Could things go against the Pattern at the end?

[Awakened]

Fain is said to have sidestepped the pattern. He is a wild card who is gunning for Rand. Now at the end of this series it is supposed to go either one of two ways. Either the Dark One wins and everything is unmade or the Pattern wins and everything is reset for yet another Last Battle. Could Fain possibly put an end to this? Could neither the Pattern nor the Dark One win at the end of Tarmon Gaiden but instead, because Fain steps in and mucks everything up, we get an unwritten future at the end of this book and the possibility for the world to evolve without another Collapse and Last Battle being the inevitable future of the world? Or is even Fain just a puppet in the Pattern?

[mb]

The planned Outriggers seem to indicate that the Pattern would still exist after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Where was it said that Fain sidestepped the Pattern?

[herid]

Fain is said to have sidestepped the pattern. He is a wild card who is gunning for Rand. Now at the end of this series it is supposed to go either one of two ways. Either the Dark One wins and everything is unmade or the Pattern wins and everything is reset for yet another Last Battle. Could Fain possibly put an end to this? Could neither the Pattern nor the Dark One win at the end of Tarmon Gaiden but instead, because Fain steps in and mucks everything up, we get an unwritten future at the end of this book and the possibility for the world to evolve without another Collapse and Last Battle being the inevitable future of the world? Or is even Fain just a puppet in the Pattern?

In principle, yes, this could happen and not only because of Fain but also because the DO himself will presumably take an active part in the proceedings and he is outside of Pattern's influence. Of course we as readers know that the DO will lose one way or the other (RJ said so) but what exactly will happen is very much unclear. And yes, Fain is playing by his own rules and is not obeying the Pattern so he can be a wild card too. But I only two possible roles for him, really. He could try to kill Rand and the DO and fail at one or the other and be killed himself. Or he could possibly kill the DO and take his place or merge with the DO and make a stronger and more dangerous DO for the future. The latter looks pretty unlikely but I would not rule it out. But the Pattern at least will definitely continue. There are too many indications of that in the books (various visions and foretellings about post LB world etc).

[Awakened]

What I would like to see is Fain becoming the seal that will shut the Dark One away from the Pattern forever.

[Justanotherfacet]

What I would like to see is Fain becoming the seal that will shut the Dark One away from the Pattern forever.

 

Yeah thats my prediction - I suspect that he, as a type of evil was originally a part of the DO but was separated somehow thus causing an imbalance in the nature of evil/the DO - which kicked off the whole "RAWR IMA KILL DA WORLD!@!1" from shaitan.

[Stitch]

Why does everyone always think that the Dark One (or satan or whatever) is the SOURCE of all evil? Isn't it possible for people to just be scumbags without trying to find something to blame other than the scum themselves?

 

Its possible that Fain might be an entirely new element, but is he unique in that respect? Have there been other entites in the past ages that have been similar if different? (indeed perhaps it was the use of beings such as fain in sealing the dark one that caused it to become more aggressive or destructive)

 

This is important because we are told that this is the very last time that the battle will be fought, that this attempt to breakfree will be the last of its type - either a complete success by the DO or a complete failure that will ensure it can NEVER attempt it again. If Fain IS unique however, it is a cause for either celebration or mourning; for in either case Fain represents a potential cause of divergence from the usual turning of the wheel in that the dark one has only ever been sealed (and supposedly COULD only be sealed), which means that there is the possibility that Fain represents a final resolution - either in the DO's favour or else in finding a way to permanently neutralise the threat of the DO.

 

Otherwise we are going to be assuming that Rand and co are going to be able to surpass anyone who has ever attempted to oppose the dark one breaking free; that include those in the AoL as well as many other ages; these are people who were exceptional enough to be able to seal the dark one in the first place - however we are going to assume that our protagonists are supposedly indefinitely better? If this IS the last battle, then that means there must be something that has never occurred in the turnings of the wheel and the passing of ages; to assume that rand and co can come up with an idea which has never occurred to any of the most capable of minds to have ever existed?

