Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[Puny]

Yeah, and the argument collapses at the point where the Champion of Light question dealt with what Ishamael said to Rand (which didn't include the terminology). So the statement refers to Rand's soul either way. Add that to the fact that Brandon has said that Rand's and Ishamael's souls are often woven together kinda like Birgitte and Gaidal are. I wonder if they would be destined to meet in Ages when the Dark One is forgotten and tightly locked up.

 

So, Rand is always the Champion. At first when RJ was asked about the female Dragon, he said he never intended to explore that. And then I think he realized that the women were annoyed that a woman could never be the savior of mankind, so he threw in the hero seen at Falme, whoever she was. From RJ's perspective, I'm thinking he figured that being the savior of mankind was a job no sane person would actually want, so he didn't see it as being terribly sexist that it was always a man. I think he felt the same way about soldiering for the most part, as it made clear time and again in Rand's approach to dealing with everything from Deira to the Maidens, and even Lanfear. And then you have Elayne's Guards.

 

I always thought that that side of Rand, not accepting or being reluctant to accept female soldiers or women dying for him was colored by RJ:s own experience when he was a soldier.

[Terez]

I don't understand why any of you are taking Rand's statements for fact. They were made in the second book, at which time Rand knew pretty much nothing about the DR, and he has yet to hear voices from LTT. His denial that the DR's soul has never turned to the shadow are the same as Luke's denial that Vader was his father... The DR and the Champion of the Light are the same soul. That being said doesn't mean that there aren't other souls that fight the shadow near the same level that the DR's soul fights, but is not the same soul. You guys are fighting over semantics...

 

I think I must reread that part cause I was sure that Rand had a flashback/vision of all his lifes, thus making him certain.

He didn't. However, there was a very similar moment when he said to Lanfear (in TSR ch. 9) 'And you loved power!', and he somehow knew that it was true. He also had a similar feeling about the heroes at Falme, but neither moment involved a flashback, exactly. In Falme he remembered alternate names for the heroes in addition to the names they bore in the legends he was familiar with (the same names changed by time, in reference to the same life).

 

I know that the DR soul and the CoL can are the same soul, but I also think that the are other CoL besides the DR soul.

All of the evidence shows otherwise.

[Barid Bel Medar]

My understanding of it:

 

Rand's soul = Champion of Light (or whatever you want to call it)

 

Dragon= LTT title. NOT the Champion of Light's title. The Dragon was a political title givcen to LTT in the AoL. (Graendal says if LTT wasnt born, Demandred would have been the Dragon.) (If the Dragon was the name of the soul, LTT would be the Dragon Reborn, Rand the Dragon RebornReborn etc...)

 

So the champion of Light is always Rand's soul. That does not mean that other heroes are not spun out to fight against the Shadow, just that when the DO needs to actually be sealed up, Rand's soul is spun out.

[Puny]

Then I guess this is all semantics lol.

If Rand´s soul is supposed to fight the Dark One again and again I guess you can call him the Champion of Light, but my ...point is, that there are other Heroes that can fight the Dark One as well and seal him away... say Amatseru. Is she also THE Champion of the Light or is she more champion of the Light?

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes, that's kind of what I was thinking. It Rand was turned there are others who could take on the role and be a champion, without the Wheel making them the Champion. For instance, if Rand's soul is always the Champion, when he has been turned to the Shadow in the past there must have been someone who took up the role as leader of the Light or whatever, I guess, because in that scenario we get the draw.

 

Which all means my original question still stands, if Rand is always the Champion. How do we get a draw if he is turned?

[coolpool]

My understanding of it:

 

Rand's soul = Champion of Light (or whatever you want to call it)

 

Dragon= LTT title. NOT the Champion of Light's title. The Dragon was a political title givcen to LTT in the AoL. (Graendal says if LTT wasnt born, Demandred would have been the Dragon.) (If the Dragon was the name of the soul, LTT would be the Dragon Reborn, Rand the Dragon RebornReborn etc...)

 

So the champion of Light is always Rand's soul. That does not mean that other heroes are not spun out to fight against the Shadow, just that when the DO needs to actually be sealed up, Rand's soul is spun out.

 

I don't think thats right that rands soul is always the champion of the light. It condradicts what RJ has said which is (got the quotes from previous postings so soz for the repeting..)

 

"Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes."

 

i think we can assume that hero of the light means chapion of the light. So RJ is saying that the hero of the light has gone over, that ishy isn't lying, so when Ishy told rand that in the past the champion of the light had gone over to the shadow, he was telling the truth, but was twisting rands limited perspective into thinking that he is the only champion of the light implying ishy is talking about his soul when infact ishy is talking about other souls and other champions of the light so just to repete (soz, repeting helps he structure my responses so bear with me)the question asks about the hero of light, not about rands soul and so it means that RJ isn't defenatly an about rands soul.... AND it cant be rands soul hes on about anyway as RJ says

 

"Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!"

