Question about Taim

[Cybertrolloc]

It might be interesting to find out why the red herrings in LoC someday if the reason is known. The descriptions and what we can gather of attitude/view of things match way too well, well not match, but it's something like describes Dem's eyes but not Taim's while describes Taim's nose but not Dem's...

[WoTMegaFan_007]

I think the reason he was so direct about it was that it was so obvious that taim was Demandred. Had his answer been the usual RAFO, everone would have "known" Taim = Demandred. Mostly, his RAFO answers were more about things that were discussed and open for different theories, or am I wrong?

 

No I don't think he changed it. It's not the kind of thing I would expect him to do. And he was much too "sneaky" to "reveal" Demandreds whereabouts so openly and then change when people got it. After all, he said that Asmodeans killer was obvious, even to a casual observer. If he wanted to keep things secret, it would be hidden in a much, much more devious way.

 

Taim is Demandred. Keep it simple stupid. It was completely obvious who killed Asmodean. In the book RIGHT AFTER Asmodean was killed, we see Grendal stepping though a gateway. We also found out from the spider that Grendal and Rahvin are going to surprise Rand (this was when she was capture by braid tugger). Todday, we now know for sure it was Grendal. I think a lot of the "sneaky" behavior RJ was described as having is people simply being ignorant to his fairly direct writing. Based on how Taim behaves and how Demandred is described as behaving it's obvious they are one and the same.

[Mr Ares]

Taim is Demandred. Keep it simple stupid. It was completely obvious who killed Asmodean. In the book RIGHT AFTER Asmodean was killed, we see Grendal stepping though a gateway. We also found out from the spider that Grendal and Rahvin are going to surprise Rand (this was when she was capture by braid tugger). Today, we now know for sure it was Grendal. I think a lot of the "sneaky" behavior RJ was described as having is people simply being ignorant to his fairly direct writing. Based on how Taim behaves and how Demandred is described as behaving it's obvious they are one and the same.

We see Graendal stepping through a Gateway? Compelling. Considering we don't see Graendal until a couple of weeks after the death, I have to say that doesn't count as evidence of anything other than Graendal knowing how to Travel. That Graendal and Rahvin (and Lanfear) were planning to surprise attack Rand (while he was attacking Sammael) was well known, but so what? As was often pointed out in the Asmo threads, Graendal wasn't hanging around Caemlyn on the off chance. Rahvin made it quite clear he didn't want the others there. Of course, we also have Demandred's POV confirmation that he is not Taim, and RJ's comments outside the books (he was asked this a lot. It annoyed him) saying that Taim is not Demandred, Demandred is not Taim, and Taim is not pronounced Tame, it's Ta-eem, dammit.

[Eichhörnchen]

Taim is Guaire Amalasan who was freed during the assault on the tower by his retainers then put by darkfriends into a stasis box. He has recently been freed.

[OptimusPrime]

I think the reason he was so direct about it was that it was so obvious that taim was Demandred. Had his answer been the usual RAFO, everone would have "known" Taim = Demandred. Mostly, his RAFO answers were more about things that were discussed and open for different theories, or am I wrong?

 

No I don't think he changed it. It's not the kind of thing I would expect him to do. And he was much too "sneaky" to "reveal" Demandreds whereabouts so openly and then change when people got it. After all, he said that Asmodeans killer was obvious, even to a casual observer. If he wanted to keep things secret, it would be hidden in a much, much more devious way.

 

Taim is Demandred. Keep it simple stupid. It was completely obvious who killed Asmodean. In the book RIGHT AFTER Asmodean was killed, we see Grendal stepping though a gateway. We also found out from the spider that Grendal and Rahvin are going to surprise Rand (this was when she was capture by braid tugger). Todday, we now know for sure it was Grendal. I think a lot of the "sneaky" behavior RJ was described as having is people simply being ignorant to his fairly direct writing. Based on how Taim behaves and how Demandred is described as behaving it's obvious they are one and the same.

 

Taim is not Demandred. Keep it real, stupid, and do not call the author a liar. Based on how Demandred is described as hating Lews Therin, it is highly unlikely that he would save Rand at Dumais Wells. The guy doesnt even care about being Nae'blis as much as he cares about killing Rand, if you were to believe Brandon, which you should. Demandred encountered Flynn at the Cleansing and did not recognise him. So theres your proof that they are not one and the same. Aside from the fact that RJ personally debunked Taimandred.

 

Taim was never meant to be Demandred.

