Taim and Others

[rochaid]

i cannot prove she was there,but that does not eliminate her as a suspect,as there is no proof that she was not there.

 

using the same logic as you unless you have proof that bashere knew jasin natael was asmodean he can not be a suspect.

 

so graendal remains a suspect

[Thor]

Um, are we talking about Asmodean? If so, :shock:

[TheDiceAgain...]

She cannot be eliminated on the basis of lack of motive. She can, and that is what I've attempted to do, be eliminated on the basis of lack of opportunity. If she wasn't there she can't be a suspect.

 

Prove she was there and she becomes one.

 

What makes you think she had no opportunity? She can Travel and she's been there before so she would know the layout. And even if Rahvin's traps were set to detect anyone channelling withing Camelyn, not just any man, Rand ripped all of those to shreds when he blundered in like the proverbial bull in a china shop.

 

There's not enough evidence to prove that she was there for sure, but frankly there's also not enough textual evidence to say that anyone other than Asmo, Mat, Avi, Rand, Bashere and Renee Halfor are there at the time and that Taim is on his way.

 

So if you're argument is that you need hard textual evidence of location at the time of the murder to even suspect someone and can make no educated guesses based upon circumstance, motive and the capabilities of the individual in question, then frankly you'll never be able to make a guess...(I think it's called probable cause in the criminal justcie system)

[jkeaves]

Since this topic is about Taim, and Taim is generally understood to be a bad guy, I'm gonna throw out a very bizarre theory. It's likely been raised before, but here it goes. Taim is the DO's Dragon Reborn. Ok, before you unshoulder the spears, let me flush this out a bit more. The only real contextual bit I have to solidify this wacky theory is from tGH when we find there's a Dark Prophecy. Here's my take: Taim was going to be the pawn of the DO, fulfilling a similar prophecies so that the world would know the dragon is reborn. At the end, instead of the "dragon" defeating the DO, Taim turncoats and throws the fight towards the DO. Now, this hasn't happened yet because Rand lives and beat Taim to the prophecies that reveals the Dragon Reborn to the public. Ok. Start Flaming!

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think the DO needs any specific anti-dragon.

 

There had been a spate of false dragons recently. Logain was the third in 5 years. IF ( big if ) any of the false dragons had succeeded in garnering mass public support, then I think someone from the Dark would have attempted to suborn him.

 

Until that eventuality, I'm guessing that the most the Dark would have done is encourage him to continue what he was doing... probably via someone in the BA.

 

But, other than the meetings where we've seen him, Demandred has been entirely offstage for the whole series. He could have been doing anything, including trotting out one or more already recruited false dragons.

[Gidar]

I'm only on book 4 and there's so many names here I never have heard of..lol

[Bob T Dwarf]

rochaid -

 

I'm content to put my faith in what Robert Jordan actually wrote. You are entirely free to continue to put your faith in what you hope he meant because he didn't come right out and say, "Character X killed Asmodean."

[TheDiceAgain...]

The problem with the "Dark Prophecy" is that it wasn't really prophecy at all. It's just a rehashing of things that have already happened or are currently happening with a bit of an evil spin:

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

Lanfear is back and looking for Rand who she's transferred her twisted version of love to.

 

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blatant propaganda

 

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

 

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Yet more propaganda, trying to scare Rand into doing something stupid. Oddly enough, it eventually worked.

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

The origins of Slayer and the loosing of the Darkhounds

 

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The Watchers over the Waves were doing exactly that.

 

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

The Seanchan are about to attack Tarabon and Arad Doman and Almoth Plain.

 

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

More propaganda

 

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

This may be the only actual bit of prophecy, because it may refer to the return of the Seanchan in Ebou Dar after Rand and the Heroes throw them back at Falme.

 

Now the Great Lord comes.

 

So while the Dark may have a set of Prophecies, we really haven't seen any of them...

[Bob T Dwarf]

One final thought on the subject of logic:

 

"We know A, therefore B must be true" is a simplification of a philosophical concept. The complete form is:

 

1. If A, then B.

2. A.

3. Therefore B.

 

It's called a Modus Tollens. It requires two things in its used. Deductive validity--i.e. does A nessesitate B. and factual validity--do we know A.

 

Luckers' quote above is an example of modus ponens, not modus tollens.

 

The proper form of modus tollens is:

 

1. If A, then B. ( if A is true, then B is true )

2. Not A. ( A is either untrue or unknown )

3. Therefore, not B. ( B is either untrue or unknown )

 

Modus ponens affirms the independent variable: A IS true. We know A.

Modus tollens denies the independent variable: A is NOT true. We do NOT know A.

[rochaid]

rochaid -

 

I'm content to put my faith in what Robert Jordan actually wrote. You are entirely free to continue to put your faith in what you hope he meant because he didn't come right out and say, "Character X killed Asmodean."

 

i'm sorry but i don't know what that has got to do with anything.i'm also "content to put my faith in what Robert Jordan actually wrote."i never said other wise,all i said was that you cannot eliminate graendal as a suspect.i know he didn't say who killed him.where did i say it was definately greandal?no-one knows for sure who killed him,we just believe it was character such and such.i don't know what your response is meant to show me,but judging from it you seem to have completely mis-read my post,which you seem to do a bit to other dragommounters as well,before responding irrlevently to posts at least have the courtesy to read them proberly

[jkeaves]

The worst of it is that RJ is stoking the fires by saying some got the answer to "Who killed Asmodean" right. So now everyone with a half-@$$ theory could be the winner. At this point, RJ needs to come right out and say point blank who killed Asmodean so I can die a content man.