 

So RJ is saying that rands soul hasn't been turned and then raised as the shadows champion, that ishy is lying but earliy said that The hero of the light has served the dark in the past. Also i think it was in TGS, that Rand says he has never served the dark ever in his past to moirdin so If rand is the only Champion of the light then he must have served the dark in the past as RJ clearly says that ishy is telling the truth but RJ said that rands soul hasn't served the dark and rand even remebers in that weird dream thing that he has never served the dark.. so these two things condradict.. and the only way for them to make sence is if there are different chapmions of the light. Just look at the way RJ said the first qouate... ishy was telling the truth to serve his purpose but... it sounds like an aes sedai answer.. the truth that rands hears may not be the true ishy is on about

 

i tried to explain what i thought yesterday but i couldn't describe what i was thinking, my head was frazzled so soz... and i hope i explained it better now...

 

just one more thing.... no wonder the DO wants to turn him to the dark because rands soul has never served the dark before and if the DO managed to turn him then the consequences would be awful as this has never happened before.. just look what would have happened at VoG if rand did serve the dark (involentary). He would have destroyed the world!!!!

[st122]

My understanding of it:

 

Rand's soul = Champion of Light (or whatever you want to call it)

 

Dragon= LTT title. NOT the Champion of Light's title. The Dragon was a political title givcen to LTT in the AoL. (Graendal says if LTT wasnt born, Demandred would have been the Dragon.) (If the Dragon was the name of the soul, LTT would be the Dragon Reborn, Rand the Dragon RebornReborn etc...)

 

So the champion of Light is always Rand's soul. That does not mean that other heroes are not spun out to fight against the Shadow, just that when the DO needs to actually be sealed up, Rand's soul is spun out.

 

I don't think thats right that rands soul is always the champion of the light. It condradicts what RJ has said which is (got the quotes from previous postings so soz for the repeting..)

 

"Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes."

 

i think we can assume that hero of the light means chapion of the light. So RJ is saying that the hero of the light has gone over, that ishy isn't lying, so when Ishy told rand that in the past the champion of the light had gone over to the shadow, he was telling the truth, but was twisting rands limited perspective into thinking that he is the only champion of the light implying ishy is talking about his soul when infact ishy is talking about other souls and other champions of the light so just to repete (soz, repeting helps he structure my responses so bear with me)the question asks about the hero of light, not about rands soul and so it means that RJ isn't defenatly an about rands soul.... AND it cant be rands soul hes on about anyway as RJ says

 

"Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!"

 

So RJ is saying that rands soul hasn't been turned and then raised as the shadows champion, that ishy is lying but earliy said that The hero of the light has served the dark in the past. Also i think it was in TGS, that Rand says he has never served the dark ever in his past to moirdin so If rand is the only Champion of the light then he must have served the dark in the past as RJ clearly says that ishy is telling the truth but RJ said that rands soul hasn't served the dark and rand even remebers in that weird dream thing that he has never served the dark.. so these two things condradict.. and the only way for them to make sence is if there are different chapmions of the light. Just look at the way RJ said the first qouate... ishy was telling the truth to serve his purpose but... it sounds like an aes sedai answer.. the truth that rands hears may not be the true ishy is on about

 

i tried to explain what i thought yesterday but i couldn't describe what i was thinking, my head was frazzled so soz... and i hope i explained it better now...

 

just one more thing.... no wonder the DO wants to turn him to the dark because rands soul has never served the dark before and if the DO managed to turn him then the consequences would be awful as this has never happened before.. just look what would have happened at VoG if rand did serve the dark (involentary). He would have destroyed the world!!!!

 

Thats exactly the way I see it.

[yoniy0]

Yes, there's definitely the possibility that RJ was playing with words there, never mind that Ishamael was actually talking about Rand's soul and not a generic Champion. I don't personally believe he was, but I don't like people denying that the possibility exists.

[Barid Bel Medar]

As yoniy0 said, Ishamael was not lying, and he wasnt talking about a "Champion of Light", that is only what the fandom nammed it.

 

RJ said Ishamael was not lying.

 

Ishamael said that Rand's soul had served the Dark before, not that a "Champion of Light" had gone over.

 

 

I would write up a whole thing, but to be honest, I am not that bothered. I know that I could well be wrong.

 

Anyway, I shall leave it with this quote from RJ.

