Rand Should Die

[SingleMort]

I'm not saying I hate Rand with this thread, in fact I think he's a very good character particularly when he got darker. What I am saying is I think Rand should die at the end, as in not die and then Egwene or whoever brings him back five minutes later. I'd be okay if he died to be reincarnated again when the world needs another dragon, and it might sound silly but I think I would feel a little disappointed Rand did just cheat death somehow.

 

I also kinda hope that the Dark One doesn't die. Not because he's such a wondeful person but because the Dark One has been around since the creation of the world and seems to me to be a very important part of the pattern. And if Rand does manage to kill him wouldn't it destroy the pattern? I mean the Ages that had gone before would never come again, everything would change, and surely that couldn't happen because these cycles seem to have been going on for thousands of years, and if the Dark One could be killed surely he would have been before now. But besides all that surely in a way the world needs the Dark One because how can you really appreciate good without evil to measure it against.

 

Anyway that's just my opinion and I was wondering if other people agreed or disagreed?

[Nightstrike]

I'm not saying I hate Rand with this thread, in fact I think he's a very good character particularly when he got darker. What I am saying is I think Rand should die at the end, as in not die and then Egwene or whoever brings him back five minutes later. I'd be okay if he died to be reincarnated again when the world needs another dragon, and it might sound silly but I think I would feel a little disappointed Rand did just cheat death somehow.

I would be a little disappointed if Rand didn't cheat death. I believe Luckers posted some theories on the subject.

 

I also kinda hope that the Dark One doesn't die. Not because he's such a wondeful person but because the Dark One has been around since the creation of the world and seems to me to be a very important part of the pattern. And if Rand does manage to kill him wouldn't it destroy the pattern? I mean the Ages that had gone before would never come again, everything would change, and surely that couldn't happen because these cycles seem to have been going on for thousands of years, and if the Dark One could be killed surely he would have been before now. But besides all that surely in a way the world needs the Dark One because how can you really appreciate good without evil to measure it against.

I don't think the Dark One can die.

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA

Q: Can the Dark One be balefired?

 

RJ: No.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Will Fain be in the next book?

A: Padan Fain will be seen again. He’s a mixture of two things – Mordeth’s power, which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow, and the Dark One’s Hound. Brandon said that Fain’s number one goal is to kill Rand, and a close second is to kill the Dark One. Now that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed, all of the Mordeth power that remains in the world is in Fain.

--->With a fraction of the Dark One's power.

[SingleMort]

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA

Q: Can the Dark One be balefired?

 

RJ: No.

 

Yes but that doesn't actually say the Dark One can't die only that he can't be killed with balefire. I would be sad if Rand did die but he IS the Dragon Reborn, and he's been schedueled to die since book 1. There are characters in the series who you can imagine them having a life after the Last Battle. But what would Rand do after? Marry Elyane, Min and Avienda and live the quiet life on a farm or as Elyane's prince? That doesn't sound very likely to me.

 

And if the Dark One can't be killed then he has to die sooner or later so the cycle can repeat and a new Dragon Reborn can rise a thousand years later. If he didn't die it would be kind of like if Laura Rosilin hadn't died at the end of Battlestar Galactica.

[herid]

I'm not saying I hate Rand with this thread, in fact I think he's a very good character particularly when he got darker. What I am saying is I think Rand should die at the end, as in not die and then Egwene or whoever brings him back five minutes later. I'd be okay if he died to be reincarnated again when the world needs another dragon, and it might sound silly but I think I would feel a little disappointed Rand did just cheat death somehow.

 

I also kinda hope that the Dark One doesn't die. Not because he's such a wondeful person but because the Dark One has been around since the creation of the world and seems to me to be a very important part of the pattern. And if Rand does manage to kill him wouldn't it destroy the pattern? I mean the Ages that had gone before would never come again, everything would change, and surely that couldn't happen because these cycles seem to have been going on for thousands of years, and if the Dark One could be killed surely he would have been before now. But besides all that surely in a way the world needs the Dark One because how can you really appreciate good without evil to measure it against.

 

Anyway that's just my opinion and I was wondering if other people agreed or disagreed?

