What Salvation does everyone seem to swear on?

[IAmTheDragonReborn]

"By the light and my salvation and rebirth I swear.."

 

So I've been reading the books over again and it struck me that I didn't know what all these people were swearing to. The creator in WoT isn't worshiped as a God. While he is often called upon as "Light!" and a myriad of other sayings.

 

So my question is if the Creator packed up his bags and moved onto the next world on his checklist... why all this non-sense of salvation? What happens to someone that loses his salvation. I don't believe there's an equivalent of hell in WoT. Or does the darkone get to shove pineapples up their bum everyday at 2am and 1pm?

 

Or is there salvation connected with their rebirth?

 

Anyway Just wondering bout your thoughts.

 

P.S. Seeing as this might call our own faiths into this discussion lets all play nice.

[yoniy0]

Look what seemed to have happened to Kari Al'Thor. It's not a given that everyone gets to shelter in the Light.

[Suttree]

Look what seemed to have happened to Kari Al'Thor. It's not a given that everyone gets to shelter in the Light.

 

Did we ever get a definitive answer for what happened there?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

the salvation and rebirth of their souls. what could be worth more to anyone than his hope for eternal life vs eternal death? risking one's soul is risking one's personal immortality. it would be unthinkable to any but a darkfriend to break such an oath. like swearing on your <insert beloved relative's grave or your own favorite body part here>. you swear on that which all present would believe you unable to risk by lying or oathbreaking.

[Nightstrike]

Lord of Chaos (chapter 6, threads woven of shadow):

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?

RJ: No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but . . .

Q [interrupts]: Oh, is that a spoiler?? No no!

RJ: No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever . . . but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around . . . performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.

Q: But the Creator does not interfere!

RJ: The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.

Q: Of the unseen.

RJ: Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead—and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say 'In the name of' and lay their hand on you. 'In the name of God, be healed,' and your wounds are healed; or, 'In the name of God, rise up and walk,' and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks—I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.

 

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

Q: (paraphrased) Is the DO pure TP? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of TEotW?

RJ: No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

[Nightstrike]

Since the Creator created the Wheel with a sort of self-adjusting mechanism built in (the most advanced AI one can imagine, or something like that), then I'd think the Creator has seen to the needs of the souls in the Wheel.

 

Also, there's an "ordinary afterlife" for the souls. Maybe that's for when the Wheel is finally ended (if one believes it ever will be)?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

in this story, it's possible for people to forswear their allegiance to the light, and to the salvation and rebirth offered by the light, and to, instead, try to make a deal for a different sort of immortality, with the dark one.

 

by swearing by the light and their hope of salvation and rebirth, WOT-people are saying, in essence, that if they break the oath they're making, they are giving up their light allegiance and their hope of salvation and rebirth by the grace of the light, and are up for grabs to the dark one for whatever he wants to do with their souls forever.

 

which would be, except to a dark-friend, a bad thing.

 

(i think the "ordinary afterlife" is one attained after many transmigrations/reincarnations and much spiritual enlightenment lead to ascension of the soul to a higher plane of existence. or not.)

[randsc]

I am convinced, quite positive in fact, that this is one of those instances where Jordan wrote something he thought sounded cool, and then made up the backstory on the spot when someone asked about it.

[Muad Cheade]

I am convinced, quite positive in fact, that this is one of those instances where Jordan wrote something he thought sounded cool, and then made up the backstory on the spot when someone asked about it.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

[randsc]

I am convinced, quite positive in fact, that this is one of those instances where Jordan wrote something he thought sounded cool, and then made up the backstory on the spot when someone asked about it.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

 

You don't deny he did this, surely? Someone, I think Terez, referred in another thread to Jordan's, "World-building from the signing table." Which is dead on.

[Feral]

It could refer to what happens to souls between lives. Like maybe there is some sort of temporary Afterlife?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i believe RJ was a fairly spritual man. not just traditionally religious. i think that what he said about salvation and rebirth is a core WOT value.

[threadnecromancer]

"No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent"

 

What does he mean by that>

[randsc]

It makes sense that there is no religion and no churches, in a world where your metaphysics is objectively observable, laid out before your eyes.

[idiostock]

I read that as he'd intended to write another series after completing WoT, but then he died.

[Ogrelin]

This is not really on topic.

 

This may bave been talked of over and over...I haven't read the about it though...so here goes.

 

Seeing those quotes from RJ made me think of the unseen watchers in the dreamworld... what if the dreams the dreamers have are from the Creator? Perhaps he's there and he's the watcher?

 

Perhaps the creator have more influence over the dreamworld and is able to send "prophecies" or the like thru the dreamers as messages to the people inside his creation?

 

If the confrontation between Rand and Ishy (end of book one) took place in the dreamworld the creator MAY have been able to speak to Rand (the stairs and the mist being some kind of portal to the dreamworld)

[yoniy0]

Those were Skimming Gateways and platforms, but they could lead to TAR easily enough, I guess.

 

And regarding religion, RJ intentionally didn't include organized religions in his world, for precisely the reason mentioned above. You could say that there was a religion in Randland - that of believing in the Light and the Creator.

[Zentari]

 

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

That is SO up in the air.So the creator's reason for allowing the suffering is his ego ?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

That is SO up in the air.So the creator's reason for allowing the suffering is his ego ?

 

it points to His perfection, omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.

 

which begs the question of how or why the DO would exist, or have any power to overcome the force of creation.

 

no idea on that one.

[Zentari]

which begs the question of how or why the DO would exist, or have any power to overcome the force of creation.

EXACTLY.Not to mention that the world was not perfect even before the DO was set loose, making the whole point ludicrous.

[yoniy0]

What is a perfect world, anyway? One that exists in perfect harmony? What about overcoming challenges, is that not necessary for sentient beings to be content? And what of free will, can a world be perfect without it? Perhaps the DO is part of Creation as well, given free will (and the potential to carry out that will) just like everyone else.

[Zentari]

What is a perfect world, anyway? One that exists in perfect harmony? What about overcoming challenges, is that not necessary for sentient beings to be content? And what of free will, can a world be perfect without it? Perhaps the DO is part of Creation as well, given free will (and the potential to carry out that will) just like everyone else.

Thing is the AoL was very nice but not perfect so it kinda defeats the whole Creator is perfect thing.Needing to overcome challenges is also up to the creator since he kinda made everything (dunno about evolution in WoT).The free will debate is as thorny as it gets as well because one can argue that it doesn't exist from the creator's standpoint, and it's also kinda laughable given the pattern as a whole.

[yoniy0]

I was demonstrating that perfection sometimes lies in strife rather than harmony. Suffering isn't the measure of the Creation's perfection or lack thereof.

 

And that's from an atheist.

[Zentari]

Suffering isn't the measure of the Creation's perfection or lack thereof.

I agree to disagree.Especially given how the DO is the antithesis of the Creator and thus the creator should be benevolent.

Also , one would assume that perfection breeds harmony since everything is balanced.If it must be achieved through strife or can't be achieved at all we come back to my argument.

 

Also this is a nice example of what happens in WoT..Just replace angels with the pattern.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

creation may be perfect in the WOT, in that it may be functioning exactly as intended by its creator (not that it would be considered a perfect world by any human standard). it may, in the fullness of time, play out. . . perfectly.

 

but the idea that anyone or anything could accomplish anything outside the will or intention of the creator seems to be a logical flaw.

 

unless we are to discover that the DO does not exist, or that he lacks any power to oppose creation or defy the creator, and that it's all been a horrible misunderstanding.

 

i am not expecting that ending, but it would explain a lot.