multiple Dreamers among the Forsaken

[SylvanFox]

Egwene learns how to sort of... trance out and enter the dream world anytime she wants. We can probably assume that this trick is also known by the female dreamer among the Forsaken. So the only reasons for entering in the flesh would be increased power, or because she could not enter by going to sleep at the time... Nighttime... (Well, Perrin is asleep, at least, so it must be nighttime.)

 

T'A'R is where Moghedien seems to prefer to be. I don't remember her doing anything in the waking world. She is such a coward, I'd think she'd prefer to act in a place where she felt she had the advantage. If she were a Dreamer, she would certainly have an advantage in using T'A'R like it was home.

[Ananta]

Again people, there is a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking. All of the Forsaken can enter Tel'aran'rhiod - Demandred notes in LOC that anyone who can channel can be trained to do this and weaned off the ter'angreal. Probably only the most Talented of them - Moghedien, Lanfear, and Ishamael - actually have prophetic dreams.

 

He does? I don't have the book at hand so could you provide a quote or some such?

[herid]

 

 

Oh on an aside I also feel like Lanfear is the female dreamer but I bring up an interesting point from the books. At one point (I think it's in TDR) when Perrin's in TAR he sees an archway leading into a room with white hangings and the most beautiful woman ever through the arch who looks surprised to see him. This is obviously Lanfear, though when she notices him the door inside the arch turns sideways and winks out like a gateway. Why would Lanfear need to use a gateway to enter TAR? Does she just do it so she's more powerful there (since from Moggy's POV you're more powerful in the flesh)?

 

I don't remember this. could you find the exact quote please? Also, Lanfear is definitely a dreamwalker. She enters Rand's dreams and later talks of breaking into his dreams past his wards. Nobody but a dreamwalker can do that. Whether or not she is also a Dreamer is a different question.

Again people, there is a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking.

Exactly, which is why I really want to make sure that BS meant Dreaming rather than dreamwalking. I know that he is aware of the difference but still, this was twitter and he may have misspoke. Because if he says that several Forsaken are Dreamers I would assume that it should be possible to see hints of that in the books. Apart from Ishy who does know stuff about the future I don't really see any such hints. All of the things discussed in this thread thus far were related to dreamwalking, not Dreaming. The only possible hints of Dreaming related to Lanfear that I can think of is that she talked to Mat and Perrin as if she knew something about their future. For example:

 

“I don’t,” he said, though a piece of him shouted that he lied. The Horn of Valere. The Horn rang out, and the wild charge began. Death rode at his shoulder, and yet she waited ahead, too. His lover. His destroyer. “No! I am a blacksmith.”

 

Her smile was pitying. “Such a little thing to want. You must not listen to those who would try to turn you from your destiny. They would demean you, debase you. Destroy you. Fighting fate can only bring pain. Why choose pain, when you can have glory? When your name can be remembered alongside all the heroes of legend?”

 

“I am no hero.”

“You don’t know the half of what you are. Of what you can be. Come, share a cup with me, to destiny and glory.” There was a shining silver cup in her hand, filled with blood-red wine. “Drink.”

-TDR, Ch 4

However, this might simply be because she knows that he is a ta'veren.

All of the Forsaken can enter Tel'aran'rhiod - Demandred notes in LOC that anyone who can channel can be trained to do this and weaned off the ter'angreal.

I had the same thought but it's actually not completely clear from what Demandred mentioned. Here is the exact quote

 

 

Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter’angreal by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what was in her head, but her words and expression had been plain enough. She did not like what al’Thor was doing here, not in the least, and meant to do something about it. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.

 

“Let the Lord of Chaos rule,” he told the thrones—though he still wished he knew why it had to be so—and opened a gateway to leave Tel’aran’rhiod.

-LoC, Ch 7

 

Note that Demandred himself weaves a gateway to get out of TAR in this scene. However, I do suspect that you may be right because there is a glimpse of that in Avi's training. Early on the Wise Ones tell Nynaeve that they don't know how to pull somebody into TAR. Yet, later Avi mentioned that she can enter TAR with a help of a dreamwalker (can't find the quote at the moment). Apparently, this is something different than pulling a person in. So together with what Demandred said this might imply that everybody can be taught to enter TAR.