I don't really want Rand to die but I don't see him sticking around after the LB is over. That would be like Jesus living next door. He'll either die or go off someplace.

as For Rand killing the DO, we are told in ToM that there can not be light without shadow. I believe that's a general rule for the WoT universe. If Rand (or Fain) kills the DO then someone else (like Fain) has to take the DO's place. I don't see them both getting offed.

[randsc]

Given the archetypes the character is based on, I am almost certain than Rand will die, but then be reborn in some way or form.

[Nightstrike]

Yes but that doesn't actually say the Dark One can't die only that he can't be killed with balefire.

If balefire & Shadar Logoth are out of the question, and the Creator hasn't killed him so far, then how can he be killed?

 

And if the Dark One can't be killed then he has to die sooner or later so the cycle can repeat and a new Dragon Reborn can rise a thousand years later. If he didn't die it would be kind of like if Laura Rosilin hadn't died at the end of Battlestar Galactica.

The Dark One hasn't died. It was the bore that was unmade, so that it could be drilled again. That's the cycle.

[herid]

Given the archetypes the character is based on, I am almost certain than Rand will die, but then be reborn in some way or form.

yes, but that doesn't mean he won't die a second time in the final battle.

[SingleMort]

I wouldn't mind if he was reborn so long as it wasn't in the same body and as the same old Rand we know and love.

 

I'm not saying I want the end to be some backbreaking tragedy because I really don't. But either way book 14 is going to be the last time we see Rand and everyone else and Rand's death like defeating the Dark One is for me for of those things that signifes the end of an era both in the Ages of the WoT and for the series itself.

[Sleeper]

I want him to die as well.

 

He's my favorite character, but imagine the bittersweet ending if he died at TG. It would be somehow fitting, not a happy and sunny ending, but dark and in shades of grey.

[Guest cindy.]

from Harriet's post on RJ's blog after his passing:

 

"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone.

 

"These are words Jim said to me several books ago, in the weary but always thrilling hours of putting the manuscript to bed, ready to carry to New York in the morning -- I remember grabbing a piece of discarded script and scrawling those words up the margin, because they were so beautiful. He was talking about Rand. "

[SingleMort]

from Harriet's post on RJ's blog after his passing:

 

"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone.

 

"These are words Jim said to me several books ago, in the weary but always thrilling hours of putting the manuscript to bed, ready to carry to New York in the morning -- I remember grabbing a piece of discarded script and scrawling those words up the margin, because they were so beautiful. He was talking about Rand. "

 

That IS beautiful. Wow thank you for sharing. How awesome would it be if that was in the last book? You'd have to be emotionally sterile not to shed a tear if Rand died and someone like Egwene or Cadsuane said that at his funeral. Even so those words so perfectly encapsulate Rand and RJ, they got me choked-up just seeing them here.

[Guest cindy.]

it is beautiful, but i can't take credit for the sharing. it's preserved right here on this website; the whole post is wonderful, it makes me cry every time i read it.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/4/entry-382-from-harriet/page__st__160

 

i do think it would be a lovely ending.

[DPT24]

A lot of people expect Rand to disappear or go into seclusion, and that is possible. However, I've been thinking he might end up (with a new body?) as Elayne's First Prince of the Sword, if they both survive. No real reason to think that, other than it's a bit different from the usual "rand disappears and lives a quite life" theory and in TGH when Rand sees his alternate lives, one of them has him in the Royal Guard.

[Phariah]

some of my favorite series have ended w/the hero dying or transending his mortal body in the end. i would like for Rand to live for a little while after at the least. let him enjoy life and his children for some time he will have earned it.

 

 

as to the DO dying. the DO seems to know some of what has been going on yet he also is ingnorant of others as seem when he an Demie talk in SG. what i can see is Fain attempts to kill/ absorbe the DO and gets sealed in the bore. Fain than becomes the DO. this would be why he has been hunted by the DF / Forsaken. the DO had just realized who Fain had become since he was Fain in a previous turning of the Wheel. he has some remnants of memory of his life last time this is how he knows of certain things that are happening or will happen. this is all a WAG. what i really want is for Perrin to implant his hammer into Fain's forehead tbh.

[SuperFade]

I'm still hoping that the Dark One will be killed, the axle of the Wheel broken which would give birth to linear time and Rand survives at least a short time after TG to spend some much deserved time with his loved ones.

