Saidin + Saidar + Dark One = No sane channeler?

[Ferdawoon]

Maybe this belong more in the "Short question, short answer" thread, but, well. I like to think that this can lead to at least a few posts of discussion. :D

 

When LTT seal off the Dark One in Age of Legends, they touch him with the power to push him in, and when touching him with Saidin it become tainted. Now, Is this the error that must be fixed this time around? Because, if he have the women helping him this time, which he hope to have, and he use both the powers in a link, will that not make all channelers go mad? Will that not taint both Saidin and Saidar?

[Muad Cheade]

Yes. If Rand attempted to seal the Bore in the same manner LTT, both saidin and saidar would be tainted and the world would be broken again.

 

Currently, he only has a rough idea of what to do.

[jemron]

Some have speculated that Rand will need to somehow use the True Power as a "buffer" between touching the actual prison and re-sealing the bore with the One Power (both Saidin and Saidar). I like this theory, but it has also been pointed out by many that Demandred (or maybe it's Moggy??) mentions in a PoV that using the TP too close to the Bore would mean instant death for whoever tried to use it. Also, it seems that this wouldn't work because the DO should be able to sense/know that Rand is using the TP against him (assuming that's even possible) and it seems logical that the DO could then cut Rand off to it at any time.

 

The other theory that I like but don't quite understand, would be that Padan Fains/Mordeth's powers could be used as the buffer between the prison and the OP (just as the evil of Shadar Logoth was used as a buffer between the OP and the taint to syphon or clean off the taint).

[FarShainMael]

If Rand's access to the TP is via Moridin, that just might get around both problems - getting fried by too much TP, or the DO knowing he's using it.

 

Hmm.. Moridin as a TP sa'angreal..

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, I basically agree with jemron. Fain is new to the pattern, so noone quite like him as existed before. Although I guess Mordeth, or someone like him, might have existed before. In the case this is the only way to do it, that kind of evil must have existed at every previous turning of the Wheel.

 

 

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

AaronB20 asks: Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course.

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

[Ferdawoon]

Yeah, I basically agree with jemron. Fain is new to the pattern, so noone quite like him as existed before. Although I guess Mordeth, or someone like him, might have existed before. In the case this is the only way to do it, that kind of evil must have existed at every previous turning of the Wheel.

Yeh same for me. Especially after all the hints on how the "taint" of the Dark one from Ishamael striking him and the "taint" from Shadar Logoth from the Ruby Dagger. We see how the Saidin Taint reacted with the Shadar Logoth evil, we know that the evil of Shadar Logoth was, in a way, Light at the start as it was a people who tried to zealosly defeat the Dark One.

 

Cant remember if it was somewhere in the books or the 4th age podcast or a thread here on the forum, where they say that the Dark One's oaths was a form of Compulsion that someone could sense. We know that Fain was ordered to kill Rand and it is not too farfetched to think that he is also under the effect of Compulsion, which Nyn can try to unravel, or place a heavier version on him, and use him and his Shadar Logoth evil as the mean to push the Dark One in to the prison.

 

A thought I have had is that Rand will place himself in the prison as well, and use himself as that pusher, being the Beacon of Light that he is.

[mb]

Of the methods that might work, these might be the safest::

-Treesinging

-Fain's mist creating ability

[Guest Saine_Tarasind]

Some have speculated that Rand will need to somehow use the True Power as a "buffer" between touching the actual prison and re-sealing the bore with the One Power (both Saidin and Saidar). I like this theory, but it has also been pointed out by many that Demandred (or maybe it's Moggy??) mentions in a PoV that using the TP too close to the Bore would mean instant death for whoever tried to use it. Also, it seems that this wouldn't work because the DO should be able to sense/know that Rand is using the TP against him (assuming that's even possible) and it seems logical that the DO could then cut Rand off to it at any time.

 

The other theory that I like but don't quite understand, would be that Padan Fains/Mordeth's powers could be used as the buffer between the prison and the OP (just as the evil of Shadar Logoth was used as a buffer between the OP and the taint to syphon or clean off the taint).

 

Could you (or someone else) find that quote? The Bore does not have a physical location anywhere in the world, though it can be sensed best at Shayol Ghul. Does the quote maybe talk about channeling the TP too close to Shayol Ghul?

 

LoC Prologue (Demandred's pov)

Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed

 

That aside, I love the idea of Rand using the Dark One's own power against him (or maybe something really weird happens when you try to use the TP and the OP together) especially if Rand is to seal the prison like new, not just patched as Lews Therin did (so that the Bore can be drilled again when the second age comes).

[mb]

Treesinging might have a better chance of sealing than anything else.

Or perhaps some Light sided channelers would rediscover construct making and remake a significant number of Nym in time for Tarmon Gaidon.

[Durinax]

does anyone else think that a huge amount of people at the shayol ghul and people channelling will do it?

 

so if you have a ton of people there you will create a thickness of the pattern at that location, along with cahnnelling and taveren effect combo, you will reknit the pattern around the bore

[mb]

To me there is better chance of both halves remaining clean if channeling is not involved in the actual sealing.

[Durinax]

I am not saying that the channelling is actually being used in the sealing, its just being used, even in combat to drive the pattern around that area becasue the OP drives the wheel which drives the pattern. if you get what I am trying to say

[mb]

pre-sealing channeling would be ok.

[Durinax]

ok I think I have compiled what I meant into a understandable theory (may still not make sense)

 

now when you read this remember a few things 1) Shayol ghul (and the pit of dhoom) are where a thinness of the pattern can be sensed 2) there are very few living beings up there (thus few to none threads of the patter up there)

 

Rand is having egwene get all the armeis together to port over to Shyol Ghul but not to fight, the quote strength and order give strength has been used numerous times (mostly in tGS and ToM) and militaries are full of order which gives strength.

