The Oath Rod

[Goldstar]

In the Path of Daggers, there is a chapter with Galina Casban's POV. In the chapter, she is bound to the Shaido Wise Ones by use of an oath rod. Galina expresses extreme shock at the existence of a second Oath Rod, outside of the one inside the Tower. She also takes note of the number on the bottom of the Shaido Rod, 111. The one in the Tower is marked with the number three. In this chapter, two things come to mind. First, that the Black Ajah does not use an Oath Rod to take their oaths as a Darkfriend. I may have missed something on here, but I heavily doubt that the Black Ajah would risk using the Tower's Oath Rod to take their oaths. Second, there is a large chance of more Oath Rods that survived the breaking, considering that if the numbers are numerical organizers, there is at least 111 of them. Thoughts?

[herid]

Moridin has three oath rods in his stash (ToM, Ch 5).

 

You are right that the scene you mention does suggest that the Balck Ajah does not use another oath rod for their oaths since Galina thinks of the oath rod that Sevanna has as "a second Oath rod".

But I don't see why Black Ajah would not be able to take the Tower oath rod as needed. Saerin and co certainly seemed to be able to take it quite often without notice and Black Ajah didn't raise Black sisters every day.

 

However, Verin seemed quite unsure if she could remove the oaths on her with the help of the Tower oath rod. If the same rod was used when she swore her oaths she would presumably have no such doubts. That does support your theory that the Black Ajah oaths are not made with an oath rod at all. It should be a similar device though as whatever is used does impart the ageless look and makes the oaths binding the way an Oath rod does.

 

BS was asked about the Black Ajah oath recently and he said that some info might be included in the WoT encyclopedia they are planning to write after aMoL.

[Terez]

Verin's comment seems more related to the 'distinctive' process used in the binding than anything else.

[herid]

Verin's comment seems more related to the 'distinctive' process used in the binding than anything else.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The "distinctive process" bit actually supports the idea that it was more involved than simply swearing on an Oath rod. But Verin also says that she is not sure if using an oath rod to remove the oaths to the DO would work. We of course know that it would but she doesn't seem to be certain at all.

 

"...my first plan was to find the Oath Rod, then see if I could use it to remove the Great Lord's oaths. The Oath Rod appears to have gone missing, unfortunately."

 

Saerin, Egwene thought, and the others. They must have taken it again. "I'm sorry, Verin," she said.

 

"It might not have worked anyway," Verin said, settling back on the bed, arranging the pillow behind her streaked brown hair. "The process of making those oaths to the Great Lord was . . . distinctive.

-tGS, Ch 39

This does strongly suggest that either something else was used to make the Black Ajah oaths or an Oath Rod was used in combination with something else. And as the OP said, Galina's reaction at seeing another Oath Rod means that if an Oath Rod was used in Black Ajah oaths it must have been the original White Tower Oath Rod.

[mb]

Some scene tells that Sitters are allowed access to White Tower's terangreal. Do not remember which scene.

One or more of the pre-Coup Sitters might have been a Black. Blacks I take use the Rod to forswear their "Light-sided" Oaths at the time of being "raised" to the Black. Black Sitters probably have taken the Rod to those times.

[Terez]

Verin's comment seems more related to the 'distinctive' process used in the binding than anything else.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Her hesitation before saying the word 'distinctive' indicates that she was using diplomatic wording, or euphemistic wording, which means she was probably referring to some sort of distasteful and evil ritual-type practice. If the Black Ajah had another Oath Rod, or didn't use the Oath Rod at all, then don't you think Verin would have just said so? It's an important piece of information.

 

Furthermore, only the Oath Rod causes the ageless look, and we have no reason to believe that there is some sort of other ter'angreal which has a similar effect. Your post that I responded to said nothing about 'in combination with something else'. You just asserted that Verin's comment supported the idea that the Black Ajah did not use the Oath Rod, which is not true. Galina's 'new trinity' was introduced to explain why the Black Ajah retained the ageless look after having been freed from the Oaths. RJ specifically said that three oaths were required to cause the ageless look.

[OptimusPrime]

Distinctive meaning measures are taken to ensure she didnt pull off Mesaanas trick of fooling the Oath Rod . Standard procedure, nothing to do with evil-type rituals, unless you count the whole recruiting Black Ajah thing...

[Terez]

I don't see why that would give Verin any reason to believe that the Oath Rod would not release her from her oaths. Nor does it explain the hesitation.

[Luckers]

I agree with Terez. Verin's comment speaks to extra elements that [may have/probably would have in Verin's opinion] prevented someone from voluntarily seeking to free oneself from the Black Oaths in order to betray the Dark One. To prevent further torture, sure, even if that results in a betrayal later on--but to do it just to then betray the Great Lord...

 

Though, Verin could always have simply been wrong.