[OptimusPrime]

Rand must die, I will feel cheated if he doesnt. But I will feel just as cheated if he doesnt survive it. I want to see how RJ would pull it off, its one of the few things Ive been sticking with the series all this time to see. Obviously there have been plenty of hints at how it could happen, I actually think it could happen twice and still not be cheap. The first, Demandred kills him and Nynaeve uses the weave Moghedien did on Birgitte, then someone bonds him. I nominate Moiraine. Second, the bodyswap, using Moridin as the escape route out of the sacrifice. To live you must die was paraphrasing, the Finns saw Moridin as part of Rand is what I think, so Moridin dying in Rands place via the bodyswap would qualify in my head. And the thing is, because Moridin has been altering his Taim face for his disguise all this time, that means Taims original face is forgotten, meaning Rand will wear Taims real face after the bodyswap and can still live in peace, because nobody remembers the face of the real Taim that Rand will end up with.

 

I dont actually think he will die twice, just once, the bodyswap version.

[Duskfire]

I agree, Rand should die permanently. He dies defeating the Dark One, happy and content that he had played out his part and he found a reason to fight. And also...

 

"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."

 

should be the last line in the book.

[OptimusPrime]

"He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone."

 

Yes it should. A symbol that the rest of the world doesnt know he survived

[Mongoose]

In a way, I think the most profound part of ToM for me was Aviendha's viewings, as they both showed that the Last Battle doesn't resolve everything, and shows a glimpse of what the world will be like after.

 

I'm pretty sure than unless Aviendha is already pregnant, that Rand survives the Last Battle, at least for a time, because she has children with him. But I'm more intruiged with the battle and the Sealings than his fate.

 

For the Battle, I'm almost kind of disappointed that it seems Niall was right. I remember him saying the Last Battle would be like the Trolloc Wars with hordes of Shadowspawn spilling out of the Blight. Up untill KoD, I thought the Last Battle would end up being more of a 'civil war', Aiel against Aiel, Dragonsworn vs Dragon Deniers. Throughout the middle books, it seemed the more nations Rand subdued, the more internal strife emerged. Rand's revelation and the masses of Shadowspawn pouring forth have seemingly dispelled that theory, which I find somewhat disappointing.

 

Also the Sealing will be interesting, as I figured Lews Therin had the right idea, but it was merely the lack of female channelers that doomed it. Yet from what I've read on here, it seems like if they HAD gone along with his plan, it would have merely tainted Saidar as well. So it'll be interesting to see what method they use.

[graendalzooescapee]

I'm still hoping that the Dark One will be killed, the axle of the Wheel broken which would give birth to linear time and Rand survives at least a short time after TG to spend some much deserved time with his loved ones.

 

I have thought for a long time that something like this was the most philosophically satisfying ending. The grafting of an apocalyptic scenario onto a cyclical time model (especially when the apocalypse comes in the middle of the cycle) just isn't intellectually sound otherwise. And RJ gave enough hints--Herid Fel's speech, his comments on linear time in the audiobook interview--to indicate that he knew he was writing a paradox, rather than just falling into one.

 

If I'm right, however, this is the part I'm really worried that BS will screw up. He's really not good at philosophy. The arguments in Way of Kings are pretty badly reasoned, for example.

[SingleMort]

I'm still hoping that the Dark One will be killed, the axle of the Wheel broken which would give birth to linear time and Rand survives at least a short time after TG to spend some much deserved time with his loved ones.

 

I have thought for a long time that something like this was the most philosophically satisfying ending. The grafting of an apocalyptic scenario onto a cyclical time model (especially when the apocalypse comes in the middle of the cycle) just isn't intellectually sound otherwise. And RJ gave enough hints--Herid Fel's speech, his comments on linear time in the audiobook interview--to indicate that he knew he was writing a paradox, rather than just falling into one.

 

If I'm right, however, this is the part I'm really worried that BS will screw up. He's really not good at philosophy. The arguments in Way of Kings are pretty badly reasoned, for example.

 

philosophically satisfying? That's an interesting choice of words. Surely the "apocalyptic scenario" comes at the end of the cycle. Example being Lews Therin Telamon's sealing of the bore and subsequent breaking of the world was the end of the Age of Legends. Presumably The Last Battle with Rand and the Dark One will also mark the end of This Age.