 

so what I think is happening is this

 

rand when he ports all armies to shayol ghul is doing so in order to bring many thousands of threads to the thinness of the pattern at shayol ghul in order to not seal the bore but to seal the bore away from the world with the pattern.

I believe that this is where the three taveren together are going to do something important, they are going to start weaving all these threads together to form a barrier to the DO, with mat and perrin marshalling the forces and rand fighting to occupy the DO for long enoguh for this all to work

now for the OP I think it is critical that they be used in order to help keep the wheel turning, I think that the use of the OP will help move and shield the pattern from the DO's influence, it must not be used directly to seal the DO this will lead to disaster.

 

thoughts?

[Mandro]

I am a HUGE fan of channeling the True Power during the LB by rand. I've talked about all of the 3's in the books, and I believe that "the three becoming one." is about Saidar, Saidin and the TP through rand and calandor. I think that is SLIGHTLY supported by "there is something about callandor that makes the taint worse." or something like that. I'm sure it was Cadsuane who said that. Maybe the need of Calandor is to allow rand to access the TP linked to saidar and saidin during the LB. That has been my opinion for a while. the flaw isn't a flaw, the flaw was designed in to let the dragon tap the True Power.

[Alexandros]

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

How interesting, it looks like RJ changed his mind about the one power being able to heal insanity? Or is Nynaeve's new found ability a Brandon addition that wasn't properly referenced?

 

 

On topic - I recall another RJ quote that says that the Power is finite but returns to the source upon use, I think that the Dark One's prison will somehow be plugged up by pouring all of the One Power into it... thereby removing the OP from the world and the Dark One at the same time. Then the next age (and perhaps more after that) will be One Powerless.

[Zentari]

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

How interesting, it looks like RJ changed his mind about the one power being able to heal insanity? Or is Nynaeve's new found ability a Brandon addition that wasn't properly referenced?

Nyn didn't heal insanity, she REMOVED the taint induced one.It's debatable if it's applicable to normal insanity (personally, I think the answer is no).

[Mandro]

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

How interesting, it looks like RJ changed his mind about the one power being able to heal insanity? Or is Nynaeve's new found ability a Brandon addition that wasn't properly referenced?

 

 

On topic - I recall another RJ quote that says that the Power is finite but returns to the source upon use, I think that the Dark One's prison will somehow be plugged up by pouring all of the One Power into it... thereby removing the OP from the world and the Dark One at the same time. Then the next age (and perhaps more after that) will be One Powerless.

 

That is the other theory I'm a fan of. If the OP was alround since the dark ones prison was created by the . . .creator, then why would a world where the power was as ubiquitous as it seems in the age of legends create all of technological wonders?

[Alexandros]

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

How interesting, it looks like RJ changed his mind about the one power being able to heal insanity? Or is Nynaeve's new found ability a Brandon addition that wasn't properly referenced?

Nyn didn't heal insanity, she REMOVED the taint induced one.It's debatable if it's applicable to normal insanity (personally, I think the answer is no).

 

In context of what RJ was saying he was referring to the taint insanity. It wouldn't make sense for him to be talking about how Ishamael healed LTT's (taint induced) insanity and then the sentence after that be referring to normal insanity being uncurable by the OP.

[Mordaunt]

Obviously Nynaeve is better at Delving than RJ.

[Nightstrike]

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant”24 , which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

Also, it was just a patch upon the bore. "In a makeshift manner". The bore needs to be undone. I don't believe channeling or Fain are part of the ultimate solution. Not for the actual "undoing" part anyway.

[Nightstrike]

Treesinging might have a better chance of sealing than anything else.

Or perhaps some Light sided channelers would rediscover construct making and remake a significant number of Nym in time for Tarmon Gaidon.

Ogier might be of importance, since they feel they must participate before moving on into wherever they plan to go.

[Bluedust9]

We've seen singing growing plants, plants are threads in the Pattern, so singing definitely "grows" threads. We've seen Rand do the same with the apples. I feel it'd be an odd way to help seal the Bore, a bunch of singing.. but personally I feel the wound in Rand's side is the hint. Somehow throw the essence of Mordeth into the hole in the Pattern, and while the DO is distracted and fighting Mordeth they heal the Pattern's wound there by whatever way, whether it be singing or whatever.

 

I'm also partial to Rand pulling in all the TP through Callandor (Thank you no buffer) and then being killed. Who knows.

[Durinax]

Treesinging might have a better chance of sealing than anything else.

Or perhaps some Light sided channelers would rediscover construct making and remake a significant number of Nym in time for Tarmon Gaidon.

Ogier might be of importance, since they feel they must participate before moving on into wherever they plan to go.

most of the ogier want to leave without helping. Loial and the Elder want to stay.

[Bluedust9]

Treesinging might have a better chance of sealing than anything else.

Or perhaps some Light sided channelers would rediscover construct making and remake a significant number of Nym in time for Tarmon Gaidon.

Ogier might be of importance, since they feel they must participate before moving on into wherever they plan to go.

most of the ogier want to leave without helping. Loial and the Elder want to stay.

 

Ogier are there for a reason, the Pattern wouldn't have them be in Randland just to leave and not do anything. They grow and build things, and the Dark are naturally turned off against Stedding. I forget can they even enter Stedding? or is it like Shadar Logoth where they won't enter unless they have sufficient Fades ordering them to? Treesinging and the connection with Loial and Somestha making things grow deep in the Blight of all places is enough of a connection to know they're needed.