Betrayed w/ a kiss

[Niniel]

please add option "none". That would be my vote. I don't see anybody betraying Rand. Rand's character has many mythological parallels and Jesus is only a part of them. RJ even said so himself

How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus Christ is Rand?

 

Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Rand's and Jesus's stories have very few details in common. why do you think that this particular one will play out?

 

I think it's just the idea. In tons of stories does the main character get betrayed. Heck I can think of about 10 off the top of my head.

 

 

Lord of the Rings - Saruman

Jesus - Judas

Mists of Avalon - Lancelot

Gates of Fire (300 Spartans) - Can't remember the name

Inheritance Cycle - Murtagh

Harry Potter - Snape

Half of the Shakespear plays..

 

List goes on and on. Hasn't seem to happen yet in WoT so we can still speculate, but that's not saying that it is in fact going to happen.

 

Don´t know if you have finished all those books. If you haven´t I wont tell you wich one, but one of those characters never betrayd the good side.

 

 

Don´t know if someone will betray Rand. Maybe he will rescue Mierin and trust her and then she will betray him. It could be Bashere or Alanna. Don´t think Alanna is a DF but maybe she will manipulated by someone else to betray Rand?

[Terez]

There are some interesting parallels between Mat and Judas, not least the hanging and Rand saving him 'with a kiss', and of course the foreshadowing of betrayal in TGH.

 

I missed that completely when reading :( Can you tell me which chapter?

 

Chapter 37 - What Might Be

[Didgya]

Egwene-betray Rand for his own good (to her thinking) yet he knows and stops it immediately. (making it a non issue)

OR

Eqwene- it already is happening with her trying to raise forces to stop Rand, playing right into his hand by "betraying" him.

 

All I know is that Moridin will be pissed if Hope gets betrayed!

[MarkDiLillo]

I don't really see this happening. Mostly because to correctly parallel Judas it will ruin the character forever and essentially damn them. I don't see RJ wanting to ruin Mat or one of the girls, and I don't see any other characters being important enough or having a close enough relationship with Rand for a "betray with a kiss" scenario.

[Terez]

Like I said, the kiss element is worked in already, and it's hardly a direct parallels. RJ's parallels never are. So, nothing's going to ruin any characters, any more than the Odin parallels ruined Mat's character.

[Hael Me]

My vote: "other". Well, the Others are always an evil group... :)

 

Of course, Rand will be betrayed. As Lews Therin was, by some of his most trusted generals, Barid Bel Medar & Tel Janin Aellinsar among others.

My candidate for the title of Randland Judas: Mazrim Taim. A dead giveaway, I know. Rand has never trusted him, true, and we, the readers, have been pretty convinced that The M'hael is a villain and a darkfriend. But the people of Randland in general doesn't know that. Logain is convinced, but apart from him, people tend to think that Taim is one of Rand's most trusted men, a disciple of sorts obeying the orders of The Dragon Reborn. They will consider Taim turning against Rand as a dark act of betrayal.

 

A couple of books ago I always thought it would be Mat that betrayed Rand, and maybe even Rand will see Mat as a traitor for a short period of time, when he finds out that Mat has married The Empress, an enemy of Rand...

 

The interesting point is: Will an act of betrayal lead to Rand's death or will it happen in another way? We know that Rand must die to win... But the manner of his death is yet unknown, of course, even if there are plenty of hints and clues...

[Guest PiotrekS]

I don't think there will be any betrayal in strict sense by one of the major characters.

 

I wonder though about the other scenario. What if Egwene fails to convince Rand not to break the Seals and decides to make a preemptive strike with her loyal Aes Sedai (maybe convincing Nynaeve and/or Elayne to join her) to seal the Dark One, therefore causing Saidar to become tainted?

[sleepinghour]

I only used the Jesus parallel because that's the only one I'm very familiar with.

RJ said Mat was partially based on the Norse trickster god Loki, who caused the death of Baldr ("the shining god"). Baldr was said to represent light and was impervious to everything except mistletoe (forkroot?). After the apocalyptic battle Ragnarok, Baldr would return from the dead and rule over the new earth. So there are possible parallels there as well, if Mat's the one.

[FarShainMael]

What sort of betrayal do you have in mind?

 

It wouldn't be betraying his location to the DO, who - as Rand says - now has all Its attention focussed on him. It might be betraying his plans, except that he says he doesn't have one yet beyond breaking the seals, and that one's in the public domain anyway. Or it might be that a source of assistance Rand relies on is suddenly unavailable.

 

On the whole I'd vote for Bashere. As someone pointed out up-thread, there's that viewing of Min's: "there's something.. dark.. about Lord Bashere. If he turns against you, or dies.."

 

Or, perhaps, kills Min, Rand's researcher-in-chief! Min's death may have been foreshadowed by LTT-voice adding her name to Rand's list of killed women (TGS29).

[Suttree]

What about Alivia? Maybe not intentionally but there is the whole "help Rand die" viewing by Min...

 

Btw the Egewene trying to gentle Rand thing is ludicrous even by the crazed standards of the anti-Egwene crowd.