 

scifi.com chat 1 January 2000

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

 

When talking about Rand nothing is ever simple. We could both be wrong, hell, we could even both be right in some strange twist of the pattern.

[yoniy0]

Barid, you seemed to have misrepresented my position there. On purpose?

Again, RJ simply answered 'no' to what he was asked, with the addition that "sometimes even liars tell the truth". Therefore the wording of the question itself could matter, if we're to assume RJ's response an AS one (which he did give at times). As I said, I find that interpretation farfetched, but still valid.

[Terez]

yoniy0, I don't see how you believe there is room for interpretation here. Someone asked if Ishamael was lying, and he said no. Simple as that. It would have been disingenuous in the extreme for him to answer 'no' to a question if he was using the terminology loophole because in that case the question didn't refer to a real event at all.

[yoniy0]

You must at least partially understand it, because you refrain from quoting the entire question. That someone asked whether Ishamael was lying in saying that the CoL has turned to the Shadow before (emphasis mine). As such, it's conceivable that RJ answered 'no' as if to say "no, he wasn't lying in that".

[coolpool]

i didn't deny that the possibility that it didn't exsist yoniy0 (in the begining anyway as i was building up my argument.) i said "so it means that RJ isn't defenatly an about rands soul" ignoring the bad grammer (soz about that btw i really cant spell ) i said that he isn't definatly on about rand soul and what i meant is that he might be talking about someone elses soul instead of rands as it isn't definate that he is on about rand but that means that he isn't definatly on about other CoL... so i did leave the possibility there while writing it.. But after that youre right, i didn't really write about both sides cos i thought i made my point about the contradtion of the two statments that if RJ was saying that rand has gone to the shadow then the latter quote contradicts it, so i didn't think it was worth mentchoning.. but in intrests of the other side of the discussion...

 

...if we go on what you said, so that i am covering the other meaning of what RJ is saying, then RJ is saying that rand has gone over to the dark before as the lights champion. Ishy is telling the truth and rand can be converted... however when someone asks RJ (again soz for the repete) "Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!"

 

now i think this is indication that RJ is saying that it is silly to believe anything ishy is saying implying that ishy is lying about LLT becoming the shadows champion. Now looking at it from the other side you could say that RJ avoided the question by not answering directly or that he is action/toying with us... or that it is open to interpretation, like all things authors say... that means that the posiblility of rand always being the CoL is Valid.

 

so now thats covered i'll look at other evidence that will imply what RJ was on about with the first quote about ishy telling the truth.

 

Firstly, Rj stated that when the CoL goes over to the dark side it ends with a draw... (again, nicking a quote i saw yesterday.

 

"RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

 

firstly, why didn't he say "when rands soul has gone over to the shadow". if he did the discussion done rand is the only CoL but he didn't.

 

next if the DO knows that when the CoL goes to the dark it always ends in a draw, then why not kill Rand and get him out of the picture.. cos if rand turns to the shadow the DO wouldn't win as everytime the CoL has converted it is a draw, and the dark one wants to win not draw so why try converting rand if it will ultimatly result in him losing... that to me just doesn't make sense. Now looking on the otherside you could say that drawing for the DO would be better than loosing, as losing could mean longer in prizon, or death or never breaching prizon again(if that is even possibe) or you could argue that no-one can understand how the DO thinks, but the age will repete and he will touch the world again, thats the natture of the wheel, repeted history. Also Rj is implying that the light can win and has won in the past (though the battle goes on), cos if you can lose and draw, then there must be a win scenorio too and the light has won against the dark one in the past, as creation is still around and he has been free before, and if the light wins then that means the dark one looses the above statments about losing are nul as he does get out again...

 

sooo... back to the question, why all this wanting to convert rand if it will result in a draw??? now a draw will still be better than loosing but if rand follows what RJ said that whenever when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw." then by keeping rand alive when he could easliy have been killed by mordin in CoS, the DO will never win, he will just draw if he converts him and lose if he fails to convert him... but i think this is safe to assume but it is just an assumtion, that if rand was killed earlier, the DO has a much better chace of winning, and wouldn't it be better to take the gamble and kill rand and be more likely to win and if he still loses then so what... he can try again when the age comes again... than to just draw... that just doesn't seem logical as the DO can just try again if killing rand doesn't work but going for a draw will mean he will never win, the DO would go for the opertunity that offers a chance of him winning.. like anyone would.. all powerful or no, you go for the opertunity that gives you a chance for winning, not the opertunity that you will never win

 

(this is going to get more confusing and long winded as i try to explain what i mean so please bear with me....)