At any rate we know for sure of several Forsaken who are dreamwalkers. This has been mentioned already in the thread. They are Lanfear, Moggy, Bel'al (he snatched Alviarin from her dream), Asmodean (he was there with Lanfear in Rand's dream once), Mesaana, Aran'gar (who can find Egwene's dream if she sleeps close to Egwene) and Ishy/Moridin. I think that's it. The others, including Demandred are not certain I think. They might be using gateways to enter TAR.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

That'd be interesting if Moiraine somehow got her three possible visions of Rand's future by spying on Lanfear's own Dreams. I have no idea what kinds of prophecies a Forsaken Dreamer might issue, other than Moridin's usual stuff about the endless confrontation between Light and Shadow.

[Sharaman]

Mildly OT - is Slayer also a dreamer?

[mb]

Arangar I take was not accessing Egwene's dreams. I take Arangar was passing dreams to Egwene; which any channeler can do, not necessarily Dreamwalkers.

[Finnssss22]

The only thing Moggy has said is about her belief that she can do things in TAR than Lanfear can only dream of.

Is it really written like that?

 

Because that is very ironic since all they are doing is pretty much dreaming.

 

(Not really relevant to discussion)

 

 

tSR chpt 52 "Need" is a wealth of information on Dreamwalking and since BS was just finishing up tSR on his re-read, it's a good bet that chapter inspired his tweet.

[herid]

Arangar I take was not accessing Egwene's dreams. I take Arangar was passing dreams to Egwene; which any channeler can do, not necessarily Dreamwalkers.

 

She had considered two slits. Her abilities here were not as large as some—she could not find Egwene's dreams without the girl right beside her—but she could manage the clothes she wanted.

-KoD, Ch 3

This means that Aran'gar was actually accessing Egwene's dreams which can only be done by a dreamwalker. So Aran'gar was a dreamwalker, even if a weak one.

[Cybertrolloc]

The only thing Moggy has said is about her belief that she can do things in TAR than Lanfear can only dream of.

Is it really written like that?

 

Because that is very ironic since all they are doing is pretty much dreaming.

 

(Not really relevant to discussion)

Birgette said it about Moggy/Lanfear, might as well be an exact quote because it's a good pun :)

 

Anyway, I smell changed premise in the wind. Hopefully it sucks less than the balefire nonsense.

[OptimusPrime]

Mildly OT - is Slayer also a dreamer?

 

Personally I doubt it although theres nothing to say either way. He did say the Dark One had given him many abilities though. Changing into Luc is one, controlling T'A'R another, creating Darkhounds... Three does not feel like "many" so theres something else there I think, but Dreaming I doubt.

 

Unless either Luc or Isam was a Woflbrother, I'd say Slayer is not a Dreamer.

[Sharaman]

You don't know that being a Wolfbrother automatically makes somebody a Dreamer even though it does give them control/ power in TAR. Anyway OT speculation.

If the choices are restricted to Dem/ Elan for the male, then it "must" be Moridin who's the Dreamer.

[herid]

Mildly OT - is Slayer also a dreamer?

 

Personally I doubt it although theres nothing to say either way. He did say the Dark One had given him many abilities though. Changing into Luc is one, controlling T'A'R another, creating Darkhounds... Three does not feel like "many" so theres something else there I think, but Dreaming I doubt.

 

Unless either Luc or Isam was a Woflbrother, I'd say Slayer is not a Dreamer.

Slayer is neither a dreamwalker nor a wolfbrother. BS and RJ said so.

 

 

Towers of Midnight Book Tour, Midnight release, Provo, UT 2 November 2010 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

Matt: Can Slayer dreamwalk in Tel'aran'rhiod or only go there in the flesh?

Brandon: Slayer cannot dreamwalk (100% sure)

Dragon*Con 2010 Q&A, 4 September 2010 - Marie Curie reporting

 

Q: I've been kind of interpreting the Luc/Isam/Slayer as basically the dark side equivalent of a Wolfbrother. Is that totally off base?

Terez: Robert Jordan says so.

