Some Real Tragedy At Last

[Justanotherfacet]

Whos gonna die.... mmmm i have no lust for death in this series, i quite like them all...

 

BUT i think i can safely assume that Min is completely f*cked. She is deader than dead lol.

 

Nynaeve is probs a gonner too, probs in the middle of helping Rand do his sealing trick and someone will have to tag in... I can imagine reading it now "There was a flash of silver in the corner of her vision and then a sudden sharp sensation of iciness in her throat cut through the disconnecting warmth of sadar. Nynaeve tried to inhale to exclaim her shock, but strangely, fluid filled her lungs instead and as she gurgled helplessly Rand turned at the sound, his eyes widening in disbelief as Nynaeve staggered one step, two, then dropped to the blood soaked sand, clutching at the jagged shard of steel jutting from her throat as her lifes blood pooled, fanning about her head" now THATS excitement hahahah Good Night Nyn!

- i never liked her much...

 

Lan will survive as he is a tragic hero, weeping over Nyn

Moirane and Thom are probs done with.

Avi + Elayne are safe probs as are Perrin/Faile

Gawyn is probs a gonner protecting Ege against Seanchan or some rubbish like that - redeeming point

Sanche is probs gone... i doubt she even makes it to the last battle

Mat i suspect will die saving Tuon, after all making him rule would be cruel.

Birgette has to go, unfortunately

Hurin will probs die, making Rand all nostalgic nd stuff but he doesnt matter

Galad will stay alive cos there are plenty of people dying already and it would be scary to make Elayne an only child.

[Puny]

 

Galad will stay alive cos there are plenty of people dying already and it would be scary to make Elayne an only child.

 

That made me laugh so hard for some reason...

Anyways, I do think everyone has a good point. I do understand that one theme is about duty, and doing what you must but I disagree that death is easy. On the contrary, dying for anything is really hard, most people fight for life, so having one die for something would be ...nice, lol.

[Ferdawoon]

Fair enough. Now that the series is largely concluded I don't think there is much to gain by a major character dying unless it were to occur right at the start of AMoL (other than Rand who I am expecting to die - but we all know he will come back so it won't make much impact). For maximum effect I would have had a major character die early in the series so the rest of the series you would be worried that any of your other favourite major characters could die unexpectedly.

The problem is, you could still come here and say the exact same thing. "So, one character died in the first book but nothing have happened in the last 10 books, not like it really gave any impression that anyone important could die!"

There are some people who have sacrificed themselves to help the Light. I mean, Verin? Someone we have known for quite some time. Moiraine, even though we pretty quickly got the impression that she might not be dead, even if we never knew if that was true or not (and then she came and did a Gandalf on us). Noal, who helped rescue Moiraine. There is Ingtar who sacrifice himself to help Rand and company to escape after recovering the Horn of Valere from High Lord Turak. These were just the ones that came to my mind so there are probably many, many more. You just happen to forget about them. Just as no one remember Lord Ned Stark anymore in aSoIaF even after just one book, now think 10 books where this happen..

Then not forgetting the big massacer at Dumai Wells and other similar battles.

 

There are people dying left and right in the WoT books, but we have just known them for a couple of chapters, but we have been given a name. There are the Aes Sedai who died protecting Rand and Nynaeve during the cleansing of Saidin. There are the Aes Sedai that Rand sever after breaking free from his captivity in the box. There is that heartbreaking moment when he try to bring the dead girl to life in Tear.

 

So, as I said, there are more, but you seem to just happen to forget about them. Just as you forget about a lot of other characters in other series who die. Re-read, and consider how many of the people that we get to know that have died. Both on the Light and the Dark side.

[sandoz12]

Fair enough. Now that the series is largely concluded I don't think there is much to gain by a major character dying unless it were to occur right at the start of AMoL (other than Rand who I am expecting to die - but we all know he will come back so it won't make much impact). For maximum effect I would have had a major character die early in the series so the rest of the series you would be worried that any of your other favourite major characters could die unexpectedly.

The problem is, you could still come here and say the exact same thing. "So, one character died in the first book but nothing have happened in the last 10 books, not like it really gave any impression that anyone important could die!"

There are some people who have sacrificed themselves to help the Light. I mean, Verin? Someone we have known for quite some time. Moiraine, even though we pretty quickly got the impression that she might not be dead, even if we never knew if that was true or not (and then she came and did a Gandalf on us). Noal, who helped rescue Moiraine. There is Ingtar who sacrifice himself to help Rand and company to escape after recovering the Horn of Valere from High Lord Turak. These were just the ones that came to my mind so there are probably many, many more. You just happen to forget about them. Just as no one remember Lord Ned Stark anymore in aSoIaF even after just one book, now think 10 books where this happen..

