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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

ToM Prologue


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So I just idly flicked through and re-read the scene atop the for tower between Keemlin and his papa.

 

I think, bizarely, that is the most I have been affected emotionally in the entire WoT series. I mean, he sends the other kid away, stays...today you are a man...

 

....*wipes a tear*

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An example of why the Borderlanders, almost alone among the peoples of Randland, do not suck.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Just to add another example, when Lan was told the young prince he intends to ride alone, the boy says (paraphrase) "good, Can I ride alone with you?"

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Indeed, go borderlanders! Too bad Tenobia is a Darkfriend. (yes, she is indeed, I say!)

 

One of my favorite scenes as well. For all the pro's and con's of Sanderson's writing, I think he has the ability to write much better emotional scenes.

 

It may be just because it is comming to an end and everything emotional is going down now, but I felt much more emotionally involved in the past two books. I mean, Rand on top of Dragonmount, Rand all through ToM, Perrin being awesome and such, the borderland prologue, lan's ToM sequence, Semirhage torture. All emotionally driven.

 

However, having said that, RJ did have some pretty damn good emotional stuff, Perrin's Two Rivers plot, A Cup of Sleep, trying to revive dead girl, etc..

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Indeed, go borderlanders! Too bad Tenobia is a Darkfriend. (yes, she is indeed, I say!)

 

One of my favorite scenes as well. For all the pro's and con's of Sanderson's writing, I think he has the ability to write much better emotional scenes.

 

It may be just because it is comming to an end and everything emotional is going down now, but I felt much more emotionally involved in the past two books. I mean, Rand on top of Dragonmount, Rand all through ToM, Perrin being awesome and such, the borderland prologue, lan's ToM sequence, Semirhage torture. All emotionally driven.

 

However, having said that, RJ did have some pretty damn good emotional stuff, Perrin's Two Rivers plot, A Cup of Sleep, trying to revive dead girl, etc..

 

Cup of Sleep was all time, that one always gets me and Taim's one liner reaction was epic. I always enjoyed the fight with the Seanchan in "A Time for Iron" as well. Man tPOD is actually pretty rad....

 

"Let's see if he's surprised by Callandor in the hands of the Dragon Reborn, Bashere"...."I am the storm" he whispered.

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Indeed, go borderlanders! Too bad Tenobia is a Darkfriend. (yes, she is indeed, I say!)

 

One of my favorite scenes as well. For all the pro's and con's of Sanderson's writing, I think he has the ability to write much better emotional scenes.

 

It may be just because it is comming to an end and everything emotional is going down now, but I felt much more emotionally involved in the past two books. I mean, Rand on top of Dragonmount, Rand all through ToM, Perrin being awesome and such, the borderland prologue, lan's ToM sequence, Semirhage torture. All emotionally driven.

 

However, having said that, RJ did have some pretty damn good emotional stuff, Perrin's Two Rivers plot, A Cup of Sleep, trying to revive dead girl, etc..

 

Cup of Sleep was all time, that one always gets me and Taim's one liner reaction was epic. I always enjoyed the fight with the Seanchan in "A Time for Iron" as well. Man tPOD is actually pretty rad....

 

"Let's see if he's surprised by Callandor in the hands of the Dragon Reborn, Bashere"...."I am the storm" he whispered.

 

Yeah, A Cup of Sleep was definitely touching. In particular I liked that it was done from Min's point of view. A sort of outside perspective into the grim everyday happenings of the ashamans' lives.

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The Ashaman, a group of men who volunteered to fight the Last Battle when they knew that doing so meant madness and death, are the other group of Randlanders who don't suck.

ok, I'll bite. Why do the Aiel and the Two Rivers people suck? The biggest knock on the Two Rivers in my book is that they decided to give up democracy in favor of feudalism. Other than that I don't see anything wrong with them. I don't see much wrong with the Aiel either. The only meritocracy in Randlands other than the Seafolk (who do suck but for other reasons).

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The Ashaman, a group of men who volunteered to fight the Last Battle when they knew that doing so meant madness and death, are the other group of Randlanders who don't suck.

ok, I'll bite. Why do the Aiel and the Two Rivers people suck? The biggest knock on the Two Rivers in my book is that they decided to give up democracy in favor of feudalism. Other than that I don't see anything wrong with them. I don't see much wrong with the Aiel either. The only meritocracy in Randlands other than the Seafolk (who do suck but for other reasons).

 

I don't consider the Aiel Randlanders. I'm not sure about the Seafolk, either.

 

The Two Rivers people? Well, giving up a functional democracy because a 17 year old shows up married to your village's old apprentice blacksmith, and you get butterflies in your tummy and want to call her, "My Lady?" Yeah, that sucks. So does the casual misandry of the entire female population of the place.

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The Ashaman, a group of men who volunteered to fight the Last Battle when they knew that doing so meant madness and death, are the other group of Randlanders who don't suck.

ok, I'll bite. Why do the Aiel and the Two Rivers people suck? The biggest knock on the Two Rivers in my book is that they decided to give up democracy in favor of feudalism. Other than that I don't see anything wrong with them. I don't see much wrong with the Aiel either. The only meritocracy in Randlands other than the Seafolk (who do suck but for other reasons).

