New Theor--ahem. Speculation. Shaidar Haren Will Be The Death of Shai'tan

[Luckers]

So. This spectacular theor--conjecture has a soli--ok, flimsy basis in this quote...

 

“But he’s dead!” Mat protested. “Rand killed him. I saw the body!” And a fine stink that was, too. I never thought anything could rot that fast.

 

“You saw ‘the body,’ “ Moiraine said with a twist to her mouth. “A man’s body. Not the Dark One, Mat.”

 

He looked at Egwene and the other two women; they appeared as confused as he. Rhuarc looked to be thinking of a battle he had thought was won and now learned had not even been fought.

 

“Then who was it?” Mat demanded. “Moiraine, my memory has holes big enough for a wagon and team, but I remember Ba’alzamon being in my dreams. I remember! Burn me, I do not see how I can ever forget! And I recognized what was left of that face.”

 

“You recognized Ba’alzamon,” Moiraine said. “Or rather, the man who called himself Ba’alzamon. The Dark One yet lives, imprisoned at Shayol Ghul, and the Shadow yet lies across the Pattern.”

 

“The Light illumine and protect us,” Elayne murmured in a faint voice. “I thought . . . . I thought the Forsaken were the worst we had to worry about, now.”

 

“Are you sure, Moiraine?” Nynaeve said. “Rand was certain - is certain - that he killed the Dark One. You seem to be saying Ba’alzamon was not the Dark One at all. I don’t understand! How can you be so sure?. And if he was not the Dark One, who was he?”

 

“I can be sure for the simplest of reasons, Nynaeve. However fast decay took it, that was a man’s body. Can you believe that if the Dark One were killed he would leave a human body? The man Rand killed was a man. Perhaps he was the first of the Forsaken freed, or perhaps he was never entirely bound. We may never know which.”

 

[tDR; 56, People of the Dragon]

 

So here's the thing--Moiraine's logic, however accurate, points us to something rather curious--the Dark One, in Shaidar Haren, has found a body--though perhaps an avatar would be a better way to phrase it. In any case its clear that Shaidar Haren doesn't entirely house the Dark One--but what if he is the key. In some way Rand forces the Dark One to fully inhabit Shaidar Haren--and thus, because he has become physical, he would also therefor be kill-able.

[Terez]

This has been discussed quite a bit at Theoryland, though I think the leading theory is that Padan Fain will be the one to kill him.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its as good a theory than any. I could see it working out. I dont know how the DO would be able to do it though. It took him 100 years or so in the AoL to open the bore to what it is now, so I really have no idea how he will rip it up enough to actually fully come into the Pattern. Maybe I am mistaken, and he could do that in the WoP, I am not sure, correct me if I am wrong.

 

But there could be many ways of doing that. Rand could make him somehow. I dont know.

 

ON a side note: I will be really annoyed if Fain is the one to destroy the DO. Rand should do it, he has gone through so much crap, I want him to win, not from some insane "man's" meddling. Id only accept that if Rand somehow forces the two together (like at the cleansing).

[Nightstrike]

No, I don't think Fain can kill the Dark One. And if he "gained access" to the Wheel, then I think it would be game over - for everybody but the Dark One (Fain included).

 

I also doubt the Dark One can "fit into" the Wheel, not to mention into a single body. "Doubt", as in I can't imagine it in the WoT world.

 

(RJ said there was nothing special about this turning of the Wheel. Fain would have to be pretty special if he were that powerful.)

 

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

[Luckers]

I also doubt the Dark One can "fit into" the Wheel, not to mention into a single body. "Doubt", as in I can't imagine it in the WoT world.

 

One of the things I was thinking--and again, pure speculation--is if Rand manages to cut the Dark One's conciousness off from his Power. The Dark One's conciousness is stuck in Shaidar Haren's body, but the greater reality of his nature, like a headless chicken, still exists.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mmm, that could work. No point to a sword without a hand to wield it.

 

I came across a passage in ToM that could be indicative.

 

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

 

I am guessing that the infinite void be the Pit of Doom.

 

"All that he is can be seized" is interesting. it could mean two things.

 

1. Refering to the DO, or TP. (this could support your theory, Rand seizes the DO and forces him into a body)

 

2. All that Rand is can be seized. No idea what that would mean. Perhaps he is seized by the DO and they have it off. Or he can realize his full potential when directly facing the DO.

