disadvantage?

[Justanotherfacet]

Boy we get off topic quickly in my threads... rofl