Ranking the Forsaken

[Entreri]

We know that the top 6 Forsaken are: Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Grandael, Sammaela and Semirhage.

 

Ranked in their order of their capabilities and threat level.

 

1) Ishamael.

 

Strong as any man ever, strong as LTT, and Nae'blis. DO "The Chosen are always the strongest". The Nae'blis is the strongest.

 

2) Demandred.

 

Mr. Almost to LTT. Perennial #2.

 

3) Graendal.

 

Possibly the smartest Forsaken (although raw IQ wise that could be either Ishamael/Philosopher or Aginor/Scientist) but with her knowledge of the human mind makes her extremely dangerous. First Forsaken Rand said was more clever than him and was no sure how to handle her for a long time. Even with his ingenious plan, she still escaped. And usually she comes well prepared (angreal) and does not let emotion cloud her judgement (Lanfear).

 

Since her first appearance in book 5, it has taken 8 books to finally bring her down. And she faced off against an almost LTT in Rand...not a half trained farm boy who has yet to gain his full strength with an almost sa'angreal at her disposal (Lanfear in FoH).

 

Unseen watcher's (Ishamael's) comment: "...what had stayed her from killing Sammael". It shows what Ishamael thinks of her capabilities.

 

She was ready to battle Lanfear and probably had an angreal with her and thus would have likely won the fight.

 

4) Lanfear. Strong as any woman ever and very skilled. A formidable forsaken in the first 5 books, but her emotions get the better of her and delusions of grandeur, otherwise she would be #3.

 

5) Sammael. One of the top generals in the War of Power and Grandael did not question him being named Nae'blis. This shows his capabilities as well.

 

He was ready to destroy Lanfear and Grandael (balefiring both possibly) and would have if not for Rahvin interfering.

 

6) Semirhage. The second most dangerous of the trio (Demandered, Semirhage, Mesaana) according to Grandael.

 

 

 

Second tier Forsaken, although it could be argued that Rahvin belongs in the first tier:

 

7) Rahvin. He was certain that either he or Sammael could take out Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation. Indicating he is a very strong OP wielder even for a man, and a very skilled channeler. He was the first one to argue in his meeting with Ishamael, before Be'lal chipped in. Andor was his and almost nobody knew.

 

8) Be'lal

 

9) Mesaana

 

10) Balthamel (he could be 3rd tier).

 

Third tier Forsaken - the 'weak' dogs

 

11) Aginor

 

While "almost" the strength of LTT and Ishamael, and likely equal to strength of Demandred, he is a physical coward and not a military tactician or fighter.

 

12) Moghedien

 

13) Asmodean

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I would put Sammael down in the second tier and Balthamel down in the third tier. Other than that I generally agree with your tier assignments, although not with many of the individual rankings therein. However, I might create a fourth tier (or rather a zeroth tier) for Ishy and Lanfear. They've done more to alter Rand's development (and hence the outcome of the Age) than all the other Forsaken combined.

 

So:

 

Top Tier:

 

1) Ishamael

2) Lanfear (I'll wait for AMoL to decide whether she should actually be above Ishy.)

 

Second Tier:

 

3) Demandred (I'm going purely on Brandon's word that Demandred is a huge player; else I would not rank him at all for lack of information.)

4) Semirhage

5) Graendal (She never really got her chance to shine, or else she'd be in the top tier.)

6) Mesaana (Less infamous, but surprisingly effective.)

 

Third Tier:

 

7) Rahvin (A good plotter, but narrow-minded, deluded, and oblivious like all the third-tier Forsaken.)

8) Sammael

9) Be'lal

 

Fourth Tier:

 

10) Asmodean (He made his big move and nearly prevailed, but was otherwise unremarkable as a threat.)

11) Moghedien (If she weren't such a coward, she'd be in the third tier. Maybe AMoL will boost her rating.)

12) Aginor (Really strong on paper, but a whiny child in TEotW and useless as a 'Gar.)

13) Balthamel (How did this foolish lech survive all the way till TGS?)

[Nightstrike]

I don't know who reaches to the greatest threat level in AMoL. Those that haven't been punished/weakened/soul-trapped/and so on might be the greater threat.

 

(Ishy & Demandred?)