 

What is it that enables this to be the last battle? If Fain is indeed a new type of entity, then perhaps there is such an element.

[Demon_AS]

I've seen a lot of comparison between the Hindu Gods and the books, but I wonder if Fain might not be "Vishnu" (preserver) in a certain sense.

 

If we assume Rand and his friends are the Creator, and the Dark One is the destroyer - maybe Fain makes up the middle bit, as he hates everyone and everything equally lol.

 

Probably a silly idea, but it made me laugh.

[anotherfingolfin]

Ugh, I can't seem to shake that Matrix feeling outta my head. Fain is Agent Smith. The Machines Dark and Neo Rand will team up to counter him. Heh, seriously though, I can't see him doing anything to effect the overall picture, unless it's a la Gollum in LotR.

 

I've seen a lot of comparison between the Hindu Gods and the books, but I wonder if Fain might not be "Vishnu" (preserver) in a certain sense.

 

If we assume Rand and his friends are the Creator, and the Dark One is the destroyer - maybe Fain makes up the middle bit, as he hates everyone and everything equally lol.

 

Probably a silly idea, but it made me laugh.

 

Uh no. He is most unlike Vishnu, in any of the legends attributed to Vishnu or his various avatars. He hasn't preserved anything, anyway. 'Preserver' when attributed to the Hindu trinity implies caretaker- the Creator and Destroyer don't have much relative active interest/involvement in the period of Existence between creation and destruction.

Equating the Dark One to Shiva the Destroyer is also innacurate, as he is not evil in any way. The Destruction is sort of like end-of-days, except it happens when there is no hope left for the world, so the trash is cleared for the cycle of ages to start anew.

[WhiskyJack]

I've seen a lot of comparison between the Hindu Gods and the books, but I wonder if Fain might not be "Vishnu" (preserver) in a certain sense.

 

If we assume Rand and his friends are the Creator, and the Dark One is the destroyer - maybe Fain makes up the middle bit, as he hates everyone and everything equally lol.

 

Probably a silly idea, but it made me laugh.

 

 

Vishnu actively "preserves". Fain is a murdering lunatic. Shiva doesn't represent chaos like DO. It actually represents the end of chaos. Creator(Brahma) is least important in Hinduism. Here it's just the opposite.

[nojnomad]

The matrix. That was a great movie. They should have made a couple of sequels to that thing. Oh well.

 

Edited to fix spelling

Oh and don't tell me there were sequels ( I know) they were just unworth of the name and should forever be ignored.

[Finnssss22]

What I would like to see is Fain becoming the seal that will shut the Dark One away from the Pattern forever.

 

That is one theory, that Rand and co. will use Fain as a buffer to avoid another backlash to Saidin and Saidar. RJ confirmed a long time ago that Saidar would of been tainted as well if it was used.

This is of course assuming that LTT's plan was/is the best way to seal the DO away in the first place which many do not.

 

 

 

As for Fain himself and the pattern, take this how you will....

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

 

Personally, I believe first off, that Bornhald will come clean to Perrin over the true deaths of his family. Fain will launch himself at Rand but Perrin will be there to save him (for the second time) and he will exact justice on Fain.

[Gordar]

The question is what would happen to the pattern if Fain stepped in. Would it simply try to correct itself in the next age or would it be torn apart?

 

If it simply tries to correct itself, then we'd get an age we've never seen before, but if the pattern is torn apart the Do would win and it'd mean the end of the world. I doubt Fain wants that.

[herid]

What I would like to see is Fain becoming the seal that will shut the Dark One away from the Pattern forever.

 

That is one theory, that Rand and co. will use Fain as a buffer to avoid another backlash to Saidin and Saidar.

Yes, this is a popular theory and I believe in it. I'm not sure about Fain surviving the experience though. That seems unlikely to me but who knows, maybe he will. Fain and his power has already been used twice in a similar fashion - during the cleansing of saidin and when Flinn healed Rand.