 

Edit: Actually, I just got an idea that coincides with one of my thoughts. The "Light" held before the maw = Callandor. Min thinks Callandor will leave Rand vunerable due to a flaw. Flaw= DO can "seize all that he is." Then Rand sacrifices himself, his "blood on the rocks of SG" the buffer between saidar/saidin and the DO (so no taint)

[Terez]

ON a side note: I will be really annoyed if Fain is the one to destroy the DO. Rand should do it, he has gone through so much crap, I want him to win, not from some insane "man's" meddling. Id only accept that if Rand somehow forces the two together (like at the cleansing).

I tend to think it more likely that Fain will get Shaidar Haran, and that this will temporarily incapacitate the Dark One and make it possible for Rand to do his thing (whatever that might be).

[Luckers]

ON a side note: I will be really annoyed if Fain is the one to destroy the DO. Rand should do it, he has gone through so much crap, I want him to win, not from some insane "man's" meddling. Id only accept that if Rand somehow forces the two together (like at the cleansing).

I tend to think it more likely that Fain will get Shaidar Haran, and that this will temporarily incapacitate the Dark One and make it possible for Rand to do his thing (whatever that might be).

 

 

I always liked the idea of Perrin taking out Shaidar Haren--the whole 'an entire pack would die to see a Neverborn'... plus, one of my absolute favourite moments in the series was this one...

 

A pack of seven had a different prey, somewhere out there in the darkness. One of the Neverborn ran for its hard-footed four-legs--its horse, a distant part of him said--and his brothers followed, noses filled with its scent, its essence of death. Inside his head, he was with them, seeing with their eyes. As they closed in, the Neverborn turned, cursing, black blade and black-clad Neverborn like part of the night. But night was where his brothers and sisters hunted.

 

It always just kind of made the connection stick in my head--Myrdraal and wolves dance in the same arena.

 

Though, that being said, I'm not a huge fan in general of the 'epic battle pairings'. I'd like one or two, of course, but not everyone has to be killed by their most fitting rival.

[Terez]

Yeah, RJ has a specific tendency to avoid the revenge killings in particular, like having Mat kill Couladin. I think it's more than just that with Fain and Shaidar Haran, though. Not only does Fain have a special ability to hurt Fades that does not depend on the Power, but he's also headed to Shayol Ghul to wait for Rand. And there's a good chance Rand will die before making it that way - and Fain will know the moment he dies. If that happens, he'll be frustrated, to say the least, and he'll need to take it out on somebody. His increasing ability to control Shadowspawn is certainly no accident.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah, RJ has a specific tendency to avoid the revenge killings in particular

 

Rahvin and Semirhage would beg to differ, arguably two of the most significant deaths in the series. And if you would count Couladin as a revenge kill if Rand had done it, then you could also count Mesaanas death on that list, but Egwene killed her, and Egwene killing anyone lessens it by default because she is Egwene

[ice9planet]

I see Rand killing the DO, and Fain ruining the celebration by coming from out of nowhere to kill Rand.

[yoniy0]

I don't know, Luckers, it just feels too... Dragonlancy, too Meloriany, that the DO will be caught in his avatar and dispensed of that way. I feel like Rand has to face the DO on his own level.

 

And I don't worry too much about Shaidar Haran. Once the DO is safely Sealed away (and I use that term only because Rand did; I generally think that His prison has to be whole again, not 'fixed'/'patched') I can't see SH existing. The same probably goes for every Shadowspawn out there (at least, it seems that way to me), but Shaidar Haran for sure.

I see them all suffering the same fate the Nazgul and most of the orcs suffered in LotR after Sauron was gone.

[Tiinker]

Does anyone on the Light-side know about Shaidar Haran?

[yoniy0]

I don't think so.

[Massive]

Thom? Thom got past a prototype SH.

[Suttree]

Thom? Thom got past a prototype SH.

 

If you're referring to Whitebridge that was just a plain old Myrddraal.

[FarShainMael]

Yeah, RJ has a specific tendency to avoid the revenge killings in particular

 

Rahvin and Semirhage would beg to differ, arguably two of the most significant deaths in the series. And if you would count Couladin as a revenge kill if Rand had done it, then you could also count Mesaanas death on that list, but Egwene killed her, and Egwene killing anyone lessens it by default because she is Egwene

 

Revenge is a dish that is best served cold.. Rand was anything but cold when he killed those two!

