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Taim and Asmodean


Mandro
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And yet in the same breath Taim has a reason to hold back, Logain didnt. No way to tell.

 

There is a cap on how strong you can be. Let us say Rand achieved this cap by ToM. There will be Forsaken very close behind him on that scale even now. You cannot judge Taims strength based on what he showed Rand, because that would be like trusting his word. Rand hismelf notes that Taim could have been holding back, whereas Logain says outright that he isnt as strong as Rand. One False Dragon has potential reasons to lie, the other doesnt. I would hardly expect Taim to waltz in and show Rand just how much competition he can put up.

 

exactly, either way it tells us nothing and we are no closer to figuring out who is stronger out of Logain and Taim.

We simply have no accurate information to go on.

Edited by Finnssss
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I disagree; I dont think Taim was holding back at all. He needed to impress Rand, needed to show that he was powerful, that he could be counted on in terms of strength (and then later knowledge.) If we go by the assumption that Taim is a darkfriend, then he needed to get close to Rand, and essentially was told to do anything to do that (i.e the seal, etc etc.)

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I don't believe he actually died at that moment. I did until RJ made that statement about the where being a factor why the DO couldn't bring him back.

Unless you're willing to believe that dieing in the Caemlyn palace wine cellar is some how shielded by the DO's touch...

 

He had to be taken some where else and his body was not found there.

 

"Death took him" as in his soon to be killer literally took him.

 

In ToM, Verin's letter indicates the unsecure Waygate in Caemlyn. Any possible relevance?

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We have no way to compare Logain and Taim strength wise. Since we have already seen Rand compare himself to Taim, and then had Logain compare himself to Rand... Taim is nearly on par with Rand, Logains comment in KoD made me think the difference in strengths between Rand and Logain was more than enough to be not "perhaps as strong as Rand himself" whereas Taim might have been holding back.

 

No, we cannot be sure of any sort of direct comparison between them. Of course, everyone knows what I think about this by now.

 

I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

 

Say hello to Moridin for me

 

YET WE DO! have a way of comparing Taim and Logain as I said. I keep getting told about how narrow the timelines have been, but you igore that Rand had VERY LIKELY become more powerful in his use of the power since he gauged himself to taim, and when he stood with logain at the manor house. The same terms are used to describe like situations, but with different people at different times.

 

And I think it's inarguable that rands performance at maradon was more impressive than his performance at the manor house with Logain next to him. And when rand measured himself against taim was before Dumais Wells, and The Butchers Fields, and With the Chodan Khal.

 

Rand is OBVIOUSLY more powerful in the defense of maredon than he was at the manor house, but somehow he stayed static in the time since granting taim amnesty to when he stood at the manor house?

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Rand is OBVIOUSLY more powerful in the defense of maredon than he was at the manor house

Is he? Or simply more capable? Better trained? More dexterous?

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We have no way to compare Logain and Taim strength wise. Since we have already seen Rand compare himself to Taim, and then had Logain compare himself to Rand... Taim is nearly on par with Rand, Logains comment in KoD made me think the difference in strengths between Rand and Logain was more than enough to be not "perhaps as strong as Rand himself" whereas Taim might have been holding back.

 

No, we cannot be sure of any sort of direct comparison between them. Of course, everyone knows what I think about this by now.

 

I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

 

Say hello to Moridin for me

 

YET WE DO! have a way of comparing Taim and Logain as I said. I keep getting told about how narrow the timelines have been, but you igore that Rand had VERY LIKELY become more powerful in his use of the power since he gauged himself to taim, and when he stood with logain at the manor house. The same terms are used to describe like situations, but with different people at different times.

 

And I think it's inarguable that rands performance at maradon was more impressive than his performance at the manor house with Logain next to him. And when rand measured himself against taim was before Dumais Wells, and The Butchers Fields, and With the Chodan Khal.

 

Rand is OBVIOUSLY more powerful in the defense of maredon than he was at the manor house, but somehow he stayed static in the time since granting taim amnesty to when he stood at the manor house?

 

My comment about comparisons was more about Logain and Taim themselves. Of course, we know Rand is more powerful than Logain for definite. For me, I cant say I am willing to believe anything Taim willingly put forward about himself, and that includes all of the times we ever saw him show his power level in front of Rand.

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I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

 

Taim says he can't use a sword. Do you believe him? I don't, for those precise reasons you cited - also check Narishma's musings on the subject. Taim is probably a blademaster or near-blademaster, who assiduously conceals his ability with a sword. It's his last ace-in-the-hole.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

 

Taim says he can't use a sword. Do you believe him? I don't, for those precise reasons you cited - also check Narishma's musings on the subject. Taim is probably a blademaster or near-blademaster, who assiduously conceals his ability with a sword. It's his last ace-in-the-hole.

That makes complete sense.