 

Many of the Forsaken were defeated even though they were strong & Talented. Bad luck - maybe for some? Or maybe the Wheel worked ta'veren against them?

[MarkDiLillo]

It depends on the criteria that you are ranking them really. In terms of sheer results and competency in this age, Ishamael is number one clearly. Demandred and Mesaana share #2 so far. Mesaana only failed to succeed because Graendal screwed her plan up, and Demandred seems to have had no mishaps whatsoever so far.

 

All of the others are really pretty much total failures and are incompetent in some form. Despite Graendal's longevity and appearance of power, she may well have been the most incompetent of them all. She really just flopped one plan after another while simultaneously ruining other Forsaken's plans. What has she actually done besides stay hidden for awhile and help Sammael spread some chaos? Aginor really is one of the Shadows most powerful servants of all time, but his skillset became useless in this new age. Balthamel was pretty useless as well.

 

Who's left? Be'lal failed right away and got killed by a modern day wimpy Aes Sedai. Sammael and Rahvin didn't even try to hide who they were or what they controlled and got stomped for their stupidity. Moghedien got her ass kicked and captured right away. Did she even have any plans?! Semirhage seems fairly competent and probably deserves the #3 spot so far. She only failed after Rand was well trained in the OP and was surrounded by a small and competent army of Aes Sedai (and Asha'man?).

 

Lanfear...did she ever even do anything to help the shadow? She was basically on Rand's team the entire time. She saved his life more than once, helped him capture Asmo to teach him, educated him on some key items, and flat out tried to warn him of danger more than once. It's almost not fair to rank her on the list of Forsaken because she never seemed to do anything evil until she went nuts at the docks.

 

So.....

 

#1 Ishamael. Hard to beat 3000 years of advancing the bad guy agenda.

 

#2 Demandred. The only Forsaken to not have any mishaps yet. Even Ishamael got himself killed.

 

#3 Mesaana. If not for Graendal, she would have been 100% successful (we are lead to believe so at least).

 

#4 Semirhage. She was more successful than the other losers below, and lasted quite awhile.

 

Losers = Sammael, Rahvin, Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal all failed pretty spectacularly.

 

Slightly below the losers because she not only failed her objectives, but also screwed up other plans = Graendal.

 

Easily the biggest losers of the month = Moghedien and Asmo. They both got captured and taught the other side how to be more effective.

 

Hard to place on the list = Lanfear. She obviously seemed "evil", but she seemingly only took actions to help Rand and his friends.

[Durinax]

I would rank asmo higher than half the other peeps, he split the aiel, which revaged cairhein, ghealdan.

 

hell even though asmos clan failed it may still cause damage in the alliance between randland and seanchan.

 

plus he was betrayed by lanfear or else he would have gotten control of the CK before rand and could have done a ton of damage

[MarkDiLillo]

I would rank asmo higher than half the other peeps, he split the aiel, which revaged cairhein, ghealdan.

 

hell even though asmos clan failed it may still cause damage in the alliance between randland and seanchan.

 

plus he was betrayed by lanfear or else he would have gotten control of the CK before rand and could have done a ton of damage

 

Ya, that's a good point...but it's based on a lot of "if's" unfortunately. If you give a bunch of "if's" to all the others then they all look better too.

[John E. Kelley]

I also think that everyone is downplaying Asmodean's contributions to the Shadow's cause. If we're just talking about sheer strength with the Power, then he probably does fall into the lower tiers. But if we're talking about individual Forsaken's contributions to the Shadow's cause, then I think there's no doubt that old Asmo was the Forsaken that just may have accomplished the most. His manipulation of Coualadin and Seavannah definitely caused the most hardship for Rand (and Perrrin) that it can't be overlooked imo. The repercussions of his work were felt for half of the series. And if not for Lanfears interference, who knows how events would have played Out? Definitely one of the most tragic figures of the series, a fan favorite, I just think that he deserves better than what we've ranked him at to this point.

[MarkDiLillo]

I guess it's hard to rank him. On one hand, he flat out got his ass kicked and joined the other team because he's such a wimp. But on the other hand, you guys are right...the little bit of bad guying he did really impacted the series.

[Nightstrike]

Lanfear seemed a much greater threat in the beginning of the series. Or maybe I'm mistaken? She could still be - even weakened & soul-trapped.