[Luckers]

Thats true Bob. Missed it completely.

 

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

Blatant propaganda

 

Perhaps. On the other hand the unstained tower bends knee... it doesn't say who the Shining Walls kneels to.

[Thor]

I don't think the DO needs any specific anti-dragon.

 

There had been a spate of false dragons recently. Logain was the third in 5 years. IF ( big if ) any of the false dragons had succeeded in garnering mass public support' date=' then I think someone from the Dark would have attempted to suborn him.

 

Until that eventuality, I'm guessing that the most the Dark would have done is encourage him to continue what he was doing... probably via someone in the BA.

 

But, other than the meetings where we've seen him, Demandred has been entirely offstage for the whole series. He could have been doing anything, including trotting out one or more already recruited false dragons.[/quote']

 

Ishamael (or his soul), is the anti-dragon.

[Luckers]

I agree with Bob here... RJ disdains such basic thematicism.

[Bob T Dwarf]

rochaid -

 

What part of - Graendal cannot be eliminated on the basis of lack of motive, but she can be eliminated on the basis of lack of opportunity - do you not understand?

 

Jordan tells us that someone killed Asmodean. Then, in the very beginning of the very next book, he tells us Graendal was elsewhere during that time.

 

When the author deliberately gives a character an alibi, you can be pretty sure that character is not your suspect. Until Jordan actually says that Graendal killed him, I'm unwilling to accuse him of being deliberately deceptive by giving her an alibi.

[Guest Majsju]

Jordan tells us that someone killed Asmodean. Then, in the very beginning of the very next book, he tells us Graendal was elsewhere during that time.

 

Again with the adding new content to the books that is not actually there? RJ has done no such thing as placing graendal on another location during the time of the murder.

[Bob T Dwarf]

"And Graendal says that Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord."

 

Those are Jordan's words. That is Graendal's alibi.

 

If you are so desperate for it to be only her that you feel free to constuct a massive chain of utterly unprovable speculation in order to make it so, when the author has explicity said she wasn't there, be my guest.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Do you have a schedule for the meeting? Or a POV showing how long Graendal waited? "Moghedien failed to meet Graendal" is certainly not the same as "Graendal could not have gone to Caemlyn". How long does it take to Travel? About half a second.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And so begins an almost infinite chain of "ifs" and "coulds".

 

This is a fantasy. Virtually anything you, or I, or anyone else might come up with "could" have happened.

 

When such is the case, it is wisest to rely on what the author tells us did happen. In this case the author explicitly has her doing someting other than killing Asmo. I'll hang my hat on that.

 

You are free to run as wild with your speculations as you desire in order to satisfy whatever inner need you have for it to be Graendal.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In this case the author explicitly has her doing someting other than killing Asmo.

 

Well, Bashere was talking to Rand. So the author explicitly has him doing something other than killing Asmo too. On the same page. Yet you do not disqualify him.

 

It would have taken exactly as long for Graendal to come to Caemlyn as it would have taken Bashere to take two steps.

 

And apparently Graendal didn't wait for Moghedien ALL day. She had to tell Demandred about the missed meeting sometime. Also, how did Demandred find out that Rahvin was dead? And Lanfear vanishing? From Graendal, perhaps? Which leads me to this:

 

And so begins an almost infinite chain of "ifs" and "coulds".

 

Every theory on who killed Asmodean contains "ifs" and "coulds", including yours (if you have one, I think I remember you saying that you don't, that you just consider Bashere a "suspect" or some such). The reason is simple enough: the author deliberately left it as a mystery.

[Guest Majsju]

Quote:

"And Graendal says that Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord."

 

 

Those are Jordan's words. That is Graendal's alibi.

 

If you are so desperate for it to be only her that you feel free to constuct a massive chain of utterly unprovable speculation in order to make it so, when the author has explicity said she wasn't there, be my guest.

 

Oh my. I have seen a lot of ridicilous arguements against Graendal, but I think this might top the list.

 

The murder could have been done in 10-15 minutes. Now, is a day longer than 10-15 minutes?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Except that he didn't. He has said repeatedly that he is flummoxed by how many people have failed to figure it out.

 

According to him it is trivially easy. All the clues are present in FOH. The killer should be, "intuitively obvious to a casual reader."

 

I contend that the thing that keeps it from being intuitively obvious to everybody is the inner need that so many folks have for it to have been " - insert name of favored killer here -".

 

Because everybody has a need for it to be someone specific, whomever that someone might be, ya'll go running off in eleventy-seven different directions concocting private fantasies about how "if only THIS, then THAT, and therefore it COULD SO be" - again insert name of favored killer here -.

 

Tailchasing. Nothing but an infinite round of tailchasing.

[Thor]

I still feel that Moiraine was the one who killed Asmodean.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There is also the fact that Jordan has stated that since so many people are having trouble figuring it out, he would plant a few hints in the follow-on books to help us all out.

 

I'd classify, "And Graendal says that Moghedien failed to meet her as they agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord.", as a pretty big hint that it aint her.

 

Ya'll are, of course, entirely free to interpret those words of the author in whatever way suits your particular fancy.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ya'll are, of course, entirely free to interpret those words of the author in whatever way suits your particular fancy.

 

As you are doing, with a secondhand (in the books) statement that doesn't, in fact, in any way hamper Graendal's ability to have done it.

 

In effect, you're contending that Graendal couldn't have done it, because since there was a scheduled meeting with Moghedien in her calendar, she curled up with a pint of Ben and Jerry's and waited. All day. Never stirring. Not going anywhere else. For the whole day.

 

That is as grand an assumption as they come.