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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

This is probably old news anyway...


Angelhydes
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Ok So I've been relistening to my audio versions of the books and I'm on Lord of Chaos and Rand has just been bounded by Alaana and after he get's to the palace he opens a gateway to the Farm and runs through trying to get away form Alaana...anyway he soon start's talking to Tiam (Not sure of my spelling on the names hope I'm getting them at least a little right), and they're talking about recruitment to find other men that can Channel, those that don't pass would be sent on to Caemlyn and recruited into Rand's Personal army, when Tiam mentions the Aial in that he calls them, SO CALLED AIAL. It was something that I never noticed before it's probably been brought at dozen times before and I'm just to lazy to look for it in all the threads...

 

It's not hard proof but I think it points out that Tiam is from the Age of Legands Why else would he call the So Called Aial, of course the most logical choice is that Tiam is Demondred (once again not sure on the spelling). Was wondering if anybody else had heard this or seen it once agian not hard proof but I thought it would through it out there and see what would happen :)

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its already been mentioned, and is one of the key pieces of support for Taimendrad.

 

How can it be support when RJ has already blown the theory up?

 

Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."

 

[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]

 

Tim Kington concurs:

 

Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"

A: (Disgusted) "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."

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Ok So I've been relistening to my audio versions of the books and I'm on Lord of Chaos and Rand has just been bounded by Alaana and after he get's to the palace he opens a gateway to the Farm and runs through trying to get away form Alaana...anyway he soon start's talking to Tiam (Not sure of my spelling on the names hope I'm getting them at least a little right), and they're talking about recruitment to find other men that can Channel, those that don't pass would be sent on to Caemlyn and recruited into Rand's Personal army, when Tiam mentions the Aial in that he calls them, SO CALLED AIAL. It was something that I never noticed before it's probably been brought at dozen times before and I'm just to lazy to look for it in all the threads...

 

It's not hard proof but I think it points out that Tiam is from the Age of Legands Why else would he call the So Called Aial, of course the most logical choice is that Tiam is Demondred (once again not sure on the spelling). Was wondering if anybody else had heard this or seen it once agian not hard proof but I thought it would through it out there and see what would happen :)

 

 

Say hello to Moridin for me

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I feel like people aren't giving you a very straight answer, but just so you know, this has been discussed TO DEATH. After LoC (Lord of Chaos) came out, there were many who subscribed to the "Taim = Demandred" theory. For YEARS this was a popular theory. I believed it 100%. The Taimandred supporters were many. The problem is, at some point, RJ himself debunked that theory and said on more than one occasion that Demandred and Taim were not the same person. There are some who actually still cling to the Taimandred theory, but they are obviously grasping at straws at this point. It is unlikely that RJ was lying. Brandon Sanderson has even made several statements about Demandred that are clearly against the Taimandred theory.

 

Now a fairly popular theory is that Moridin (ie. Ishamael reborn in a younger body and current known Nae'blis) is Taim; however, I personally have a harder time with this theory. One thing we can mostly agree on, Taim is very likely a Darkfriend who has some ties/links to the Age of Legends. His "so called Aiel" comment is just one clue that says he is either from the AoL or he is trained by someone from the AoL.

 

I believe he is so like Demandred because he is one of Dem's "proxies" that Saamael and Graendal mention at one point in the series. I believe that part of Taim is controlled or trained by Demandred, and somehow Taim has taken on certain attributes of his master (Demandred).

 

Anyhoo, I hope this clears up your question. And welcome!

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As mentioned RJ debunked Taim=Demandred theory. The "so-called Aiel" phrase is one of the number of arguments for Taim=Moridin theory. At this point it's quite clear that Taim is either Moridin or a protegee of Moridin, definitely not of Demandred. He uses red and black to decorate the floor of the Balck Tower which is mentioned twice in KoD, Epilogue. Red and black are Moridin's favorite colors and are used as a deliberate plot device to indicate either Moridin or his associates.

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The colors a character uses could mean almost anything; not necessarily who he follows.

 

It seems certain to me that Taim cannot be any of the 13.

Whether Taim follows any of the 13 I am not certain.

 

It seems very likely to me that Taim is a Third Age person.

His comment about the aiel could have come from the Aiel War.

 

 

I have seen 3 possibilities for Taim::

-He being a Darkfriend

-He being one that was forced to the Shadow

-He being his own side

From what I read, there seems equal chance for all 3.

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The colors a character uses could mean almost anything; not necessarily who he follows.