 

I never saw Asmodean as a great threat, but I guess he was in some ways (in retrospect).

 

Moghedien has seemed as a threat at times, but she never did any lasting damage, did she?

[John E. Kelley]

Lanfear seemed a much greater threat in the beginning of the series. Or maybe I'm mistaken? She could still be - even weakened & soul-trapped.

 

I never saw Asmodean as a great threat, but I guess he was in some ways (in retrospect).

 

Moghedien has seemed as a threat at times, but she never did any lasting damage, did she?

Well, she did issue a bunch of commands to the BA in Tanchico that haven't really seen any results from at this point so who knows? The Spider may still have something to add but obviously there isn't a lot of time left for those plans to bear fruit.

[Nightstrike]

Taim might not be among the original Forsaken, but he sure seems like a huge threat before AMoL. I've always seen him as a threat, and now more than ever.

 

Semirhage was the most evil of all the Forsaken, IMO. She always seemed as a threat, and if you count all her victims, then I'd say she was. I think one might assume she gathered a lot of info from her victims, and it seems reasonable for a reader to assume that most of it was off-screen (is that the right term, english isn't my mother tongue?).

[hazelkrs1]

As for Asmo, even though the Shaido did wreak a lot of havoc, even the chaos that resulted had some unintended good consequences. First, the Shaido heading out of the waste forced Rand to chase after them, bringing his Aiel army into play perhaps a lot sooner than he might have meant to. This might be a stretch: Rand could have intended to bring them out immediately anyways, but with so many other things he starts them and leaves before they're finished like he's a gourmet chef with 7 different sauces on the stove. Anyways, Rand uses the Aiel a LOT for many tasks here or there after that, and things might have gone differently had he left some general to corral all the Aiel and hold them somewhere for Rand until he was ready to use them. Also, the Shaido bring out more of the wolf in Perrin, encourage people in many nations to start mobilizing for fear of being attacked, and give the Aiel following Rand a common enemy to hate; without the Shaido to despize many more might have been lost to the brotherless (I know many of the brotherless joined the Shaido, but without the Shaido the brotherless might have become roving bands of Aiel that weren't that evil but still would have presented problems for Rand). Not only that, but the Shaido set the precedent for changing the many customs of the Aiel, something they probably will start doing as a whole very soon. I feel like any bad that might have come out of Asmo splitting the Aiel is far outweighed by the training he gave to Rand.

 

Anyways, for what it's worth and in spite of my deficient amount of knowledge concerning all the evils done by Forsaken, my ranks:

 

1. Ishamael - Nae'blis, doesn't get more on top of the list than that

 

2. Mesaana - I really think a lot of people are REALLY underestimating the amount of damage to the light that Mesaana has done with her subterfuge in the tower. It's obvious she helped manipulate things to get Elaida to become Amyrlin, and this had such huge ramifications it's scary. Not just the white tower split, or the handling of Rand, or making enough distractions that noone was really ready for the Seanchan attack on the WT, but in general the Light's second strongest weapon against the DO was the WT after Rand, and it was desperately needed to help qualm the bubbles of evil, restore order to several kingdoms in disarray, and start hunting the forsaken with Rand, but it wasn't able to do any of those things well because of one Forsaken. Pretty effective if you ask me.

 

3. Demandred - mostly because of his buildup and because I feel he's largely responsible for the attack on Caemlyn at the end of ToM, an event which will have dire implications heading into last book of series.

 

4. Semirhage - almost wanted to put her third, I think she's somewhat underrated as well. Not only does she destroy the Seanchan royal family, she also misguides Tuon as well. Think of how much easier it might have been for Rand to possibly create peace with the Seanchan, now Tuon thinks she has no choice but to try to take over the whole continent. AND she came that close to forcing Rand to kill Min, that would have definitely catapulted him to madness.

 

5,6. Sammael, Rahvin - tie for these two because they both had built foundations of power, did some kinda evil things to a few main characters, and really their main weakness was their pride, something every Forsaken can identify with. They just assumed they could take Rand somehow, that he wasn't LTT yet. Rahvin might even be slightly ahead because his manipulation made it very difficult for Elayne to gain her mother's throne and some of the lords that were on his side might still cause difficulties for someone.