Q: It's totally off base?

Brandon: Yeah. ... He is unique. How about that?

Q: Okay.

 

USAToday Chat - 5 January 2004

 

Long Island, NY: Is Slayer a corrupted Wolfbrother?

Robert Jordan: No.

 

 

There is zero evidence that he is a Dreamer so I see no reason to speculate in that direction.

 

If the choices are restricted to Dem/ Elan for the male, then it "must" be Moridin who's the Dreamer.

I don't think we have to consider only the Forsaken that are currently alive. But certainly, Ishy/Moridin is much more likely than Demandred. In view of the BS comment about multiple Dreamers among the Forsaken, I'm quote sure that he is one. the real question is who are the others.

[Sharaman]

Thanks - I had this vague memory that Slayer's abilities in that direction had been disproved. Those quotes are useful.

My interpretation of the combination of Brandon's tweet + ToM scenes is that at least two of the currently alive FS are Dreamers (more of the original 13 may have been).

[Lacanos]

Again people, there is a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking. All of the Forsaken can enter Tel'aran'rhiod - Demandred notes in LOC that anyone who can channel can be trained to do this and weaned off the ter'angreal. Probably only the most Talented of them - Moghedien, Lanfear, and Ishamael - actually have prophetic dreams.

 

That was the initial thought I had reading that scene, but I'm no longer convinced. What Demandred says is that it was a minor ter'angreal used for training beginners. Could that not as easily be explained away by saying that beginners need some way to control their entry to TAR (because I'm pretty sure we had already established Egwene was a Dreamer [and yes, I'm aware there's a difference, but all dreamers are dreamwalkers too, while the converse isn't true]). Furthermore, if it was possible for all to become dreamwalkers, you think Nynaeve or Elayne might have developed this; would be a good plot line and they've been entering TAR for a long time (when travelling from Tanicho to Salidar, Nynaeve was apparently entering TAR most evenings). Plus it would be a plotline you'd expect to be realised if that was RJ's intention.

[Lynander]

What about Taim? Some people think (me included) that he could be a new forsaken. And how do you count Aginor (or is it Balty)? as a male or female lol

[Phariah]

well i have to agree with other that it is Moridin, Lanfear and Moghie for the dreamers.

 

as someone brought up before Lanfear has an insight into Mat and Perrin after just being released. as if she had some prophetic dream to give her information.

 

than we have Moridin. he spent plenty of years partially bound in the bore where he only lived in dreams. he knows alot about the future. he knows things and how to initiate things that will effect the future. he was setting strings tied to people that would be important in the future. strings that would be around the Dragon w/ out even know who the Dragon was. could some of the Dark Ones prophecies actually be Ishy sending dreams to someone?

 

Moghie. no direct info but to claim to know more of the Dream world than Lanfear her abilities have to be remarkable. she knew where to track down the one seal in Tarabon. could she do that because she was a dreamer?

 

these 3 seem to be the strongest in the Dream World than any of the other Forsaken. it would than be the most logical step to say that as Dreamers they would have the edge over the others since it is more natural for them to be in the Dream World.

[Finnssss22]

What about Taim? Some people think (me included) that he could be a new forsaken. And how do you count Aginor (or is it Balty)? as a male or female lol

 

Most take Egwene's dream of 6 Black Towers as the indication. If Taim was a "new" Forsaken, then there should of been 7 at that time.

 

Balthamel/Aran'gar is generally counted as a male because "she" channels Saidin.

RJ has said in the past that channeling comes from the soul and that souls are distinctly male and female. Her body might be female now but her soul is male.

[yoniy0]

There is a difference between being a prophetic Dreamer and being able to access someone's dreams. Two totally different things.

Okay. So we have Dreaming, which is having prophetic (though not as certain as Foretellings) dreams, and we have Dreamwalking, which is entering TAR at will. We also know that the WO and Egwene (which are all both) can enter that void with people's dreams, from which they can spy on - and even enter - other people's dreams. Supposedly (and that's just me speculating) that's where you need to be to pull someone into TAR as well.

Now - how can you tell if that ability is part of being a Dreamer or part of being a Dreamwalker? I always assumed the former, but both you and @herid seem to know it's the latter.