So this is why i think that the CoL can change and that rand has never been converted before because when rand was nearly converted in VoG the dark one wouldn't have drawed, he would have won as rand would have destroyed creation.. but relating this back what RJ said that when the "Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw." he didn't say it in future tense but past meaning that when the CoL has gone over it is a draw, he didn't say that if the Col goes over the result will always be a draw. This is relevent as it leaves the possibility that a converted CoL could cause a win, but just hasn't yet...

 

So why in the past has it always been a draw??? rand could have easily destroyed creation in VoG when he almost sucomed to the dark one...?? Looking at it on the other argument you could say.. he didn't have access to the chokeal... um.. powerfull sa'angrael, or the right resorses as it is a different age... but be honsat wiv me and your self, even if rand/the dragons soul.. went over to the shadow without sa'angreal, who could stand against him?? he has the resourses of the DO and he is super powerful so i think i can assume (tho again it is only a logical assumption, not fact) that if the dragon reborn ever when over, the dark one would be very certain to win. But if the dark one won, then end of creation. Also RJ said when the "Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw." so rands soul has either been really unlucky in the past and causes draws when converted, [which means that the DO wouldn't want to convert him as he will never win but instead draw or lose and so it would be better to kill him and have a chance of winning] or... it means that there are other CoL and that rand has never been converted when he is CoL (but the fact that the DO wants to convert him, to the point of saving his life rather than let him die via morinds rescue in CoS and possibley the TP use in TGS(but i'm skeptical with that theory of tepmtation with the TP and don't agree with in but others might agree with it so i'll include it to keep the posibilities open), which implies the dark one has a better chance of winning if rand is converted to him than rand being dead, and if rand was dead then the DO would have a quite good chance at winning so why gamble the chance of winning (with a draw if rand is the only CoL) unless the DO has an even better chance of winning if rand is alive and on his side???) the reason that seems most logical.. (keeping it open that the could be other posibilities ) is that Rand hasn't been converted when CoL. Look what happened when he nearly was converted at VoG...!! no wonder the DO gambled to convert him rather than let him be killed...

 

This also matches up with RJ two quotes using my intepretion of them, that Col have been converted in the past but never caused wins for the DO and that the dragons soul has never gone to the shadow...

 

now another posibility is that the dragon has been converted only a few times in comparison to the other CoL, but was unluckly and the DO wants to try again believing that it might work out and make him win.. or something like that.. but this doesn't match up with the thing RJ said about the dragon not going over to the DO, but if i interpteted it wrong then this posibility is still valid so i'm not going to ignore it...

 

i hope this has been a more fair aguement... i do look at over posibilites... and i am sorry for not including the other posibilities properly in the first agument i made.... like in the begining before reading this thread a did think rand had been converted in the past but what RJ said made me change my mind... and i hope i explained my self properlly... and soz if i just confused anyone.. i'm not a very good explainer i always over explain..

[Terez]

You must at least partially understand it, because you refrain from quoting the entire question.

Because the rest of it is irrelevant.

 

That someone asked whether Ishamael was lying in saying that the CoL has turned to the Shadow before (emphasis mine). As such, it's conceivable that RJ answered 'no' as if to say "no, he wasn't lying in that".

That would be disingenuous because Ishamael never said that. Therefore, it is not possible for RJ to give an Aes Sedai answer here because answering 'no' verifies that Ishamael said that in addition to verifying that he did not lie. Because the question says 'was he lying when he said that'.

[yoniy0]

i didn't deny that the possibility that it didn't exsist yoniy0

I'm actually on your side. Well, not completely because I don't buy into your premise, but insofar as I believe your argument viable and don't like to read folks denying that.

 

That would be disingenuous because Ishamael never said that. Therefore, it is not possible for RJ to give an Aes Sedai answer here because answering 'no' verifies that Ishamael said that in addition to verifying that he did not lie. Because the question says 'was he lying when he said that'.

Hmm, you might have me there. That's why I think the whole thing is contrived, but to say it's completely impossible... no, I'm not ready to do that just yet. By saying Rand went over Ishamael implied that the CoL has before, thus making the question viable, and RJ's answer along with it. You might think this interpretation unlikely in the extreme (after that last argument I tend to agree), but to say it's a non-argument... that's taking it too far, I think.

[DocBean]

I think there are multiple ways you can look at That Champion of Light's soul going to the Dark Side, and still not destroying the world.

 

1. The champion of the Dark side goes light. – Look at them as two sides of the same coin, always opposing each other, and always connected. Therefor, balancing each other out.

2. The Light side channelers make up the difference - If all the forces of good were to work together, then they could overpower CoL and the bad guys.

3. The Dark wins because of the COL switching sides, but the wheel isn't destroyed - therefore leaving the wheel to keep spinning.