[Mightelove]

There's no point in arguing with them. They will believe, even after Demandred's identity has been revealed and he, at some point, stands side by side with Taim, that they are still the same guy. It was a trick, some funky mirror trick, you can't deceive them, they know Demandred is Taim. Just don't even go there.

[sora114]

Taim is Guaire Amalasan who was freed during the assault on the tower by his retainers then put by darkfriends into a stasis box. He has recently been freed.

THAT would be a shock. And very sneaky.

[NitroS]

The reading comprehension of the last posters is beyond bad, i dont believe taim is demandred, i asked if you think robert jordan changed it as he stated somewhere that at the start he tried to change based on theories being correct but found it to difficult.

 

as soon as people see taim and demandred together they instantly rage and think people still think demandred is taim.

[UncleButcher1980]

Unfortunately people do still think Taim is Demandred, unless Guru was just trolling.

[Eichhörnchen]

Taim is Guaire Amalasan who was freed during the assault on the tower by his retainers then put by darkfriends into a stasis box. He has recently been freed.

THAT would be a shock. And very sneaky.

 

 

Unlikely but I find it an interesting concept. Amalasan does keep appearing in the WoT lore for some odd reason.

 

The appearance and age of the two figures matches rather well. Also Amalasan was noted for his knowledge of the past, being quite the historian. Taim also gives a very educated learned appearance. The so-called Aiel comment would also be applicable to Taim if he were Amalasan. The military prowess of the two are also an interesting similarity and the similar fate both suffered in a way, Amalasan was only brought to defeat by encountering the strongest taveren, Taim also was conquering everything until a taveren action caused his defeat. etc.. etc..

[Mightelove]

The reading comprehension of the last posters is beyond bad, i dont believe taim is demandred, i asked if you think robert jordan changed it as he stated somewhere that at the start he tried to change based on theories being correct but found it to difficult.

 

as soon as people see taim and demandred together they instantly rage and think people still think demandred is taim.

The reading comprehension of most of us is just fine. I think it's a gut reaction when we see someone posting that they think Taim and Demandred are the same to just flat out say no.

 

We know that wasn't the question of the original post, but, somehow, someone....guru, I believe, decided to state that we're all stupid and Demadred IS Taim. So, there you have it, there's your reason why people are arguing about it again. Kick Guru. *nodnod*

 

No, Taim is NOT Demandred. We know you know that. Nor was he ever meant to be Demandred. We know that because Robert Jordan told us so. He had no reason to lie about it. He's never had a problem with people making theories, he's never had a problem with people coming to the right conclusion. Probably, more than likely, what happened is that he was shocked when the theory came out because of how wrong it was. He probably never meant to draw so many similarities between the two men and, reading back, was probably surprised by how similar they seem. I have no doubt he understood, to some degree, why people came to that conclusion, but it just seemed completely obvious to him that they weren't the same. But, he's the writer, the creator, the head honcho. What is obvious to him may not be obvious to us.

 

It would be completely out of character for him to have changed the identity of Taim and Demandred in response to someone coming to the right conclusion. He would have been much more likely to RAFO the identity than to change it. he never said anything else about Taim's or Demandred's identity. He never had to. No one ever came close to figuring them out.

[herid]

Taim is Guaire Amalasan who was freed during the assault on the tower by his retainers then put by darkfriends into a stasis box. He has recently been freed.

Amalasan was gentled so that couldn't work unless somebody on the dark side knew how to heal gentling before Nynaeve did it. That seems very unlikely based on all the evidence we have.

[brolie]

So the responses got quite long and i didnt see this point brought up but i thought i would...

 

if dashiva is aginor, i dont think the forsaken would have been okay with both being in disguise as asha'man and in the black tower or in rands company and all that. plus i dont remember aginor and demandred talking about alliance or anything but i might be mistaken... but even if they had talked about an alliance and all of that, it would have been a bigger deal that both aginor and demandred were in that circle.

 

and as far as reading through, i never thought of taim as demandred or even a forsaken, but a dark friend in charge.. maybe he is working FOR demandred, like Alviarin working for mesaana/DO or something like that. i just think that would be more logical considering...

[Kahsm]

Taim is Guaire Amalasan who was freed during the assault on the tower by his retainers then put by darkfriends into a stasis box. He has recently been freed.

THAT would be a shock. And very sneaky.

 

 

Unlikely but I find it an interesting concept. Amalasan does keep appearing in the WoT lore for some odd reason.

