Channeling one-handed

[Wolfwalker]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet (if so, sorry! :oops: I'm fairly new to this site).

I forgot which book it was in, but it was mentioned that though hand motions are not require to make a weave work, once the channeler has learned the weave with a certain hand motion (i.e. throwing motion to make a fireball) they can't do the weave without it. And, that it is rare for someone to be able learn a different way of doing a weave they already know.

 

So, what are people's thought on how difficult it will be for Rand to channel his weaves with only one hand? I'm not sure how many of his weaves required that hand, but I remember some used both hands.

[Taishar Manetheren]

He can still do the hand motions, he just doesnt have a hand. Use your imagination.

 

Besides, i remember him saying that he still felt his hand tough it wasnt there, so maybe it wont bother him.

 

Or maybe he will just learn to do without, he is the Dragon reborn he has no choise.

[Intrepid_Hero]

He could just discover how to weave without using hand motions, it would be someting the dragon reborn could use at TG the forsaken would not know he was weaving till it was to late.

[Gentled Ben]

I don't think TG will be a matter of channeling, that is, I don't think Rand will duel the DO that way. I know he's big channeler on campus, but seriously, the DO would wipe him up like a spill on the kitchen table. I think he needs to be a channeler, although I'm not sure why yet, and clearly, his blood needs to be spilled on the rocks at Shayol Ghul in order for the world to survive the last battle, but I honestly don't see him going toe-to -toe with the DO, exchanging awesome weaves with him in a fight to the finish, like some kind of cowboy shootout in front of the saloon in an old western movie.

 

That being said, I wonder if he can only "shoot" fifty Arrows of Fire at a time now, instead of 100 (ten from each finger, remember)?

[Guest cwestervelt]

In and of themselves, hand gestures are not necessary for Channelling. They only become necessary because weaves impress themselves on the Channeller. Once an Aes Sedai learns to do something in a particular way, it is difficult or impossible to do it another way effectively. (Illustrated by Aviendha and Gateways.) Hand gestures are part of that impressing. One of the Aes Sedai even comments on how you can tell which Sisters learned what from whom by the gestures they make.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which means if Rand learned a weave that involved gesturing with his now missing hand, he may have trouble using that weave.

[Gentled Ben]

Which means if Rand learned a weave that involved gesturing with his now missing hand, he may have trouble using that weave.

 

Exactly, and LTT "taught" him that weave. I think the lesson began with "My hands! I need to raise my hands!"

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis: Which means if Rand learned a weave that involved gesturing with his now missing hand, he may have trouble using that weave.

 

If it was one that he already knew that would be true. It shouldn't prevent him from learning and using new ones though. He could learn it the correct way, sans-gesture.

[Wolfwalker]

RobertAlexWillis: Which means if Rand learned a weave that involved gesturing with his now missing hand' date=' he may have trouble using that weave.[/quote']

 

If it was one that he already knew that would be true. It shouldn't prevent him from learning and using new ones though. He could learn it the correct way, sans-gesture.

 

Exactly what I was thinking- the weaves he already knows he might even not be able to do at all (depending on the gestures he learned) or they would be limited. Arrows of Fire is a good example- (thanks Gentled Ben). I'm thinking he would only be able to shoot five now.

[Gentled Ben]

Arrows of Fire is a good example- (thanks Gentled Ben). I'm thinking he would only be able to shoot five now.

 

Are you sure? I thought it was ten arrows per finger. And yay! Another DMer from...oh, nope, wait, can't go there again after the last debacle...(long story)

[Wolfwalker]

Arrows of Fire is a good example- (thanks Gentled Ben). I'm thinking he would only be able to shoot five now.

 

Are you sure? I thought it was ten arrows per finger. And yay! Another DMer from...oh' date=' nope, wait, can't go there again after the last debacle...(long story)[/quote']

 

Oops. :oops: I think you're right- that's what I meant anyway. That he'd just be able to use the fingers he's got.

[KaptainKaos]

ROFL, Ben I remember the last time you said that... oh man still laughing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If it was one that he already knew that would be true. It shouldn't prevent him from learning and using new ones though. He could learn it the correct way, sans-gesture.

 

Correct. My statement was in response to the initial question, which specifically references weaves already learned. Also, it is worth considering that if he learns even a new weave from Lews Therin's memories, and Lews Therin learned it with a hand gesture (like Arrows of Fire, which have already been mentioned) the strictures on re-learning the same weave without gestures may apply.

 

And yes, it is ten Arrows of Fire per finger (see p. 412 of Knife of Dreams, in chapter 19, Vows, where Rand kills a Myrdraal in the attack with 100 Arrows of Fire since he still has 10 fingers), so he is down to 50 now ... I think 50 will do for most things though.

[Xeonicus]

If it was one that he already knew that would be true. It shouldn't prevent him from learning and using new ones though. He could learn it the correct way, sans-gesture.