 

oh, please. Red and black are mentioned as colors indicating Moridin or his associates about a dozen of times. This is a deliberate plot device. then we see another character who uses the same colors, it's emphasized twice and it means nothing? coincidences this large don't exist, definitely not in WoT. if you are not willing to accept this, what would you consider as a proof then? Taim's POV saying that he works for Moridin?

Edited by herid
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I personally don't discount your theory that red and black indicate that Taim COULD be Moridin, but it certainly isn't proof.

I'm not saying it's a proof that he is Moridin but I am saying that it's a proof that if he is not Moridin then he is a Moridin's leuitenant, not Demandred's and not anybody else's.

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I still cant understand why people would draw Demandred as the most likely even without the RJ quote. Demandreds MO is one of absolute hatred of Lews Therin. I highly doubt he would be able to contain such feelings and actually save Rand, nor could I imagine him feigning sympathy for him. Ishamael on the other hand, is THE manipulator, and has a history of using alter egos to deal with Ta'veren. Demandred mentions Taim, he is the only Forsaken to do so, he said told Kisman to kill Rand and "better that you die than the M'Hael finds out you failed again." Now, since none of the Taimandred fans question the double order on Rand with their Taimandred theory, yet question it with the Moridin one, answer this. Who is more likely to give double commands that nobody can make sense of-Demandred, or Ishamael?

 

The double order means nothing. People are told what they need to know to get the job done, the truth is irrelevent. You can tell by the fact that the Forsaken want to be Nae'blis.

 

The Bashere flag, the so-called Aiel comment, the Shadow Heirarchy symbols, the red on black, the dark aura, the hand behind the back mannerism. If he isnt Taim hes Moridin. And he isnt Taim

Edited by Drekka Mort
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About the colors; red appears in the sigal and/or flag of a number of this series' countries including Andor, black in a few. The colors could be in honor of those countries.

Or black could have been chosen because the place has "black" in name. Red could relate to the white vs red in Eye of World.

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About the colors; red appears in the sigal and/or flag of a number of this series' countries including Andor, black in a few. The colors could be in honor of those countries.

Or black could have been chosen because the place has "black" in name. Red could relate to the white vs red in Eye of World.

 

See, the thing is, when you put red and black together you get this red and black combo which is actually what we're talking about, we arent just listing random color references. On its own the red and black would mean nothing, but there are many other things that point towards Moridin as well as the colors. They are together for a reason.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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About the colors; red appears in the sigal and/or flag of a number of this series' countries including Andor, black in a few. The colors could be in honor of those countries.

Or black could have been chosen because the place has "black" in name. Red could relate to the white vs red in Eye of World.

cherry picking colors from different objects like that is totally meaningless. come back with somebody other than Taim and Moridin using red and black together specifically and then you'll have an argument.

Edited by herid
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I still cant understand why people would draw Demandred as the most likely even without the RJ quote.

I'd say the simple answer is not smiling. We're introduced to Demandred, who doesn't smile, then shortly afterwards to Taim, who also doesn't smile and bears a certain physical similarity to Demandred. Therefore the link iss drawn in people's minds. The double orders are treated as a killer of both theories.

 

The double order means nothing. People are told what they need to know to get the job done
And what they were told worked against their chances of doing the job.

 

The Bashere flag,
Which proves Taim is Taim.
the so-called Aiel comment,
Which can interpreted multiple ways.
the Shadow Heirarchy symbols,
That Moridin doesn't use.
the dark aura,
Like the one Rand had - Taim is Rand! The evidence for Taim being Moridin is weak and filled with glaring holes which you still cannot address. You have a couple of indicative points, the colours and the hand-behind back, and not much more.

 

Another reason for picking the colors might be they being comfortable to his eyes.

mb, the essential point here is that authors generally do things for a reason. Moridin is associated with the colours red and black, therefore someone else using those two colours together draws a link in the readers' minds between Moridin and whoever else is suing them. This might be a red herring, it might be an actual clue to affiliation or identity. Yes, red and black might be peasing to Taim's eyes, but as Taim is a character created by Robert Jordan, the question people have is why did he decide Taim liked those colours? While this is unknown, we can speculate. Moridin uses red and black, Taim uses red and black, but this combination is not otherwise common. While not conclusive, it is indicative of some sort of link between the two of them.
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Just on the point of red and black.

 

Fain also is obsessed with them. See ToM Prologue.

 

Therefore, Taim = Fain

 

Many people use the colour red and black.

