Light Vs Dark - A Draw?

[Suttree]

Nightstrike you do realize you are the only one in this topic interpreting the situation that way. Regardless of whose right doesn't that make you understand it's not as clear cut as you are making it out to be?

Only one posting with a certain position doesn't make it wrong. I think it's pretty clear cut.

 

Clear cut while ignoring the evidence from Rand and RJ that speak against it? Yeah I guess everything is clear cut when you just pick and choose.

[Nightstrike]

Clear cut while ignoring the evidence from Rand and RJ that speak against it? Yeah I guess everything is clear cut when you just pick and choose.

What evidence from Rand? What evidence from RJ?

[Suttree]

Clear cut while ignoring the evidence from Rand and RJ that speak against it? Yeah I guess everything is clear cut when you just pick and choose.

What evidence from Rand? What evidence from RJ?

 

See what I mean?

[Nightstrike]

Rand didn't know about it in the second book, he was just assuming things that the knew nothing about.

 

RJ has never said that Ishy lied to Rand about it. Never. RJ said that Ishy told Rand the truth.

[Fbombs]

Rand said he was sure about it.

[Suttree]

Suttree: Do you mean that RJ expressed increduality that LTT had gone over... but saying that in previous ages CoL had gone over to the Shadow, meaning that the dragon soul isn´t necessary the CoL always?

I confess I am somewhat confused... =/

 

Yes I am saying that the CoL and the "Dragon Soul" aren't always one and the same.

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

This is the only time the question was asked specifically about LTT and not just the generic CoL and the only time it was answered indicating Ishy was lying. RJ in this answer expresses incredulity that someone would believe Ishy saying LTT has gone over.

 

Two years earlier we had this...

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Notice it mentions "Hero of the Light" but not Dragon or LTT. So Ishy could be correct in that the CoL has gone over while LYING about the Dragon/LTT/Rand having done so. A perfect RJ answer to that question.

 

Finally we have Rand in TGH saying he knew in all his past lives that he never turned to the shadow.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, yes, I know you're trying to infer things from the phrasing of the question. But what was the question about - it was about Ishy's conversation with Rand. I've quoted it.

 

 

 

Finally we have Rand in TGH saying he knew in all his past lives that he never turned to the shadow.

But he didn't know it in book 2.

[Fbombs]

Wasn't that before Ba'alzamon even narrowed down who he was looking for between Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

[Nightstrike]

Does it matter when Ishy said that the Dragon soul had gone over? Sammael knew it about it too, so he must have talked about it more than once.

[Fbombs]

Well if he didn't even say Dragon, or as far as he knew, even made that statement to the right soul in the first place then I don't see how you can claim he meant the Dragon has gone over and the Dragon is the only CoL ever.

[Nightstrike]

Well if he didn't even say Dragon, or as far as he knew, even made that statement to the right soul in the first place then I don't see how you can claim he meant the Dragon has gone over and the Dragon is the only CoL ever.

He was referring to the Dragon soul, that is clear from all the quotes I've given. Sammael thought about it later on, too, in reference to LTT/Rand/the Dragon soul.

[Fbombs]

nope

[Nightstrike]

Sammael's POV (LoC, 6):

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

---> makes it clear what Ishy talked about.

[Fbombs]

That just says LTT had bee the creator's champion, had been efforts to turn him, not that LTT's soul was always the creator's champion.

[Nightstrike]

That just says LTT had bee the creator's champion, had been efforts to turn him, not that LTT's soul was always the creator's champion.

Creator's champion=Light's champion And it also mentions making him become the Shadow's champion. The Dark One=the Shadow. All in this context, naturally.

[Suttree]

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

---> makes it clear what Ishy talked about.

 

You are making a big leap here and that is where your entire argument falls apart. There is nothing that says LTT and the CoL are always the same.

 

Regardless nothing new is being said we should let this thread get back on topic. Let's see what the results of the poll are and move the topic over.

[Fbombs]

[Removed]

[Nightstrike]

It's clear what the fan referred to. The fan that phrased the question.

 

Seriously, it's not even RJ's phrasing you're turning into something important.

[Nightstrike]

Who is the one Ishy has fought since the creation? The one he tried to turn to the shadow? It's the Dragon soul.

 

 

You are making a big leap here and that is where your entire argument falls apart. There is nothing that says LTT and the CoL are always the same.

The Champion of the Light=the Creator's champion. It's the phrasing of the one who asked the question, not RJ himself.

 

 

[Removed]

Funny you should say that. I tested myself recently. (And, no, I'm far from dumb.)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

First, you're right. RJ said as much: "In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw." (Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting). He doesn't say that it must, only that it has.

 

i'm not sure if anyone ever posted the rest of that quote, or maybe a slightly longer version of it, but it may shed some light on the OP.

 

anyway, the quote i found at theoryland is a little more specific re why we know the light has never lost, so far:

 

"RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

 

though we may not know how it's happened in the past that we came to a draw, we do know that if we had actually lost to the dark, the world would have ceased to exist.

 

just because the champion turns to the dark doesn't necessarily mean the dark one succeeds in his ambition to unmake the pattern. so that would be a draw. world ruled by shadowspawn and dreadlords, but world still exists. yucky, dark world, but world, still.

[Nightstrike]

though we may not know how it's happened in the past that we came to a draw, we do know that if we had actually lost to the dark, the world would have ceased to exist.

Yes, I agree. The champion was turned, but it wasn't a complete victory for the Dark One.

[UncleButcher1980]

Wow, this thread has gone a bit haywire since I last checked. Some interesting stuff, though not always elegantly put. I like the idea of the Dragon soul and the Champion of the Light not always being the same, mainly as it does give a logical answer to my original question. I still can't quite get my head around how a draw would pan out though. What would the world be like from the end of that Age (assuming the draw ended the Age) until the next?

 

It does open up more questions though. If Rand is right that he, the Dragon soul, has never gone over to the Shadow, and knowing as we do that the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past, then which came first in that Age? Was the Dragon soul spun out because the Champion of the Light went over? Were they both around at the same time? Ha, I can feel my brain going fuzzy already.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

What would the world be like from the end of that Age (assuming the draw ended the Age) until the next?

 

 

just guessing. . . like a dark age? an age of plagues and famines and monsters and fear?

 

like an ice age? a volcanic age? an age of meteoric impacts or nuclear winters?

 

i could see a lot of different kinds of lightless scenarios, now that i think of it.

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes, good examples there. And thinking about it, maybe the end of the last Age could almost be thought of as a draw, with saidin tainted and the world broken.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

true. if it was a win, it wasn't by very much.