 

The appearance and age of the two figures matches rather well. Also Amalasan was noted for his knowledge of the past, being quite the historian. Taim also gives a very educated learned appearance. The so-called Aiel comment would also be applicable to Taim if he were Amalasan. The military prowess of the two are also an interesting similarity and the similar fate both suffered in a way, Amalasan was only brought to defeat by encountering the strongest taveren, Taim also was conquering everything until a taveren action caused his defeat. etc.. etc..

 

I was on board with this as a theory until I looked at the dates.

 

Knowing what the word Aiel means, or the history of the Aiel, won't cause someone to say "so-called" in such a dismissive and frankly offended manner. You simply do not gain such a personal connection to something by studying it in a book. The "so-called" comment is probably the strongest evidence of something AoL-ish about Mazrim Taim. I'd more likely believe he was raised by a secret society of surviving Jen Aiel.

 

I also find it highly unlikely that darkfriends found a stasis box in 943, long before the Chosen awoke, and long after the AoL ended. And if they did, that they'd use it for some gentled channeler.

[NitroS]

as of TOM we still havent seen demandred alter ego on screen and there really hasnt been much of a disruption outside wats going on screens except the various civil wars, i just dont understand why such a big forsaken would be written to have no role/no proof of his role until the final book, as with messanna who is mentioned half of what demandred is when in forsaken company etc and we havent even seen him yet, if he ends up being some king in myen or along those lines it will be a bit of a let down, atleast with danelle and messanna we actually saw that she did something.

 

Thinking more about it considering how much robert jordan kept messanna hidden he wouldnt make it as obvious as taim is to demandred and that still means he must have been taken over sometime between getting captured and the forming of the black tower. Then again rahvin was extremely obvious in who he was posing as.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

I am rereading LOC and just hit the spot where Tail refers to the "so called Ariel." This and other things suggest to me that Tail is from the AoL. I wonder if Taim was at the bore for some reason and got sealed in along with the forsaken. Perhaps he was a young dreadlord or some other darkfriend who was providing some service. If he was seen as some type of servant or still in training in the AoL the ego-driven Chosen may have barely noticed him. I guess I need to go back and see when Tain first appeared.

[Eichhörnchen]

Perhaps he was one of the 100 companions but was too close to the bore when it was getting sealed.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

I wonder if Taim was at the bore when it was sealed. Perhaps he was a budding dreadlord who was there to take the oaths, or maybe he was delivering something to one of the Chosen. He happened to get trapped by the strike. The Chosen might not have given him much notice if he was acting as some type of servant or apprentice. If he popped from the bore at a different time than anyone else some of the Chosen might not even realize that he is around.

[Barid Bel Medar]

So the responses got quite long and i didnt see this point brought up but i thought i would...

 

if dashiva is aginor, i dont think the forsaken would have been okay with both being in disguise as asha'man and in the black tower or in rands company and all that. plus i dont remember aginor and demandred talking about alliance or anything but i might be mistaken... but even if they had talked about an alliance and all of that, it would have been a bigger deal that both aginor and demandred were in that circle.

 

and as far as reading through, i never thought of taim as demandred or even a forsaken, but a dark friend in charge.. maybe he is working FOR demandred, like Alviarin working for mesaana/DO or something like that. i just think that would be more logical considering...

 

Well Taim isnt demandred because RJ said it multiple times, but I also agree with your reasoning. I didnt see him as Demandred, they are a bit similar, but I would hardly call them identical. Taim is far different if you actually look at them both. And your right about Aginor, doubt they would put 2 forsaken in the one place, and, as you mentioned, there was no talk between Demandred and Aginor either. Taim would have talked to Aginor quite a bit, so i would have said that Dmeandred and Aginor would have to be at least a bit familiar with each other.

 

Anyway, as for your summation of DF, I dont agree, its clear that Taim is something more than your average DF or even Black Ajah, he spouts random "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule", "so-called" Aiel, and walks around like a AoL'er. He has to be one of the Forsaken's protoge, or an AoL/Forsaken himself. There is certainly nothing average about the guy.

[Kahsm]

I wonder if Taim was at the bore when it was sealed. Perhaps he was a budding dreadlord who was there to take the oaths, or maybe he was delivering something to one of the Chosen. He happened to get trapped by the strike. The Chosen might not have given him much notice if he was acting as some type of servant or apprentice. If he popped from the bore at a different time than anyone else some of the Chosen might not even realize that he is around.

 

IIRC that theory fell apart because he would have to have been let out around Ishy's time to start his false dragon campaign, which means he was trapped close to the surface, which means he'd have been all physically (if not mentally) messed up like Ishy.