 

I don't consider the Aiel Randlanders.

not sure why not but fine, let's skip the Aiel.

 

I'm not sure about the Seafolk, either.

 

The Two Rivers people? Well, giving up a functional democracy because a 17 year old shows up married to your village's old apprentice blacksmith, and you get butterflies in your tummy and want to call her, "My Lady?" Yeah, that sucks. So does the casual misandry of the entire female population of the place.

yes, I did mention that myself. I certainly don't like it but this is inevitable given that RJ was quite bent on presenting us with a world where monarchy was an acceptable and reasonable form of governance. Given that constraint, the Two Rivers folk are pretty much the best of the lot IMO. At least it's very clear that their current leaders were chosen by them (if not in any formal elections). This won't be true of their kids of course but that's glossed over as much as possible. The borderlanders have hereditary monarchies too, you know. yet they don't suck according to you.

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The Borderlanders have more of an excuse for their attachment to fuedalism; they're fighting a constant war. Maintaining a social order based on military preparedness makes sense.

 

The nations of the south? No such excuse.

 

And the fact that they fail to send even minimal financial assistance to the Borderlands is inexcusable. I give the Two River people and other similarly isolated/ignorant groups a pass on this, but not the nobles and royalty of the southern kingdoms, who know the threat is real and are content to spend money on palaces and silk gowns while better men die to protect them.

 

And the Waste isn't in Randland.

Edited by randsc
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The Two Rivers people? Well, giving up a functional democracy because a 17 year old shows up married to your village's old apprentice blacksmith, and you get butterflies in your tummy and want to call her, "My Lady?" Yeah, that sucks. So does the casual misandry of the entire female population of the place.

yes, I did mention that myself. I certainly don't like it but this is inevitable given that RJ was quite bent on presenting us with a world where monarchy was an acceptable and reasonable form of governance.

 

I think that the communication level of Randland isn't/wasn't high enough to sustain a democracy. Elections require reasonably quick communication, say at least the telegraph.

 

Falling under Lord Perrin mobilised the Two Rivers for war far better than a council/circle would have done. Likewise the rest of the nations.

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The Two Rivers people? Well, giving up a functional democracy because a 17 year old shows up married to your village's old apprentice blacksmith, and you get butterflies in your tummy and want to call her, "My Lady?" Yeah, that sucks. So does the casual misandry of the entire female population of the place.

yes, I did mention that myself. I certainly don't like it but this is inevitable given that RJ was quite bent on presenting us with a world where monarchy was an acceptable and reasonable form of governance.

 

I think that the communication level of Randland isn't/wasn't high enough to sustain a democracy. Elections require reasonably quick communication, say at least the telegraph.

 

Falling under Lord Perrin mobilised the Two Rivers for war far better than a council/circle would have done. Likewise the rest of the nations.

 

You're suggesting there were no elections prior to the invention of the telegraph?

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The Two Rivers is still democratic...

 

Somebody better tell the characters arranging dynastic marriages for their children, then. I rather doubt Elayne and Faile were making their plans on the assumption that Perrin's children would be blacksmiths or farmers.

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You're suggesting there were no elections prior to the invention of the telegraph?

Of course not. However not all forms of democracy are equal. A modern democracy, which is usually what I assume someone means when talking about democracy, wouldn't be sustainable in Randland, in my opinion. A democracy with high levels or disenfranchisement, such as only lords being able to vote, or a rich elite only, would not be markedly different from how Randland currently works, but would be manageable in Randland.

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+1 to Carnivean. If we go back to Ancient Greece and the "birth" of the democracy the only one allowed to vote were the men who had Athen citizenship. The people that were in Athen from other citystates were not allowed to vote, they had slaves which we don´t consider democratic in the modern sense of the word.

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+1 to Carnivean. If we go back to Ancient Greece and the "birth" of the democracy the only one allowed to vote were the men who had Athen citizenship. The people that were in Athen from other citystates were not allowed to vote, they had slaves which we don´t consider democratic in the modern sense of the word.

 

There were functioning democracies prior to the invention of the telegraph. Including at least one that spanned nearly an entire continent.

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You're suggesting there were no elections prior to the invention of the telegraph?

Of course not. However not all forms of democracy are equal. A modern democracy, which is usually what I assume someone means when talking about democracy, wouldn't be sustainable in Randland, in my opinion. A democracy with high levels or disenfranchisement, such as only lords being able to vote, or a rich elite only, would not be markedly different from how Randland currently works, but would be manageable in Randland.

 

There was a sustained democracy in Randland.

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There was a sustained democracy in Randland.

Which sovereign nation practiced democracy? I know that lots of places had mayors, and some had councils or similar that voted for rulers, but none that had national level democracy.

 

My point is that RJ went with Monarchy and feudalism because Randland isn't in a position for democracy to be a viable mode of government for a nation, and I gave a guess as to why.

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