Then not forgetting the big massacer at Dumai Wells and other similar battles.

 

There are people dying left and right in the WoT books, but we have just known them for a couple of chapters, but we have been given a name. There are the Aes Sedai who died protecting Rand and Nynaeve during the cleansing of Saidin. There are the Aes Sedai that Rand sever after breaking free from his captivity in the box. There is that heartbreaking moment when he try to bring the dead girl to life in Tear.

 

So, as I said, there are more, but you seem to just happen to forget about them. Just as you forget about a lot of other characters in other series who die. Re-read, and consider how many of the people that we get to know that have died. Both on the Light and the Dark side.

Yes but of these the only major character was Moiraine and as you pointed out hers wasn't really a death as we knew she would come back.

 

But anyway as I have said it's been a great series and as you (and others) have pointed out there have been plenty of emotional scenes involving the major characters without them dying. All I was trying to say was that for my own subjective taste I would have like a major character or two to die earlier on in the series. I wasn't trying to say the series lacked emotion or was a bad series or that this was even a flaw in the series. I am sure there are plenty of people who are glad that no major characters have died - I was just stating my personal preference.

 

Also I (and possibly others in the same position) would really appreciate it if people could please try not to mention specific spoilers about the George Martin series, as I would like to read it but worry that it will be unintentionally ruined for me by reading DM forums. I'm happy for people to compare series or say events that occurred differently between the two series but if they could just avoid naming specific names, that way it won't be spoiled for myself and others.

[HighWiredSith]

I did not intend to spark a heated debate.

 

I still think it would be a tragedy in and of itself if all of the main characters live happily ever after. The very phrase in itself implies something more akin to a fairy tale then gritty, meaningful fantasy. And although LOTR did not sport a major character death the endings was wrought with tragedy, the death of an age, the passing of the ring bearers, the loss of the Shire for those who saved it. The deaths were metaphorical and yet they were very real, there was real, meaningful loss.

 

I've read a lot of fantasy over the past 20 years and there's something profoundly false in any epic where the good guys get off Scot free. If this world is truly worth saving then it's worth sacrificing for and so far, other then a few misguided sensibilities, longsuffering hopes for a simple life, and a hand and an eyeball, nothing truly has been lost or sacrificed. Each character has been richly rewarded with power and possessions, riches and titles, and love to the point where it drains all tension out of the plot. Even now, last battle looming, is there any real danger when we've supposedly been told by the author that they will all ride off into the sunset? To be honest, if I had heard or read RJ make that statement 8-9 books ago I would have stopped reading.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

pretty much everything you point to as tragic in LotR has already come to pass, or has been heavily foreshadowed, for the WOT.

 

personally, i don't look for grit in fantasy, but that's just me.

 

as always, the reading isn't mandatory. i'm assuming that you must like the books to keep reading them. i don't think i can assume you're not trying to spark debate. might just be a Talent .

 

anyway, it's a free world, and you're free to read them and dislike them at the same time. and you're free to stop reading them as you say you're tempted to do.

 

but they are what they are, and there's nothing gonna change them now. woulda, coulda, shoulda, doesn't matter. they're just about done.

 

you can always fan fic them closer to your liking.

[FarShainMael]

I'm beginning to wonder if all three ta'veren will die, and the 'riding off into the sunset' bit will happen in T'A'R.

 

Now I know what you're all going to say.. the Mat / Tuon outrigger novels.

 

But but but.. I'm wondering if those may have originally been intended to run alongside the main narrative. I think that, had RJ still been alive, the main tale would have developed much more slowly. A lot of us have complained at how rushed TGS and TOM have been - no disrespect to BS, that was more or less forced on him. If the story in those had been at the same pace as the earlier novels (well, perhaps not a couple of them!) the series might well have gone on for another ten books or so. There would have been enough time for Mat and Tuon to jaunt off to Seanchan and sort out the mess there, or whatever RJ had in mind. After all, we've already had Mat missing for most of a book after a house fell on him..

 

And I do know that RJ said the main action would not go to Seanchan, but I'm wondering whether that was because he was beginning to sense that he would not be around to write that particular arc.

 

Just a thought. I don't tend to follow the Q&A sessions (I think you should get enough info in the books to work out what's going on!) so I don't know if there's anything in there to give any clues.