 

Though there are a few other theories of how AoL Taim got to the 3rd age:

 

An AoL personality takes over Mazrim Taim in 3rd Age: http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=121&theo=2053 (author guesses Beidomon, though it could be any number of AoL channelers, really)

AoL Mazrim Taim rides a stasis box to the 3rd Age: http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=121&theo=2761 (Kinda "out there" imo)

AoL Mazrim Taim personality takes over unkown 3rd Age person: http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=121&theo=2761#22172 (link to comment 60, my personal favourite... cause I wrote it.)

[WhiskyJack]

Mazrim Taim is ....complicated. Rand taught him Traveling unless he was faking. If he wasn't then he surely is from 3rd age. But then Bashere failed to recognize him when they met in Camelyn. Does that mean Taim is not Taim or Bashere is not Bashere?

[OptimusPrime]

Hello.

 

I am here to destroy talk of RJ changing his mind.

 

First things first. As a Chosen, you would think Demandred would be the archtypical schemer-among-schemers like the rest, aiming to pull Moridin down and take the Nae'blis seat of power for himself. We have seen several Forsaken PoVs reference this as a goal. In contrast to this, Brandon has said that pulling Moridin down isnt as important to him as killing Rand.

 

Demandred would have used Dumais Wells as an excuse.

 

With Graendals PoV from ToM, she notes to herself that Demandred never seems to enjoy anything. When Taim showed up in LoC he was loving every second of it.

 

At the Cleansing, Demandred chickened out because he was surprised Rands minions could match him even in a circle. The excuse diehard fans give him is that he is a general.

 

A general does not walts up to the enemy for the kind of chat Taim had with Rand.

 

Taim was never Demandred.

 

But then Bashere failed to recognize him when they met in Camelyn. Does that mean Taim is not Taim or Bashere is not Bashere?

 

It means Taim is not Taim. That, along with many other minor details from that same scene, let alone the rest of the books.

[EvilSocrates]

What exactly is Taim's problem with Rand anyhow? Dragon envy? I don't think that's it, because I don't think the dude we know as Taim is actually the guy who proclaimed himself. He seems to hate Rand beyond all reason, and especially hates not being his equal, which is why he seemed so Demandredy in the first place. I don't know what his problem is. He seems to take everything Rand does very personally.

 

Also, Lews Therin voice hated him a whole bunch, but zen-Rand never had a "you know, now that I remember my past lives, I should really go take care of that Taim guy who is definitely this dude I knew from the last age and is out to get me and must be destroyed" moment. What was Therin's problem (which seemed more than his standard "that dude can channel, and I HATE THOSE. ILYEEEEEEENAAAAAAA!!!! *cackle cackle wheeze sob cackle*") and why haven't we heard about it.

 

I find the Taim stuff much more frustrating than the Perrin/Faile arc actually. Every time we go to the Black Tower or see an man in black, Rand is busy twiddling his thumbs while Taim strokes a thin mustache in a menacing way, and glaring at Rand with hate. I always kind of hated his character as a result, because he's a big mystery wrapped in a plot hole wrapped in Rand carrying the Idiot Ball wrapped in a forum war. I think that's why people want Taimdred to be true, because, you know, it would have been a better story that way.

[OptimusPrime]

Taimandred fans never make the leap that its MORIDIN!

 

No, Im not saying Moridin proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn, I am saying Moridin is the one Forsaken where we knew the person their body belonged to. Taim was Taim is Moridin, it explains every little quirk and mannerism you can think of, from being annoyed at the Pin and Dragon to being curious about Rand distancing his loved ones to being amused at Rands paranoia of Aes Sedai (which Moridin encouraged by whispering in his ear like he did to Hawkwing)

 

Lews Therin didnt recognise Elan Morin in EotW prologue. If Rand/Lews has any talent to recognise souls or some such, the madness is the excuse for not seeing it.

[Stitch]

Taim being Death is certainly a possibility (knowing that Taim PROBABLY has the dreamspike and appears to have someone in his corner using either compulsion or else that 13Fade soul stealing thing) or he could simply be allied with him. Personally I think that Taim is just being a biatch....

 

Dunno where Demandred is, but from previous comments from the 'Chosen' he is one of the ones who is going to be more likely to want to be in control of a country or major organisation, Isle of the Mad perhaps? Maybe he is the one who is leading those freaky red veiled aiel, it would probably appeal to his sense of trying to one up LT, since Rand has the Aiel it might make Demandred be likely to go after the Red Aiel, sort of like how he and LT were often so compared during the AoL.