[Randommer]

I voted Bashere, 'cos I think he's a farily likely candidate due to Min's viewing of him. And I think he's very possibly the Broken Wolf, but that's a different story...

 

I also agree that Mat's quite possible, though I think he's far more likely to betray Rand to the Seanchan than inadvertently to the Shadow. I know he says that whatever his feelings for Tuon he's still on Rand's side, but if it came down to a choice it's hard to know what he'd do. Or it could be accidental. All the foreshadowing is certainly interesting, as is the Loki parallel discussed by sleepinghour, and the Judas parallel Terez mentioned.

 

Course it's worth remebering that Rand has actually been betrayed numerous times before, as Lews-Therin. So it doesn't necessarily have to happen again for the 'betrayal requirement' to be met.

[yoniy0]

I went with either Mat or No one. Since I could go with two.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i'd vote mat next most likely if i could vote for two.

 

i hope he won't, i don't think he would on purpose, but the whole flicker portal stone ordeal always had me wondering.

[Edynol]

It could be Alivia when she 'Helps him die', though I doubt it. I have another theory for her. It could maybe be Elayne, though she wouldn't see it as betrayal, she'd be trying to save him. I for one wouldn't count Eggy as a betrayer since she's already against him in many things. I doubt it's Alanna, because of Min's viewings. I'd hate for it to be Mat, because he's my favorite, but I can see a scenario where he does something that could be viewed as betrayal by somehow helping Tuon make him kneel before her throne.

 

I for one thought for a while Faile was a darkfriend and would lead Perrin to betray Rand unwittingly, but she isn't a darkfriend. During everyone's PoV in the books, it's revealed rather or not they are a darkfriend, aside from Verin because she is just very vague all around because she is a DF, but at the same time, she is not. But even though I don't like Faile(I like her as a character, just not the person, just to make myself clear on that) I cannot believe her to be a DF. Mainly because RJ made it where people's thoughts in their PoVs were true thoughts and not meant to delude the reader. If she was a DF, we'd have known long before now.

[graendalzooescapee]

I see "none" is picking up steam. I've never thought straightforward Rand=Jesus stuff worked, and the RJ quote included earlier in this thread just cements it. Really, all the hardcore Jesus parallelism is in the minds of unreliable characters (Masema, Taim).

 

And, I swear, if Rand really lies dead for three days and is resurrected, I'm throwing AMOL across the room. I know there's the Nynaeve quote, but I hold out desperate hope that it's purely hyperbole. There hasn't been a single allusion in all of WOT so far that was that simpleminded, and it really better not climax with one. I mean, what does that end up meaning? That Jesus was the Age of Myths Dragon and was then reborn as Lews Therin? That's just. . .dumb.

 

It would be so much more nuanced and complex if Rand was more a generalized Dying God like in The Golden Bough, which I can only assume RJ read. (Acceptable Wikipedia article if you don't know what I'm talking about. No, I didn't write it.) The connection between Rand and the Fisher King, and the "Dragon is one with the land" thing point in that direction. And the betrayal by a friend really isn't part of that myth group on the whole.

 

(Full disclosure--I don't think the connections between Jesus and the Dying God in The Golden Bough work. At all. But I'm in the minority there so I can respect any author who disagrees with me and uses Jesus as one influence on a mythic character.)

[FarShainMael]

And, I swear, if Rand really lies dead for three days and is resurrected, I'm throwing AMOL across the room. I know there's the Nynaeve quote, but I hold out desperate hope that it's purely hyperbole.

 

I'm of the opinion that this has already happened.. in a way, in VoG.

 

Rand (as Darth Rand) goes from Tear, and eventually ends up on Dragonmount, where he has his epiphany. When he comes down from the mountain he is Rand Sedai. Darth Rand is dead and gone. The new reborn Rand Sedai is an entity we haven't seen before - a being in whom LTT and TR-Rand are united, with all the memories of both and then some. It's a rebirth rather than a resurrection such as was forced on Birgitte, though.

 

And he was away for three days (ToM p188).

 

Before he left Tear, Nynaeve asked him (on Caddy's instructions) where Perrin was, because Caddy needed to get Tam who was with Perrin at the time. Eventually Rand gave Nyn this info, because he had a debt to her for caring when he could not (TGS p 697). Tam was the key to Rand regaining his sanity. So in a subtle way, Nyn did have a hand in Rand's rebirth.

[Hopebringer]

It will be Perrin. At one time he said something like "Without Faile the world could burn in fire".

 

I guess it could end with another time Faile being captured - this time by darkfriends - forcing him somehow to betray Rand.

[David Selig]

I hope not, the last thing this series needs is another "Woman gets captured" plot, it's been way overused already. Perrin already saved Faile twice, that's more than enough.

[graendalzooescapee]

And, I swear, if Rand really lies dead for three days and is resurrected, I'm throwing AMOL across the room. I know there's the Nynaeve quote, but I hold out desperate hope that it's purely hyperbole.

 

I'm of the opinion that this has already happened.. in a way, in VoG.