 

7. Be'lal - I think he was kinda unlucky, he really had some great plans in the works and he wasn't leaving too much out of the picture in going after the wondergirls, Moiraine, and comes pretty close to gaining Callandor, which could have been either an advantage or disadvantage possibly, but still.

 

8. Balthamel - It's a little hard for me to decide who to place above the other when it comes to Balthamel and Aginor because I'm not sure which is which 'Gar, but they both failed in a very ridiculous fashion in one of the only times more than one Forsaken has teamed up to face the good guys, and still got beaten even though Rand was green as he could be and the other taveren were pretty much useless.

 

9. Aginor - The reason he ends up going below Balthamel: the only Forsaken so far who actually burns himself out. Wow.

 

10,11. Lanfear, Graendel - tied because they both never really do much to help out the shadow, but both of them several times ruin the plans of other forsaken. I would have put Graendel above Lanfear because she was at least trying to make some evil plans (all of which failed), and she did gather a lot of information about the good guys plans (even tho she deigns not to share that information with pretty much anyone) but Cyndane might end up doing some more evil stuff in aMoL I think.

 

12. Asmodean - already covered him pretty much, he goes above Moggy because he wasn't quite as cowardly.

 

13. Moghedien - pretty much useless to the shadow, and surprisingly very useful for the light!

[Durinax]

I dont think Demandred should be ranked at all, we dont know what he has, what he had done, or anything like that, everything we know of him is speculation.

 

I also think that Asmo is the most underrated, mostly because if rand was a fraction of a second later rand would have been destroyed by asmo with the CK. not to mention he caused 3 aiel clans to not follow rand for a long period of time (due to confusion between two Caracarns or however you spell it) and in effect it was him who caused the bleakness

[Terez]

I dont think Demandred should be ranked at all, we dont know what he has, what he had done, or anything like that, everything we know of him is speculation.

Aside from the fact that he is essentially the last one standing not counting Moridin who died. I wouldn't be surprised if Graendal was Mindtrapped by now. By all appearances - secure rule, armies - he hasn't made any major screw-ups yet.

[MarkDiLillo]

I dont think Demandred should be ranked at all, we dont know what he has, what he had done, or anything like that, everything we know of him is speculation.

Aside from the fact that he is essentially the last one standing not counting Moridin who died. I wouldn't be surprised if Graendal was Mindtrapped by now. By all appearances - secure rule, armies - he hasn't made any major screw-ups yet.

 

I'm willing to bet Graendal appears with a mind trap. Moridin's 3 shadow women bound in slavery vs Rand's 3 good girls in love with him.

[Ataxia]

I think Aginor should be ranked higher on peoples lists. Even though he didnt do much this age, creating Trollocs has had a long lasting impact.

[hazelkrs1]

I think Aginor should be ranked higher on peoples lists. Even though he didnt do much this age, creating Trollocs has had a long lasting impact.

 

Maybe, but then you'd have to start using many of the actions done by Forsaken in ages past, which wouldn't be easy because there's most likely a lot we don't know about them still, and plus, he burned himself out. Huge negative on his part I'd say. Doing something they even teach white tower novices to never do is kind of an unforgivable slip-up for one of the Chosen IMO.

[Durinax]

I dont think Demandred should be ranked at all, we dont know what he has, what he had done, or anything like that, everything we know of him is speculation.

Aside from the fact that he is essentially the last one standing not counting Moridin who died. I wouldn't be surprised if Graendal was Mindtrapped by now. By all appearances - secure rule, armies - he hasn't made any major screw-ups yet.

neither did Rhavhin or Sammael they made no mistakes, they just had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time

[hazelkrs1]

I dont think Demandred should be ranked at all, we dont know what he has, what he had done, or anything like that, everything we know of him is speculation.

Aside from the fact that he is essentially the last one standing not counting Moridin who died. I wouldn't be surprised if Graendal was Mindtrapped by now. By all appearances - secure rule, armies - he hasn't made any major screw-ups yet.

neither did Rhavhin or Sammael they made no mistakes, they just had the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time

 

Their mistake was doing things that would make it too easy for LTT to recognize them for who they were. And though Rand and LTT hadn't merged yet, his hatred for the Forsaken showed enough that Rand trusted that they were who LTT thought they were. I think Be'lal didn't truly make a mistake; his messup was trusting that the minions he sent to perform a task would succeed. Without Moiraine showing up to stop him, he easily could have killed Rand AND gained Callandor in one fell swoop.