[Puny]

If the story in those had been at the same pace as the earlier novels (well, perhaps not a couple of them!) the series might well have gone on for another ten books or so. There would have been enough time for Mat and Tuon to jaunt off to Seanchan and sort out the mess there, or whatever RJ had in mind.

 

Mother´s milk in a cup! I hope not. Ten more books would have been awful. I just wished maybe one more book before Amol so everything didn´t feel so rushed but other then that... I want to read the end! It´s time for closure.

[Demon_AS]

My view on who should or should not die is pretty broad, but I doubt Mat or Perrin are heading for the axe. Rand is the one we know who's definitely going to be sacrificed in a Biblical way to save the world - "To live, you must die," the Aelfinn said. And even then, nobody is sure if this is going to be a permanent condition. But either way, the other two are the second most important characters in the book... a grim story it would be if they died. Sort of like killing off Samwise Gamgee in The Lord of the Rings - it just isn't supposed to happen.

 

I think most of the main cast will survive, and if anyone is going to die, my money is on Lan. Not Nynaeve, who still has some miraculous Healing to learn - a final feather in her cap already full of feathers. I doubt madness Healing is the pinnacle for her.

 

I don't think Moiraine and Thom are going to die, either - it's a pretty grim thought that she should die after all the effort and time it took to save her from death. And I, for one, feel Thom deserves a little more luck with the ladies.

[Justanotherfacet]

I think most of the main cast will survive, and if anyone is going to die, my money is on Lan. Not Nynaeve, who still has some miraculous Healing to learn - a final feather in her cap already full of feathers. I doubt madness Healing is the pinnacle for her.

 

I don't think Moiraine and Thom are going to die, either - it's a pretty grim thought that she should die after all the effort and time it took to save her from death. And I, for one, feel Thom deserves a little more luck with the ladies.

 

About Nyn- People did just fine without her special healing skills for a long time before she was on the scene. She is un-necessary. The only thing i can see her being useful for in the future is perhaps healing Taims Black Tower cronies of their madness... then that bitch is getting choked out XD I cant stand Nyn lol

 

And as for Thom... he's been the lover of a Queen, i think he's done juuust fine

[Alternate34]

I did not intend to spark a heated debate.

 

I still think it would be a tragedy in and of itself if all of the main characters live happily ever after. The very phrase in itself implies something more akin to a fairy tale then gritty, meaningful fantasy. And although LOTR did not sport a major character death the endings was wrought with tragedy, the death of an age, the passing of the ring bearers, the loss of the Shire for those who saved it. The deaths were metaphorical and yet they were very real, there was real, meaningful loss.

 

I've read a lot of fantasy over the past 20 years and there's something profoundly false in any epic where the good guys get off Scot free. If this world is truly worth saving then it's worth sacrificing for and so far, other then a few misguided sensibilities, longsuffering hopes for a simple life, and a hand and an eyeball, nothing truly has been lost or sacrificed. Each character has been richly rewarded with power and possessions, riches and titles, and love to the point where it drains all tension out of the plot. Even now, last battle looming, is there any real danger when we've supposedly been told by the author that they will all ride off into the sunset? To be honest, if I had heard or read RJ make that statement 8-9 books ago I would have stopped reading.

 

I believe you are beyond convincing, but here goes.

 

First, there has been plenty of tragedy akin toe LOTR as others have pointed out. The series is about the death of an age, the Third Age, and has involved battles with an abundance of lives lost. Rand already lost the Two Rivers. It does not exist. He has been tortured and maimed, mistrustful of all. Perrin has committed acts he thought himself incapable of in pursuit of his wife. Verin died after a lifetime of performing heinous acts, doing things that others certainly wouldn't do, but eventually being vindicated. Her reward was death. Woohoo.

 

This is where you quibble about the definition of loss and sacrifice and where I believe you are beyond convincing. You think none of the above is meaningful. What is meaningful then?

[Mr Ares]

I'm beginning to wonder if all three ta'veren will die, and the 'riding off into the sunset' bit will happen in T'A'R.

 

Now I know what you're all going to say.. the Mat / Tuon outrigger novels.

 

But but but.. I'm wondering if those may have originally been intended to run alongside the main narrative.

Given that when he mentioned his plans for the outriggers, he specified a timeframe ten years after TG, I'd say it's rather doubtful.

[JBGRAY23]

We already had a tragic ending....it was when the Age of Legends ended. Now imagine if the books we've come to know and love over the course of 20 years or so that it ended that way. With the main character so many love ends up killing everyone due to his insanity, is confronted by the main antagonist who is still alive and cures him of his sanity, then it ends with him blowing up everything around him in a final moment of agony and pain. The remaining characters are killed off or driven insane to cause more destruction and death.