[Terez]

Well, even she thought there was a chance. I think she was just trying to make herself feel a little better about not having managed to procure the Rod by rationalizing that it might not have worked anyway.

[FarShainMael]

I know a bit of binary arithmetic, and when I first read this:

 

Then she saw the flowing marks carved into the end toward her, numerals used in the Age of Legends. One hundred eleven.

 

I immediately thought of it as 111 = the binary equivalent of 7! Or perhaps the AoL equivalent of Roman numerals.

 

The first isn't very likely, though. The WT oath rod is marked 3, not 11, which would be the binary equivalent. But 'Roman numeral' 3 might indicate the number of oaths the rod can bind. Did Elaida actually manage to bind anyone to that oath of fealty she wanted?

[Graveyardhag]

I know a bit of binary arithmetic, and when I first read this:

 

Then she saw the flowing marks carved into the end toward her, numerals used in the Age of Legends. One hundred eleven.

 

I immediately thought of it as 111 = the binary equivalent of 7! Or perhaps the AoL equivalent of Roman numerals.

 

The first isn't very likely, though. The WT oath rod is marked 3, not 11, which would be the binary equivalent. But 'Roman numeral' 3 might indicate the number of oaths the rod can bind. Did Elaida actually manage to bind anyone to that oath of fealty she wanted?

 

Elaida didn't but the black ajah hunters used it to place an extra oath on all the rebel aes sedai who went back to the tower.

[MierinWru]

On a slightly unrelated note:

 

I seem to remember that in one of the books it is said the Oath Rods probably had a completely different function in the Age of Legends but that nobody knows exactly what they were used for. Are there any theories?

 

 

[Pygmalion79]

On a slightly unrelated note:

 

I seem to remember that in one of the books it is said the Oath Rods probably had a completely different function in the Age of Legends but that nobody knows exactly what they were used for. Are there any theories?

They were called "binders" and were used to "bind" criminals who could use the One Power not to repeat their crimes, simultaneously punishing them by halving their lifespans.

[Ferdawoon]

I have no source for this, and I'm not sure if it is from teh books or from a thread here or something, but did not someone mention that the Dark One's oaths had a resemblance of Compulsion? That the patterns seemed alike or something.

[Pinzarn]

I have no source for this, and I'm not sure if it is from teh books or from a thread here or something, but did not someone mention that the Dark One's oaths had a resemblance of Compulsion? That the patterns seemed alike or something.

 

That is what I recall as well. I thought it was similar to the Warder binding process which is a form of Compulsion.

[Luckers]

I have no source for this, and I'm not sure if it is from teh books or from a thread here or something, but did not someone mention that the Dark One's oaths had a resemblance of Compulsion? That the patterns seemed alike or something.

 

That is what I recall as well. I thought it was similar to the Warder binding process which is a form of Compulsion.

 

 

Ishamael tells Lanfear that her Oaths to the Dark One were not so easily given up as her oaths to the Light--but this may just indicate potential retribution... the quote...

 

“Do you serve yourself now, Lanfear?” Ba’alzamon’s voice was soft, but flame raged continuously in

his eyes and mouth. “Have you abandoned your oaths to the Great Lord of the Dark?” For an instant the darkness nearly obliterated him, only the glowing fires showing through. “They are not so easily broken as the oaths to the Light you forsook, proclaiming your new master in the very Hall of the Servants. Your master claims you forever, Lanfear. Will you serve, or do you choose an eternity of pain, of endless dying without release?”

 

“I serve.” Despite her words, she stood tall and defiant. “I serve the Great Lord of the Dark and none other. Forever!”

 

This, other than Verin's comment in tGS, is the only comment to that effect.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mmm, slightly OT but that quote courtesy of Luckers *nods* is very familiar (not the scene itself, but the words chosen.)

 

Your master claims you forever, Lanfear. Will you serve, or do you choose an eternity of pain, of endless dying without release?”

 

Sounds alot like ToM epilogue. Possible foreshadowing?

[Sid]

Sounds alot like ToM epilogue. Possible foreshadowing?

That is actually the first thing that came to mind when I read that quote.

[Sharaman]

The Forsaken swore their oaths directly to the GLoD at SG. They didn't use oath rods just "bathed in his radiance at SG".

I think those specific oaths sworn by the Forsaken are the ones referred to, not the Black Ajah oaths.

 

Verin was, we know, "almost" certainly wrong in doubting that it could be done. FWIW, Pevara & co. didn't know it could be done until they did it. So Verin may just be wondering if "forswearing" any oath at all is possible.

Talene was forsworn of the BA oaths without any complications. Unless there was something very specific and unique to Verin's swearing ceremony, which didn't feature in the normal BA swearing? Verin gives no hint of that.

 

As to extra oaths, Galina's example (Therava-Sevanna obedience) also shows that extra oaths aren't an issue.