 

Also, I disagree with your interpretation that Dreamwalking is a learned skill. I think Demandred was referring to the ability to enter TAR in the flesh, which supposedly newbies can't do (a Gateway takes a certain level of strength, not to mention it's not a good idea to go there in the flesh before you know what you're doing). If he could enter it the way Egwene does, it's weird for him to do it in the flesh just to spy on Elayne.

[herid]

There is a difference between being a prophetic Dreamer and being able to access someone's dreams. Two totally different things.

Okay. So we have Dreaming, which is having prophetic (though not as certain as Foretellings) dreams, and we have Dreamwalking, which is entering TAR at will. We also know that the WO and Egwene (which are all both) can enter that void with people's dreams, from which they can spy on - and even enter - other people's dreams. Supposedly (and that's just me speculating) that's where you need to be to pull someone into TAR as well.

Now - how can you tell if that ability is part of being a Dreamer or part of being a Dreamwalker? I always assumed the former, but both you and @herid seem to know it's the latter.

mostly because it makes a lot more sense to relate this to dreamwalking rather then Dreaming. I always took Dreaming to simply mean having prophectic dreams, no more and no less. entering the void between TAR and the waking world seems a completely different skill, very close to entering TAR itself.

 

RJ sort of corroborated this:

 

 

 

scifi.com chat 14 November 2000

 

Ran: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

 

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

 

Egwene implied as much too

 

The way the Wise Ones had taught her to put herself to sleep was simple. Eyes closed, feeling each part of the body relax in turn, breathing in time with her heartbeat, mind unfocused and drifting, all but one tiny corner, drifting. Sleep swept over her in moments, but it was the sleep of a dreamwalker.

Formless, she floated deep within an ocean of stars, infinite points of light glimmering in an infinite sea of darkness, fireflies beyond counting flickering in an endless night. Those were dreams, the dreams of everyone sleeping anywhere in the world, maybe of everyone in all possible worlds, and this was the gap between reality and Tel’aran’rhiod, the space separating the waking world from the World of Dreams. Wherever she looked ten thousand fireflies vanished as people woke, and ten thousand new were born to replace them. A vast ever-changing array of sparkling beauty.

-CoS, Ch 10

[mb]

Arangar I take was not accessing Egwene's dreams. I take Arangar was passing dreams to Egwene; which any channeler can do, not necessarily Dreamwalkers.

She had considered two slits. Her abilities here were not as large as some—she could not find Egwene's dreams without the girl right beside her—but she could manage the clothes she wanted.

-KoD, Ch 3

This means that Aran'gar was actually accessing Egwene's dreams which can only be done by a dreamwalker. So Aran'gar was a dreamwalker, even if a weak one.

Ok.

So just these seem to be Dreamwalkers:: Ishamael/Moridin, Lanfear/Cyndane, Balthamel/Arangar, Moghedien

 

The other 9 I take need to use a gateway to enter Telaranrhiod.

[yoniy0]

Well, that's something. But being a Dreamer is more than just having your dreams mean something. It's also the ability she has to be aware of her dreams, being able to sort them and recall them perfectly. To me, that's a closer connection to seeing other people's dreams than walking TAR, but to each his own, I guess. Just, let's not take it as canon unless RJ actually said so. If not, Lanfear's presence in Rand's dreams is an indication that she's one.

[Terez]

There is a difference between being a prophetic Dreamer and being able to access someone's dreams. Two totally different things.

Okay. So we have Dreaming, which is having prophetic (though not as certain as Foretellings) dreams, and we have Dreamwalking, which is entering TAR at will. We also know that the WO and Egwene (which are all both) can enter that void with people's dreams, from which they can spy on - and even enter - other people's dreams. Supposedly (and that's just me speculating) that's where you need to be to pull someone into TAR as well.

Now - how can you tell if that ability is part of being a Dreamer or part of being a Dreamwalker? I always assumed the former, but both you and @herid seem to know it's the latter.

I actually disagree with herid's comment on it, or rather I don't think Egwene's ignorance on how to teach it to Nynaeve and Elayne should be seen as definitive in any way. I doubt highly that it is limited to Dreamers, and I even doubt it is limited to those who are natural Dreamwalkers (assuming that it is possible to be one, but not the other).