 

I've noticed that a lot of people think that some of the Forsaken are "cool" and want to see them do "awesome" things (i.e. what Demandreds plans are in the next book and what Landfear and Moridin's places are to be). If we had gotten up close and personal with them during their peak days in the Age of Legends, their atrocities would be akin (and worse, imho) to what Emperor Jagang's Imperial Order inflicted on their opposition(sorry, had to inject the hated sword of truth series into the discussion). Torturing entire cities for the sake of amusement, feeding entire cities of men, women, and children to Trollocs(thats what the "awesome" and "cool" Demandred did), breeding women with Trollocs, and the list goes on. Perhaps it was best that this wasn't written in detail in the series.

 

The Lightsiders are due for a happy ending.

[sora114]

Whos gonna die.... mmmm i have no lust for death in this series, i quite like them all... BUT i think i can safely assume that Min is completely f*cked. She is deader than dead lol. Nynaeve is probs a gonner too, probs in the middle of helping Rand do his sealing trick and someone will have to tag in... I can imagine reading it now "There was a flash of silver in the corner of her vision and then a sudden sharp sensation of iciness in her throat cut through the disconnecting warmth of sadar. Nynaeve tried to inhale to exclaim her shock, but strangely, fluid filled her lungs instead and as she gurgled helplessly Rand turned at the sound, his eyes widening in disbelief as Nynaeve staggered one step, two, then dropped to the blood soaked sand, clutching at the jagged shard of steel jutting from her throat as her lifes blood pooled, fanning about her head" now THATS excitement hahahah Good Night Nyn! - i never liked her much...Lan will survive as he is a tragic hero, weeping over Nyn Moirane and Thom are probs done with. Avi + Elayne are safe probs as are Perrin/Faile Gawyn is probs a gonner protecting Ege against Seanchan or some rubbish like that - redeeming pointSanche is probs gone... i doubt she even makes it to the last battleMat i suspect will die saving Tuon, after all making him rule would be cruel.Birgette has to go, unfortunatelyHurin will probs die, making Rand all nostalgic nd stuff but he doesnt matterGalad will stay alive cos there are plenty of people dying already and it would be scary to make Elayne an only child.

No. I will not allow this.

[FarShainMael]

I'm beginning to wonder if all three ta'veren will die, and the 'riding off into the sunset' bit will happen in T'A'R.

 

Now I know what you're all going to say.. the Mat / Tuon outrigger novels.

 

But but but.. I'm wondering if those may have originally been intended to run alongside the main narrative.

Given that when he mentioned his plans for the outriggers, he specified a timeframe ten years after TG, I'd say it's rather doubtful.

 

Drat!

 

[FarShainMael]

Whos gonna die.... mmmm i have no lust for death in this series, i quite like them all... BUT i think i can safely assume that Min is completely f*cked. She is deader than dead lol. Nynaeve is probs a gonner too, probs in the middle of helping Rand do his sealing trick and someone will have to tag in... I can imagine reading it now "There was a flash of silver in the corner of her vision and then a sudden sharp sensation of iciness in her throat cut through the disconnecting warmth of sadar. Nynaeve tried to inhale to exclaim her shock, but strangely, fluid filled her lungs instead and as she gurgled helplessly Rand turned at the sound, his eyes widening in disbelief as Nynaeve staggered one step, two, then dropped to the blood soaked sand, clutching at the jagged shard of steel jutting from her throat as her lifes blood pooled, fanning about her head" now THATS excitement hahahah Good Night Nyn! - i never liked her much...Lan will survive as he is a tragic hero, weeping over Nyn Moirane and Thom are probs done with. Avi + Elayne are safe probs as are Perrin/Faile Gawyn is probs a gonner protecting Ege against Seanchan or some rubbish like that - redeeming pointSanche is probs gone... i doubt she even makes it to the last battleMat i suspect will die saving Tuon, after all making him rule would be cruel.Birgette has to go, unfortunatelyHurin will probs die, making Rand all nostalgic nd stuff but he doesnt matterGalad will stay alive cos there are plenty of people dying already and it would be scary to make Elayne an only child.

No. I will not allow this.

 

I don't want to worry you.. but LTT added 'Elmindreda Farshaw' to Rand's 'list' in TGS..

[sleepinghour]

I don't want to worry you.. but LTT added 'Elmindreda Farshaw' to Rand's 'list' in TGS..