 

Taim also uses a variation of Sammael and Be'lal's sigil.

 

He is a pretender, in the shadow of all of the forsaken.

 

He is similar to demandred, he borrows sigils from Sammael and has Moridin's colours. (all of course, are possibly coincidences)

 

So do all moridin's servants.

 

The red and black hardly means he is Moridin.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Just on the point of red and black.

 

Fain also is obsessed with them. See ToM Prologue.

 

Therefore, Taim = Fain

 

Many people use the colour red and black.

 

Yeah, I own a lot of red+black clothing therefor I must be Demandred, too. Well, a cross-dressing Demandred.

Even though it has to be said that colours do matter in WoT and it would be typical for Jordan to give us hints like that I really think Jordan telling us that Taim isn't Demandred should be enough of a hint. I think I'm actually also not buying the Taim=Moridin theory since (and this is going to sound weird) judging from Rand's last conversation with Moridin in the comfy room with the fireplace I actually think Moridin is too busy wondering what the hell is going on between Rand and him. Whereas Taim is following his quite aggressive agenda.

Their personalities just don't seem alike at this time.

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Just on the point of red and black.

 

Fain also is obsessed with them. See ToM Prologue.

Fain does mention red and black several times in ToM prologue when describing his blood dripping on black ground but he doesn't use them in his clothing or in anything else.

 

 

 

 

Therefore, Taim = Fain

Many people use the colour red and black.

No, they don't in WoT. Only Taim and Moridin use it. Red and black is very specifically associated with Moridin in the book. He dresses his servants in red and black, he dresses Moggy and Cyndane in red and black, his digs in the Blight are decorated in red and black. This is mentioned at just about every opportunity Moridin shows up which is not that often. He even mentions it to Moggy explicitly.

 

The stout innkeeper at The Oarsman’s Pride nearly leaped, too, at the sight of Moghedien striding into her common room in gloriously scarlet silk worked with thread-of-gold and black silk that glistened as richly as the gold. Her mask was a great spray of pitch black feathers with a sharp black beak; a raven. That was Moridin’s joke, his command, as was the dress, in fact. His colors were black and red, he said, and she would wear them while she served him.

-CoS, Ch 30

 

So when other characters are mentioned as liking and using red and black it's not a coincidence.

 

 

When Rand's reflection in TAR on top of Dragonmount is wearing a coat in red and black (which is different from the brown cloak he was wearing in real world at the time) it's not a coincidence, it means something.

 

Same with Taim using red and black to decorate the BT.

And in Taim's case this is emphasized which is particularly striking.

 

The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for tapestries showing battles and red-and-black floor tiles, except that there were no servants in evidence.

...

 

The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors.

 

-KoD, Ch 38

 

 

Taim also uses a variation of Sammael and Be'lal's sigil.

 

He is a pretender, in the shadow of all of the forsaken.

 

He is similar to demandred, he borrows sigils from Sammael and has Moridin's colours. (all of course, are possibly coincidences)

coincidences this large don't exist in WoT. RJ even mentioned in interviews that very few things in the books are done by accident. when we see only two characters in the book (Taim and Moridin) specifically liking red and black or using the "so-called Aiel" phrase it means something. Same when we see Taim using a sigil that two other Forsaken (but nobody else) have used.

 

you can argue about the meaning of those things but dismissing them as coincidences is not a credible argument.

 

 

 

So do all moridin's servants.

 

The red and black hardly means he is Moridin.

I didn't say that it means that he is Moridin. I did say that it means that he is either Moridin or an associate of Moridin, not of Demandred or any other Forsaken.

Edited by herid
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I find it most likely that Taim was originally trained by Ishamael, and that when Ishamael was dead, Demandred was ordering Taim, during the beginnings of the Black Tower. When Moridin came back, Taim started answering directly to the Nae'blis. There are hints of this in Winter's Heart, with the chain of command comment.

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Even if Ishamael/Moridin is the origin of the combination (in this series), it does not necessarily mean Taim follows him.

There might be a chance of Taim being under Compulsion.

that would mean that Taim is not a darkfriend. I don't think anybody seriously believes that anymore. This is not something I'm willing to spend time and effort debating, sorry.

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I find it most likely that Taim was originally trained by Ishamael, and that when Ishamael was dead, Demandred was ordering Taim, during the beginnings of the Black Tower. When Moridin came back, Taim started answering directly to the Nae'blis. There are hints of this in Winter's Heart, with the chain of command comment.

 

This actually makes the most sense to me of anything.

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