 

Correct. My statement was in response to the initial question, which specifically references weaves already learned. Also, it is worth considering that if he learns even a new weave from Lews Therin's memories, and Lews Therin learned it with a hand gesture (like Arrows of Fire, which have already been mentioned) the strictures on re-learning the same weave without gestures may apply.

 

And yes, it is ten Arrows of Fire per finger (see p. 412 of Knife of Dreams, in chapter 19, Vows, where Rand kills a Myrdraal in the attack with 100 Arrows of Fire since he still has 10 fingers), so he is down to 50 now ... I think 50 will do for most things though.

 

Or maybe LLT will use Rand's arm stump like a plasma cannon, a la Megaman style....

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe Elayne can make a ter'angreal hand for him that does lots of stuff. Rand al'Thor could be the source for our Inspector Gadget myths.

 

 

Go, go Gadget Balefire!

[Gentled Ben]

ROFL, Ben I remember the last time you said that... oh man still laughing.

Oh God, me too! That was like a bad, cyber version of "who's on first?" We're lucky Maj didn't lock the topic.

 

I think 50 will do for most things though.

Oh, for sure, especially if he gets the gadget balefire cannon. :lol: You're all about Inspector Gadget this week, aren't you? You cracked me up in a different thread with a similar comment today, too.

[skalors3]

You are referring to a chapter in POD. I think that it is a skill that has been lost but will be rediscovered soon enough. If you remember in the TSR (I think), Rand dod most of his channeling without the hand motions. Especially that nasty little storm in the Stone of Tear.

 

Before he lost his hand, he cast those bad ass finger missiles but he didn't use his fingers to weave the spell, just to control the direction.

 

It is my thoughts that a weave can be made without hand gestures, however controlling the flows is where they are failing. Such as the example used in POD where a women could not launch a fireball without throwing the weave herself. It may be because most people who can channel are unable to handle so many different weaves. However, my theory has always been if they used an air weave to propel whatever other weave they had created or to simply move the weaves, it would work the same without hand motions.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's all in how a weave was learned. The Seanchan damane cast fireballs aplenty without hand motions.

[skalors3]

No, I think it goes more with what wasn't learned while learning the weave. You are implying that no Aes Sedai could cast the weave without hand motions if she learned the weave using hand motions. That is non-sensical.

 

Just because they never learned how to do it, it doesn't mean that it can't be done. For all you know, the Seachan may in fact do what I suggested earlier. Aes Sedai weave the only way they know how. That is the bottom line. If this issue was moot, RJ would have never mentioned it. Unfortunately, it may remain an unanswered question if it isn't addressed in the final book of this series.

[akuhn]

i agree with rand learning how to channel w/out his hand but i vagly remember the sister saying once you learn one one of channelling it's very hard relearning it another way (refering to the kin i believe) not sure but a thought :?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Any pitcher can learn the curveball. Many never bother to try because their fastball and changeup are all they need.

 

Most AS wouldn't even think to try to cast a spell other than how they learned it. Why take a chance of catastrophe because you're concentrating on the wrong thing at the wrong time? Do it the way grammaw taughtcha and forget about them dangerous newfangled notions.

 

The AS are sticklers for tradition. Things are done a certain way because ( so far as they know in their ignorance ) they've always been done that way.

[akuhn]

i'll agree with you on that aspect, put in that light but do we have enough time for rand to learn new ways of channeling things he already knew, when he has some much going on now

[KaptainKaos]

To come up with an answer to this question you have to connect two facts: Rand can still feel his hand and fingers even though they are no longer fully there. Plus channeling is pretty much limited only by the constraints of your mind (if you don't think it can be done most of the time it can't simply because you don't believe it can. Example: almost everything the Aes Sedai 'know'.) When you put these two together you get Rand still feeling his hand and fingers as if they are still there and him having to use the 'imaginary' hand and fingers to do certain weaves, doesn't seem like it will be much of a problem.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand can still feel his hand and fingers even though they are no longer fully there.

 

Feeling body parts that have been removed is a common phenomenon among amputees, especially feeling "phantom pain". But Rand knows intellectually that his hand is gone, and channeling already learned weaves takes place on the conscious level ... I doubt he will be able to create weaves that would under other circumstances require his hand to be there just because of the "phantom limb" sensation.

 

That is, of course, just my opinion. As is this; its a relatively moot point anyway ... most of what he'll have to do at Tarmon Gai'don will be stuff he's not done before, I imagine, so the gesture learning block won't affect any of the new weaves he has to learn/create.

[Mat is the Boss]

As far as I can remember, it`s only Arrows of Fire that he uses his left hand to weave, and I don`t think Rand will bother fighting trollocs during the Last Battle. I doubt it will cause him any problems, more likely be a distraction.