Also, the prophecies say that Rand's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow. I think that the meaning might be literal here. Thus far Rand's blood showed no magic properties but it could be that the blood from the wound in his side given by Fain's dagger will be used as a buffer when sealing the Bore.

[Finnssss22]

What I would like to see is Fain becoming the seal that will shut the Dark One away from the Pattern forever.

 

That is one theory, that Rand and co. will use Fain as a buffer to avoid another backlash to Saidin and Saidar.

Yes, this is a popular theory and I believe in it. I'm not sure about Fain surviving the experience though. That seems unlikely to me but who knows, maybe he will. Fain and his power has already been used twice in a similar fashion - during the cleansing of saidin and when Flinn healed Rand.

Also, the prophecies say that Rand's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow. I think that the meaning might be literal here. Thus far Rand's blood showed no magic properties but it could be that the blood from the wound in his side given by Fain's dagger will be used as a buffer when sealing the Bore.

 

 

 

Again though, that's still assuming what LTT did was the right thing to do. We know for a fact that what he did was never supposed to be permanent solution, only a patch to seal a leak as it were. They knew that going in and according to Latra Posae, was the more dangerous of the plans brought forth.

Her plan was to use the Choedan Kal to detroy the DO's forces and put a barrier up around Shayol Ghul to give them time to figure out how to deal with it all safely.

Even after the manufacturing sites of the Choedan Kal and the Access keys were attacked by Be'lal, Sammael and Demandred and lost, Latra Posae still didn't think LTT's plan was safe.

 

Now we are talking about making the the DO's prison whole again. I don't know about you but it sounds like something completely different than what LTT did or even what Latra Posae proposed, maybe it's just me though.

 

Then again, maybe Fain and the SL taint is the missing piece. I'm definitely not going to shoot down the theory completely at this point.

[Demon_AS]

I've seen a lot of comparison between the Hindu Gods and the books, but I wonder if Fain might not be "Vishnu" (preserver) in a certain sense.

 

If we assume Rand and his friends are the Creator, and the Dark One is the destroyer - maybe Fain makes up the middle bit, as he hates everyone and everything equally lol.

 

Probably a silly idea, but it made me laugh.

 

 

Vishnu actively "preserves". Fain is a murdering lunatic. Shiva doesn't represent chaos like DO. It actually represents the end of chaos. Creator(Brahma) is least important in Hinduism. Here it's just the opposite.

Hahaha, I knew it was a silly idea to compare Fain to the preserver.

 

But the gist of my point remains - Fain hates both Rand and the DO almost equally. That surely is significant, and will be significant for Tarmon Gai'don :D.

[Puny]

Why does everyone always think that the Dark One (or satan or whatever) is the SOURCE of all evil? Isn't it possible for people to just be scumbags without trying to find something to blame other than the scum themselves?

 

Its possible that Fain might be an entirely new element, but is he unique in that respect? Have there been other entites in the past ages that have been similar if different? (indeed perhaps it was the use of beings such as fain in sealing the dark one that caused it to become more aggressive or destructive)

 

This is important because we are told that this is the very last time that the battle will be fought, that this attempt to breakfree will be the last of its type - either a complete success by the DO or a complete failure that will ensure it can NEVER attempt it again. If Fain IS unique however, it is a cause for either celebration or mourning; for in either case Fain represents a potential cause of divergence from the usual turning of the wheel in that the dark one has only ever been sealed (and supposedly COULD only be sealed), which means that there is the possibility that Fain represents a final resolution - either in the DO's favour or else in finding a way to permanently neutralise the threat of the DO.

 

Otherwise we are going to be assuming that Rand and co are going to be able to surpass anyone who has ever attempted to oppose the dark one breaking free; that include those in the AoL as well as many other ages; these are people who were exceptional enough to be able to seal the dark one in the first place - however we are going to assume that our protagonists are supposedly indefinitely better? If this IS the last battle, then that means there must be something that has never occurred in the turnings of the wheel and the passing of ages; to assume that rand and co can come up with an idea which has never occurred to any of the most capable of minds to have ever existed?