 

RJ confirmed the third option to be possible. He said the bad guys have won before, but the result was a draw.

I personally look at that as strong evidence that the Dark One needs to die for him to get his way.

If the bad guys have taken over, and the wheel keeps on spinning, (which allows the good guys to work their way up from behind in a future age) then the Dark One still didn't get what he wanted.

 

If he won, and had complete control and freedom, why wouldn't he have destroyed the Wheel?

I don't think he has the power to do it. I think Rand is the only one with the power to destroy everything.

The only way I can see the Dark Forces winning, but the Dark One not getting his freedom, is if he was sealed up in such a way that they didn't know he existed,

or if they refused to let him out and chose to rule without his interference.

[coolpool]

lol i just did all that writing though not to convine you but because because i thought i was being made out be single minded by "denying other possibilities" cos you sorta made me sound a bit bigoted, which im not, so i just posted my full resoning that i couldn't be bothered to say the first time to show that i did consider them, that i consider the stuff i say before i form an opinion and say it but i just didn't write it on here cos, as you can see, it is long and confusing and i still don't quite think i explained what i meant properly...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

 

The only way I can see the Dark Forces winning, but the Dark One not getting his freedom, is if he was sealed up in such a way that they didn't know he existed,

or if they refused to let him out and chose to rule without his interference.

 

or if he's not quite as suicidal as he says/thinks he is? it's all well and good to say all is nothing and nothing must end, but when it comes down to it, maybe it's not any easier to use the razor than it was for christy brown?

[UncleButcher1980]

I just tweeted Brandon Sanderson about this and got a little giddy when he replied, I really wasn't expecting him to.

 

Anyway, his reply was "I believe that Ishy implies in the books he and Lews Therin have fought thousands of times. So at least one major character seems to believe it's always Rand. Whether he's right or not is another question."

 

So there you go.

[yoniy0]

I can't believe it! I twittered the same to him just the other day. And he hasn't answered yet.

[herid]

I can't believe it! I twittered the same to him just the other day. And he hasn't answer yet.

he gets lots and lots of tweets. just search for @BrandSanderson. I think he only reads those he gets while he is online.

[Vermillion]

I honestly think the quotes are just mistakes. Not hard to believe considering the scale of the story. I could see RJ say those quotes when he has nothing planned and the idea was given from the question. It's like saying, what would you do if you were dropped in the Antarctica. Not many people have plans for that but you could say something off the cuff.

 

I think that even if the champion turned the wheel would correct his actions and make him turn back or he'd inadvertently cause the DO to remain imprisoned or be killed.

 

It seems the conditions for winning are not straight forward or else why not have the forsaken or unwitting channelers just balefire everything and just wait out the the DO escape. Obvious the Wheel equation is the cause of all the posturing and chaos starting. I believe chaos is there to prevent the Wheel from organizing a defense. The Wheel needs to bring everything together with order and the DO is trying to scramble it to prevent the pattern with chaos.

[Erunion]

Huh, I always thought this was pretty clear cut - Rand is one of the Light's Champion's, one being him/LTT/Dragon, one being Ameresu (with the Sword of Light!). There may have been others. Indeed, it is possible that any of the Heroes of the Horn could become The Champion of the Light, depending on who the wheel thought would do the best job (but the Rand/LTT soul and the main female hero are the two that the wheel picks the most often).

In one age, at least, one of these heroes turned, but was unable to destroy the world. This hero, this Champion of the Light, was not the Rand'Al Thor/LTT soul. He (or she) was a different hero fulfilling the role of Champion of the Light. Ishamael, in a classic Aes Sedia fashion, twisted words and mixed in half-truths in order to get what he wanted.

[Suttree]

Huh, I always thought this was pretty clear cut - Rand is one of the Light's Champion's, one being him/LTT/Dragon, one being Ameresu (with the Sword of Light!). There may have been others. Indeed, it is possible that any of the Heroes of the Horn could become The Champion of the Light, depending on who the wheel thought would do the best job (but the Rand/LTT soul and the main female hero are the two that the wheel picks the most often).

In one age, at least, one of these heroes turned, but was unable to destroy the world. This hero, this Champion of the Light, was not the Rand'Al Thor/LTT soul. He (or she) was a different hero fulfilling the role of Champion of the Light. Ishamael, in a classic Aes Sedia fashion, twisted words and mixed in half-truths in order to get what he wanted.

 

That was my understanding as well, although there have been good points made on both sides throughout this thread...

[Nightstrike]

Since the poll didn't specify what we're talking about, I could have answered both yes and no. Any definition of the words, or what Ishy talked with Rand about?