 

Rand (as Darth Rand) goes from Tear, and eventually ends up on Dragonmount, where he has his epiphany. When he comes down from the mountain he is Rand Sedai. Darth Rand is dead and gone. The new reborn Rand Sedai is an entity we haven't seen before - a being in whom LTT and TR-Rand are united, with all the memories of both and then some. It's a rebirth rather than a resurrection such as was forced on Birgitte, though.

 

And he was away for three days (ToM p188).

 

Before he left Tear, Nynaeve asked him (on Caddy's instructions) where Perrin was, because Caddy needed to get Tam who was with Perrin at the time. Eventually Rand gave Nyn this info, because he had a debt to her for caring when he could not (TGS p 697). Tam was the key to Rand regaining his sanity. So in a subtle way, Nyn did have a hand in Rand's rebirth.

 

I'm cool with that. See, subtle. Not in lockstep with any real-world person or character's arc.

[sleepinghour]

I also agree that Mat's quite possible, though I think he's far more likely to betray Rand to the Seanchan than inadvertently to the Shadow. I know he says that whatever his feelings for Tuon he's still on Rand's side, but if it came down to a choice it's hard to know what he'd do.

That's what I think too. If it's Mat, it will probably involve him trying to protect Tuon and perhaps failing to realize what the consequences would be. In ToM he wanted to give Tuon a foxhead medallion as protection without thinking of what might happen if the Seanchan were to figure out to to copy them. Then their army would truly have been unstoppable.

[Terez]

Rand's supposed to be the source of the legends. That means that theoretically the Jesus stories could be garbled misremembrances of Rand's story. That's not saying much, though, and it gives RJ a lot of freedom. Some think Rand will be dead for three days. It's possible, certainly. It wouldn't bother me personally. There are enough differences that Rand can handle a major similarity or two without becoming too cliche.

[Edynol]

Well I'm still not sure if Rand will be betrayed. But there is of course Taim. I concider that a pretty big betrayal. I still think Taim is going to be a Foresaken one way or another. I know he isn't one of the known existing Foresaken, but I think, if he is not one already, he is going to be promoted to one. I really thought he was Dred at first, because of how he acted and responded everytime Rand praised or rewarded him, but since it's comfirmed he is not, I think he's been under the instructions of him.

 

I also have this theory about Mat and the band(along with some Seanchan), teaming up with Logain and his Ashies/AS against Dred and Taim and their Ashies and AS. It would be an epic battle. On Mat's side, we have Seanchan soldiers, Sul'dam and Dammane, Ashies and AS(Lead by Logain), and the band. On Dred's side, we Those Aiel-looking guys, maybe Channelers from the Isle of Madmen, Ashies and AS(Lead by Taim), and Shadowspawn. So see, everyone has something to fight. Then if Dred presents something new, Mat just blows the Horn and counters that or maybe Elayne's Kin and other forces join in, since this will likely take place in Caemlyn, and owns Dred and Taim.

[sleepinghour]

Rand's supposed to be the source of the legends. That means that theoretically the Jesus stories could be garbled misremembrances of Rand's story. That's not saying much, though, and it gives RJ a lot of freedom.

Chances are, not even Rand's contemporaries will know the whole story. His resurrection has to be presented as a one-time miracle or everyone would start asking for their loved ones to be brought back from the dead.

[Edynol]

Someone wrote a small fan-fic a while back about how Rand could be brought bck to life. To put it shortly, Ny figures out how to bring Rand back from the dead by following a small thread link to his soul still barely present in his body. She then grabs that thread with the power and pulls him back to life. But in doing this, she pays a price. Her connection to the source is removed. Not like being severed, but the ability to channel completely removed, like she had never been able to channel. There is nothing there to be healed. There's no severed link to saidar, the link is completely gone. So right there, that prevents her from teaching anyone else how to do it, Rand lives, and she gets to grow old and die with Lan, like she wants.

[FarShainMael]

And, I swear, if Rand really lies dead for three days and is resurrected, I'm throwing AMOL across the room. I know there's the Nynaeve quote, but I hold out desperate hope that it's purely hyperbole.

 

I'm of the opinion that this has already happened.. in a way, in VoG.

 

Rand (as Darth Rand) goes from Tear, and eventually ends up on Dragonmount, where he has his epiphany. When he comes down from the mountain he is Rand Sedai. Darth Rand is dead and gone. The new reborn Rand Sedai is an entity we haven't seen before - a being in whom LTT and TR-Rand are united, with all the memories of both and then some. It's a rebirth rather than a resurrection such as was forced on Birgitte, though.

 

And he was away for three days (ToM p188).

 

Before he left Tear, Nynaeve asked him (on Caddy's instructions) where Perrin was, because Caddy needed to get Tam who was with Perrin at the time. Eventually Rand gave Nyn this info, because he had a debt to her for caring when he could not (TGS p 697). Tam was the key to Rand regaining his sanity. So in a subtle way, Nyn did have a hand in Rand's rebirth.

 

I'm cool with that. See, subtle. Not in lockstep with any real-world person or character's arc.

 

Glad you like it

 

A further point is that it does not exclude the possibility of Rand dying actually at TG. Recall this:

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die

 

Perhaps the DR has lived twice - once as TR/Darth Rand, once as Rand Sedai - and has 'died' once. Perhaps he's going to die a second time.