[Thor]

There's no way that Aginor is last tier.

[Arhior]

I mostly agree with your tiers but I actually think graendal needs to be above Lanfear, and Mesana not that high... i mean she got powned like a little child in ToM

[Durinax]

I mostly agree with your tiers but I actually think graendal needs to be above Lanfear, and Mesana not that high... i mean she got powned like a little child in ToM

she didnt really get pwnd considering that it was only a spark of insanity (my belief, since it coincides with the same symptoms as rands early on) on egwenes part that saved her, in fact she pwnd egwene up until that which after that became a stroke of luck in my books

[Nygma]

2. Mesaana - I really think a lot of people are REALLY underestimating the amount of damage to the light that Mesaana has done with her subterfuge in the tower. It's obvious she helped manipulate things to get Elaida to become Amyrlin, and this had such huge ramifications it's scary. Not just the white tower split, or the handling of Rand, or making enough distractions that noone was really ready for the Seanchan attack on the WT, but in general the Light's second strongest weapon against the DO was the WT after Rand, and it was desperately needed to help qualm the bubbles of evil, restore order to several kingdoms in disarray, and start hunting the forsaken with Rand, but it wasn't able to do any of those things well because of one Forsaken. Pretty effective if you ask me.

I think people overestimate Mesaana, attributing to her what the WT, frankly, was perfectly capable of achieving without her.

 

Start with Elaida becoming Amyrlin. Elaida initiated this, telling Alviarin "Walk with me."

[scenario with Mesaana] Mesaana thinks having a Red in charge of the White Tower with a BA second is a Good Thing and orders the BA to support it.

[scenario without Mesaana] Alviarin thinks having a Red in charge of the White Tower with a BA second is a Good Thing and orders the BA to support it.

 

You can play this out with EVERYTHING Mesaana can try to claim as a triumph. Elaida was a rabid Red who wholeheartedly believed in controlling the Dragon Reborn. She was decisive and bold, if nuts. She initiated and ordered the kidnappings of not only Rand, but the kings of Arad Doman and Illian as well. She hated the Blue, particularly Moiraine and Siuan, and was never going to trust them, so she disbanded the entire Ajah. Without Mesaana, these things play out exactly as they did.

 

Further, Mesaana's control was pretty weak. Not only was Elaida too headstrong to control, but Mesaana had to discipline Alviarin for going beyond what Mesaana explicitly allowed as she tried to rein in Elaida.

 

Basically, all Mesaana did was sit in the Tower and worry Egwene until she was captured. (Hell, the events that most worried Egwene weren't even Mesaana's work - it was the Seanchans'.) The only thing you can really give her credit for is - after the Tower had split and Salidar had already decided to depose Elaida - furthering the split between Ajahs by some nasty underhanded subterfuge.

[Arhior]

I mostly agree with your tiers but I actually think graendal needs to be above Lanfear, and Mesana not that high... i mean she got powned like a little child in ToM

she didnt really get pwnd considering that it was only a spark of insanity (my belief, since it coincides with the same symptoms as rands early on) on egwenes part that saved her, in fact she pwnd egwene up until that which after that became a stroke of luck in my books

 

maybe Egwene got owned but still... Egwene had the hardest part, and Mesana didnt do much in my eyes to break the tower so...

[Durinax]

I mostly agree with your tiers but I actually think graendal needs to be above Lanfear, and Mesana not that high... i mean she got powned like a little child in ToM

she didnt really get pwnd considering that it was only a spark of insanity (my belief, since it coincides with the same symptoms as rands early on) on egwenes part that saved her, in fact she pwnd egwene up until that which after that became a stroke of luck in my books

 

maybe Egwene got owned but still... Egwene had the hardest part, and Mesana didnt do much in my eyes to break the tower so...

so your saying splitting the tower, capturing rand and torturing him is nothing?

 

[scenario without Mesaana] Alviarin thinks having a Red in charge of the White Tower with a BA second is a Good Thing and orders the BA to support it.

Alviarin actually would have tried to take control, which the rest of the black sitters probably wouldnt have supported due to the cultivation of selfishness among the shadow, so Mesaana likely organized them into allowing the deposition of Siuan