 

Er, Eggy didn't kill Messy. She isn't dead, just (!!) 'destroyed'.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah, RJ has a specific tendency to avoid the revenge killings in particular

 

Rahvin and Semirhage would beg to differ, arguably two of the most significant deaths in the series. And if you would count Couladin as a revenge kill if Rand had done it, then you could also count Mesaanas death on that list, but Egwene killed her, and Egwene killing anyone lessens it by default because she is Egwene

 

Revenge is a dish that is best served cold.. Rand was anything but cold when he killed those two!

 

Doesnt make it any less of a revenge kill though does it? A hot plate of revenge is MORE revenge than a cold one IMO

[WhiskyJack]

Killing SH at best will incapacitate DO temporarily. On the other hand showdown between SH and Rand probably will be one sided with SH kicking Rand's behind thoroughly. Now Mordain might be a different deal. We have never seen SH fighting for his life so we don't know his true powers. Perhaps he was created in this age to take down Mordain (there was no SH or Mordain during AoL).

[yoniy0]

showdown between SH and Rand probably will be one sided with SH kicking Rand's behind thoroughly.

In my estimate, Shaidar Haran can only 'shield' those channelers who allowed themselves to be bonded to the DO. Recent remarks by BS make is more likely that Rand channeled the TP through his link with Moridin, making it less likely that Shaidar Haran might be able to affect him. Of course, my believing it doesn't make it so, but I'm aware of no evidence to the contrary.

[RushavMohanty]

The Dark One cannot be killed just as the Creator cannot be killed. They are equals, or else the Creator could have just wished him into non-existence instead of sealing him. I'm pretty sure if the Dark One ever won he would also only be able to seal the Creator away and remake not destroy time. Both of them can influence the Pattern in their own right and wage battles through avatars.

 

Plus I think Robert Jordan pretty much says through Herid Fel that the best mankind can do is replicate the Creators work and make a "true" patch. There has to be a patch when the "time" of drilling into the bore comes again.

 

If the Dark One is the dominant one during a certain turning then the Forces of the Light will instead be the invaders but the Wheel must turn. The Dark One and the Creator can only influence the Age Lace but the Wheel takes no sides and must nevertheless turn. All that humanity is doing is making sure that the Dark One isn't the one holding the fort guaranteeing that the next turning will be more good than bad. It's easier to defend a lead if you've got home court advantage. If the Dark One won one turning then the next is guaranteed to have more bad things than good and the Light would be like the away side coming for the return leg of the game. By winning the Light ensure they always have home court advantage for the next turning.

[WhiskyJack]

This is my take. Creator created WoT,True Source and prison of DO and by creating life, gave humanity the power to free DO. You did think that if creator truly feared DO, he might make more effort and actively help good humans or simply punish the bad ones. Isn't it true the if DO breaks out in one world, he is free in all. I consider this a multi-universe problem where all verses exist stacked next to each other and DO exist in a separate universe of it's own that also works as a prison. This way there is only one DO.Now creator's lack of interest either proofs that he has great trust in ability of human race or he simply does not consider DO much of a threat. As for as I am considered, Dragon was solely created to preserve "life" from DO.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

I wonder if Perrin's hammer will be used to kill Shaidar Haren.

 

We have seen a lot of shadowspawn killed by mundane weapons. Gholum seem to be immune. If I was the DO custom-building a super-Myrddraal I think I would want to incorporate the Gholum's mundane weapon resistance into the design.

 

The Hammer's extra little sizzle might might do the trick against SH. It also bears the image of a wolf, and we know how they feel about Myrddraal.

[WhiskyJack]

SH is not a Myrddraal (a shadowspawn) and Perrin's hammer is as effective as any power wrought weapon. Rand has one such sword (so has Lan and many others).

[yoniy0]

SH is not a Myrddraal

Hmm, what? Is too

Seriously, we know he can 'travel' through shadows. That ability's unique to Myrddraal.

 

Perrin's hammer is as effective as any power wrought weapon. Rand has one such sword (so has Lan and many others).

Not quite. It burns Shadowspawn upon contact. Rand's and Lan's swords don't do that.