 

Seondly I am not sure what you mean by a paradox simply because the Ages repeat. I mean every book starts with "The Wheel of Time turns and Ages come and pass...and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it borth comes again." I thought that is the nature of the whole WoT universe, by breaking the Wheel and killing the Dark One (and thereby evil itself) you'd destroy the pattern and do something which should be impossible. I mean this cycle is like a cycle of life. In life you can't type in some cheat like a computer game to give you infinate health. Surely if the Ages of the Wheel and the thousands of years of history of this world tell us anything it's that the struggle against good and evil is never-ending. I don't see why that's a paradox. I mean isn't that what it is like in real life? Tearing all that down would be the paradox to me. Saying that the Ages come and go, that the end becomes the beginning, death becomes birth and life goes on. Then saying 'Oh but if you do THIS and THIS', the fundamental nature of the universe is comletely flipped on its head, the Dark One and evil itself can be defeated in one blow and we can all live in a world of happy bunnies and pink fluffy clouds forever and day. I mean the Drak One has been around since the creation of the world. Surely it stands to reason that he been around all this because he's MEANT to be. If the Dark One has no purpose in the WoT universe than why did the Creator make him at all, or destroy him?

 

Edit: Just had a thought. If all that happens and the pattern is destroyed wouldn't that also invalidate all of Min's viewings like if the Dark One had destroyed the pattern himself?

[randsc]

What I really want is for Rand to die at the moment of his triumph at TG, and as conciousness fades, to hear in his mind, "I have won again, Lews Therin."

[Erunion]

What I really want is for Rand to die at the moment of his triumph at TG, and as conciousness fades, to hear in his mind, "I have won again, Lews Therin."

That would be... Chilling. And a fascinating ending.

 

I do think that Rand should have a permanent death. I really like his character, and think that he deserves to come back, but I think it would be better story-wise, that if he did die and come back, that he would win TG then die again and not come back.

Until the second age came again, that is (still fulfilling the whole 'to live you must die' thing, without Rand growing old on a farm somewhere).

 

Still, I look forward to whatever Jordan had planned. I'm sure it'll blow us all away.

[pamela]

My feelings are ambivalent- I want Rand to die once and for all and I also want him to die and then be resurrected. The former could be the best from the literary PoV (the sad endings are usually the best ones, though they hurt), the latter would be the best for me or otherwise I will certainly die of crying. I would like to see him alive after the victorious battle... but, yeah, what would he actually do, what would they all do? I suppose it's better not to worry about that and think too much, but trust that RJ invented the best ending possible. I want to be surprised and amazed.

 

I think the DO is not to die. I used to wonder whether the war between him and the Creator was to end and if the Shadow could be annihilated... and if they would go to heaven then But having read all the interviews etc made me wiser. I guess, since both the Creator and the DO are beyond the Pattern the are not actually going to destroy each other, they just provide a balance. But... hmmm, right now I started to wonder again (I suppose the thread like this already exists and of course all the question below are the RAFO ones... but what do you think?): RJ said that the Dragon can only lose once- so let's say the Light's champion is finally annihilated by the DO... and now what? Ok, he can destroy the Pattern, transform the world due to his own will etc, but is it equal to the Creator's defeat? Don't think so- he will still exist. But it would certainly be the world's defeat, the Dragon's defeat. Anyway, the eternal war continues... and what will the Creator do? Will he heve another champion? Will the tables turn and he will be imprisoned instead of the DO (Don't think it would be possible given that he was the one who created the DO and thus had an advatage over him... but maybe the DO was not actually created and they are both eternal beings (probably yes)? If the war is endless- and they cannot destroy each other or do not intend to do it, then the win simply boils down to: who created the world on his own image and who is confined. Am I right, is this all about that? Anyway, still I don't really understand why the DO desires to convert Rand to the Shadow just as strongly as he wants to break free (or at least he did want- I haven't even read the book 10 yet), if the former means a draw and the latter means a win. Of course He could have lied to the Forsaken.

[Zentari]

ITT: Opinions, by the truckload.

 

What I really want is for Rand to die at the moment of his triumph at TG, and as conciousness fades, to hear in his mind, "I have won again, Lews Therin."

^That would be an awesome twist , though most likely left unexplored.