And Melaine decided in LoC to name her unborn twins after Min and Egwene. I don't want either to die (not even Egwene), but it would be ironic if they both died just before Melaine's twins were born. I don't think she's given birth yet.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I personally don't want any major characters to die, because the fragility and shortness of our lives is one thing I'm hoping to find some refuge from in the fantasy books.

 

I definitely agree with the point about Starks in aSoIaF somebody made in this thread quite a long time ago.(spoiler by the way).

It is one thing to write a story about a world where sudden death lurks at every corner, and something quite different to kill especially those characters the reader is likely to identify with the most (thankfully, even in aSoIaF it is not an absolute rule)

 

As to "real tragedy" in WOT, there were at quite a few moments:

- Verin's death

- Perrin's family

- Aviendha's visions. If it actually came to pass, I think it would be more Tragedy than anybody bargained for!

-for me, also the deaths of Ingtar and Noal and Mat loosing an eye were quite tragic (also Siuan and Leanne loosing most of their power, maybe irreversibly). I have to say that maybe the depiction of these events in the books felt a little flat and rushed, but there was "tragedy" potential without a doubt.

[wolfqueen]

I wouldn't mind if the main three survive (though I think the series would have been better if one of them had died earlier - now there's no point) but I would like quite a few of the secondary characters to die. Would just be wrong for one side to win a major battle without any significant casualties.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing the dark one actually win just to surprise everyone including myself but I really don't think that is going to happen.

 

If a Tar'veren died, than the proficies wouldn't be able to be fullfilled. Thats the whole point of a Tar'veren, to fullfill them!!

[Sid]

Everyone with a part to play yet in AMoL can't have died until they play that part. I'm assuming this includes all of the major characters and the majority of the minor (people that show up more than just once or twice) ones still alive. I'm interested in seeing what some of those roles will be. Others simply have no reason why they would have been killed. I guess RJ didn't feel like going out of his way to pointlessly kill off random unimportant people.

[sandoz12]

I wouldn't mind if the main three survive (though I think the series would have been better if one of them had died earlier - now there's no point) but I would like quite a few of the secondary characters to die. Would just be wrong for one side to win a major battle without any significant casualties.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing the dark one actually win just to surprise everyone including myself but I really don't think that is going to happen.

 

If a Tar'veren died, than the proficies wouldn't be able to be fullfilled. Thats the whole point of a Tar'veren, to fullfill them!!

I thought ta'veren simply turned fate around them not that they were immortal till all prophecies were fulfilled. If ta'veren are basically immortal it kind of takes the fun out of things.

[wolfqueen]

I wouldn't mind if the main three survive (though I think the series would have been better if one of them had died earlier - now there's no point) but I would like quite a few of the secondary characters to die. Would just be wrong for one side to win a major battle without any significant casualties.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing the dark one actually win just to surprise everyone including myself but I really don't think that is going to happen.

 

If a Tar'veren died, than the proficies wouldn't be able to be fullfilled. Thats the whole point of a Tar'veren, to fullfill them!!

I thought ta'veren simply turned fate around them not that they were immortal till all prophecies were fulfilled. If ta'veren are basically immortal it kind of takes the fun out of things.

Nah, I'm not saying they're immortal, but just a you said, they must stay alive until the prophecies have been fullfilled

[threadnecromancer]

Does anyone believe or hope that the final volume will contain at least a moderate amount of real tragedy

 

As is if there hasn't been? So just to name one, a real tragedy other than something like the entire Amayar population committing mass suicide?

 

But was the death of a vast number of people whom many of the readers had never even heard of before really a tragedy? I did not really care about the Amayar (I do not think any Amayar characters were ever introduced) and so it did not effect me much at all. Contrast that with the death of Ingtar in the Great Hunt, which not only was a really great dramatic moment but also made me worry about the other major characters when they got in harms way, later I stopped being so invested in their struggles as I no longer felt that there was a serious chance that they would get killed.

[idiostock]

-for me, also the deaths of Ingtar and Noal and Mat loosing an eye were quite tragic (also Siuan and Leanne loosing most of their power, maybe irreversibly). I have to say that maybe the depiction of these events in the books felt a little flat and rushed, but there was "tragedy" potential without a doubt.

 

Agree, Ingtar was my favorite character in TGH.

[AshaShan]

I love a good tragedy, but the WOT has never featurted much in the way of it and changing that in the final book would be a bad idea IMO. It would be just too drastic a shift in tone to go from "nobody noteworthy dies" to "bloodbath". It all ends happily ever after, I expect. Best to resign ourselves to it.