 

What is it that enables this to be the last battle? If Fain is indeed a new type of entity, then perhaps there is such an element.

 

Sigh... I always miss the important parts. Im at the end of CoS of my reread so maybe this is in the later books or I´ve just forgotten about it... but is this really the last LAST battle? (Makes me feel like when I saw the last episode ever of the Pretender, and couldn´t believe for a week that it WAS the las ever, lol)

If the DO wins the world is fcuked and if the Creator wins then there will be Bye Bye Dark One and eternal bliss? How is that even possible in a world that is supposed to be about balance? Then I´d rather hope for the circular wheel to be crushed, the snake strangled and time to be linear...

[Awakened]

 

This is important because we are told that this is the very last time that the battle will be fought, that this attempt to breakfree will be the last of its type - either a complete success by the DO or a complete failure that will ensure it can NEVER attempt it again.

 

Wait, where were we told this? In the Wheel of Time there are neither beginnings nor endings. The Wheel simply resets the Pattern and sets it up for a new return of the Dark One.

[herid]

 

This is important because we are told that this is the very last time that the battle will be fought, that this attempt to breakfree will be the last of its type - either a complete success by the DO or a complete failure that will ensure it can NEVER attempt it again.

 

Wait, where were we told this? In the Wheel of Time there are neither beginnings nor endings. The Wheel simply resets the Pattern and sets it up for a new return of the Dark One.

you are right. we are never told anything of the sort. if anything we are told the opposite and quite a few times too. the quote you yourself gave about the Wheel of time having neither beginning nor ending is one.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

For some clue to Fain's sidestepping of the pattern, I look to what the Finns said to Mat about not going to Rhuidean, in regards to sidestepping and avoiding the winds (or threads? I don't remember, it's been a while..) of fate. Fain's thread is connected to the Pattern, but the results of his actions are outside the pattern because he has 'avoided the winds of fate', and for me that is his decision to follow Team al'Thor into Shadar Logoth.

[Awakened]

 

This is important because we are told that this is the very last time that the battle will be fought, that this attempt to breakfree will be the last of its type - either a complete success by the DO or a complete failure that will ensure it can NEVER attempt it again.

 

Wait, where were we told this? In the Wheel of Time there are neither beginnings nor endings. The Wheel simply resets the Pattern and sets it up for a new return of the Dark One.

you are right. we are never told anything of the sort. if anything we are told the opposite and quite a few times too. the quote you yourself gave about the Wheel of time having neither beginning nor ending is one.

 

 

But Fain is a beginning. In the Wheel of Time there is supposed to be nothing new, but Fain is new. He could be the one who frees everybody.

[herid]

 

This is important because we are told that this is the very last time that the battle will be fought, that this attempt to breakfree will be the last of its type - either a complete success by the DO or a complete failure that will ensure it can NEVER attempt it again.

 

Wait, where were we told this? In the Wheel of Time there are neither beginnings nor endings. The Wheel simply resets the Pattern and sets it up for a new return of the Dark One.

you are right. we are never told anything of the sort. if anything we are told the opposite and quite a few times too. the quote you yourself gave about the Wheel of time having neither beginning nor ending is one.

 

 

But Fain is a beginning. In the Wheel of Time there is supposed to be nothing new,

that's not how it works.

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

 

- I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.

so the Wheel does allow for changes on every turning.

 

but Fain is new. He could be the one who frees everybody.

frees everybody from what? yes, Fain is new and he might mess things up quite a bit (he might even kill the DO and take his place) but I don't see him changing the circular nature of time as that would mean breaking of the Pattern and we know that this won't happen.

[Hopebringer]

I like the thought of Fain being used as the DO seal.

 

It reminds me strongly of the German pen & paper system The Dark Eye, where the evil Nameless God is "nailed" against the entrance to the demon's sphere - protecting the planes of existence from the Archdemons and the Demon Emperorer. As the Dark Eye is heavily based on real world mythologies, it seems possible that RJ used those source myths as a source as he has done almost everywhere in his books.