 

Also, I disagree with your interpretation that Dreamwalking is a learned skill. I think Demandred was referring to the ability to enter TAR in the flesh, which supposedly newbies can't do (a Gateway takes a certain level of strength, not to mention it's not a good idea to go there in the flesh before you know what you're doing). If he could enter it the way Egwene does, it's weird for him to do it in the flesh just to spy on Elayne.

The Forsaken prefer entering in the flesh most of the time, but we're not sure why aside from convenience. The Wise Ones think it is evil, though, so that might give a clue. Moghedien says it makes you stronger in the Power somehow, or perhaps it simply limits the ability of the Dreamwalker to manipulate. Birgitte says it makes you weaker when it comes to ability to control the Dream, but if Demandred isn't very good at it anyway, then he might not care about that aspect. We have Egwene's weaning to suggest that entering Tel'aran'rhiod can be trained, but we have nothing to suggest that it is in any way difficult to make a gateway to go there, unless you lack the requisite strength.

 

Well, that's something. But being a Dreamer is more than just having your dreams mean something. It's also the ability she has to be aware of her dreams, being able to sort them and recall them perfectly.

Egwene had to be trained to do that, though I imagine it's a relatively easy thing for a Dreamer to do.

[yoniy0]

I actually disagree with herid's comment on it, or rather I don't think Egwene's ignorance on how to teach it to Nynaeve and Elayne should be seen as definitive in any way. I doubt highly that it is limited to Dreamers, and I even doubt it is limited to those who are natural Dreamwalkers (assuming that it is possible to be one, but not the other).

Disregarding your last comment for a second (it'd be funny if there are two distinct Talents that always manifest together), I'm still not clear on why you consider dream-surfing (for lack of a better term) part of being a Dreamwalker rather than a Dreamer.

[herid]

Well, that's something. But being a Dreamer is more than just having your dreams mean something. It's also the ability she has to be aware of her dreams, being able to sort them and recall them perfectly. To me, that's a closer connection to seeing other people's dreams than walking TAR, but to each his own, I guess. Just, let's not take it as canon unless RJ actually said so. If not, Lanfear's presence in Rand's dreams is an indication that she's one.

as i said, I'm quite sure on this. there are plenty of in-book quotes supporting this. I gave you one but there are more.

 

Egwene, talking to Nyn and Elayne after contacting them in their ordinary dreams.

Before Nynaeve could open her mouth, Egwene said, “Have you two brainless flap-tongues become witless ninnies? If I ask you to keep something to yourselves, do you immediately tell the first person you meet? Did it never occur to you that you don’t have to tell everyone everything? I thought you two were good at keeping secrets.” Nynaeve’s cheeks grew warmer; at least she could not possibly be as scarlet as Elayne. Egwene was not quite finished. “As for how I did it, I can’t teach you. You have to be a Dreamwalker.

-FoH, Ch 49

 

That tiny part of her still wished she had waited to be overtaken by his dream. Overtaken and absorbed by it. If a dreamwalker loved somebody to distraction, or hated them beyond reason, most especially if the emotion was returned, she could be pulled into that person’s dream; she drew the dream, or it drew her, as a lodestone drew iron filings.

-CoS, Ch 10

by CoS Egwene is a trained dreamwalker and the Aiel dreamwalkers who taught her would be quite experienced in the matter not only personally but because of a long line of Aiel dreamwalkers before them who'd have accumulated a lot of knowledge on the subject.

[Terez]

I actually disagree with herid's comment on it, or rather I don't think Egwene's ignorance on how to teach it to Nynaeve and Elayne should be seen as definitive in any way. I doubt highly that it is limited to Dreamers, and I even doubt it is limited to those who are natural Dreamwalkers (assuming that it is possible to be one, but not the other).

Disregarding your last comment for a second (it'd be funny if there are two distinct Talents that always manifest together), I'm still not clear on why you consider dream-surfing (for lack of a better term) part of being a Dreamwalker rather than a Dreamer.

I don't. I think we don't know.