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I'm listening to Lord of Choas and I just noticed that Taim does not know how to use a sword. Taim says to Rand What good are swords, that he can barely avoid stabbing him and has never felt the lack. Taim is a borderlander where every man is trained to use a sword, and there is that scene in Towers of Midnight where the boy becomes a man by receiving his sword. Taim would have been trained to use a sword before he found out he could channel.

 

Taim says he can't use a sword. Do you believe him? I don't, for those precise reasons you cited - also check Narishma's musings on the subject. Taim is probably a blademaster or near-blademaster, who assiduously conceals his ability with a sword. It's his last ace-in-the-hole.

this is a seriously perverse logic. Taim not only says that he doesn't use a sword, he never ever uses one onscreen or is mentioned as even so much as wearing a sword. More importantly, he doesn't teach any of his lackeys how to use a sword. Rand comments on this when he fights Rochaid and Kisman in Far Madding.

 

Raefar Kisman stood gaping down at Rochaid, the blade he had meant to stab through Rand instead driven into Rochaid’s chest. Blood bubbled on the Murandian’s lips, and he dug his heels into the ground and bloodied his hands on the sharp steel as though he could push it out of him. Of only average height, and pale for a Tairen, Kisman wore clothes as plain as Rand’s except for the sword belt. Hiding that beneath his cloak, he could have gone anywhere in Far Madding without being noticed.

 

His dismay lasted only an instant. As Rand rose, sword ready in both hands, Kisman jerked his own blade free and did not look at his thrashing accomplice again. He watched Rand, and his hands shifted nervously on the long hilt of his sword. No doubt he was one of those so proud of being able to use the Power as a weapon that he had disdained really learning the sword. Rand had not disdained. Rochaid gave a last twitch and was still, staring up at the sky.

-WH, Ch 22

Taim's cohorts are never seen to be any good with swords (they often don't even wear them) and share their master's disdain for them.

Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-and-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rand’s arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

 

Two more black-coated men followed at his heels, a bald fellow with a long grizzled beard and leering blue eyes, and a younger man, snake-slim and dark-haired, with the sneering arrogance young men often adopted before they learned better. Both wore the silver Sword and red-enameled Dragon on their tall collars. None of the three wore a sword on his hip, though; they did not need swords. Suddenly the sitting room felt smaller, and crowded.

-WH, prologue

 

How can you possibly twist it to imply that Taim must be a blademaster?

Edited by herid
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I wonder how strong Taim is?

 

We know that Logain is "ALMOST" as strong as Rand. Verin, Alanna speculated that Rand may be as strong as Logain...and according Siuan if only 5 held his shield, he may have broken through.

 

So Logain OP strength = Demandred, Aginor

 

 

Taim? I think Taim only comes close to Rand...thus similar to Sammael and Rahvin.

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I thought that the WHERE? associated with asmo's inability to be brought back was Caemlyn palace after that huge balefire fight Rand and Rahvin had. Since Balefire clearly inhibits the Dark One's control over the world, I figured that the massive amounts of Balefire Rand threw about in the fight in the palace caused a localized disruption in the pattern that physically prevented the Dark One from returning Asmo to another body, the same goes for anyone else who died and stayed dead in this fight (though the only human deaths were Rahvin's destruction and any dead aiel in the battle).

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I thought that the WHERE? associated with asmo's inability to be brought back was Caemlyn palace after that huge balefire fight Rand and Rahvin had. Since Balefire clearly inhibits the Dark One's control over the world, I figured that the massive amounts of Balefire Rand threw about in the fight in the palace caused a localized disruption in the pattern that physically prevented the Dark One from returning Asmo to another body, the same goes for anyone else who died and stayed dead in this fight (though the only human deaths were Rahvin's destruction and any dead aiel in the battle).

I haven't seen anything that says Balefire causes localized disruptions in the pattern. I have seen the weave almost unravel and events not happen but when I think of local disruptions I think of Path of Daggers when Elayne unraveled her weave.

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when I think of local disruptions I think of Path of Daggers when Elayne unraveled her weave.

If you're referring to what Rand and his Ashaman felt during the Seanchan campaign, that was an effect of the improper use of the Bowl. RJ said so.

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I haven't seen anything that says Balefire causes localized disruptions in the pattern. I have seen the weave almost unravel and events not happen but when I think of local disruptions I think of Path of Daggers when Elayne unraveled her weave.

 

In ToM when they're showing Graendal's PoV of the events after Natrin's Barrow, she Gateways to a location a distance away and can feel the Pattern buckling from the Balefire even at that distance.

 

Though I don't think 'proximity to Balefire' is why Asmodean couldn't come back. I honestly don't know how he died or why he couldn't come back (other than that the Dark One probably wouldn't have bothered to restore him).

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when I think of local disruptions I think of Path of Daggers when Elayne unraveled her weave.

If you're referring to what Rand and his Ashaman felt during the Seanchan campaign, that was an effect of the improper use of the Bowl. RJ said so.

He really said that? I'm surprised because nothing about Saidar being strange is mentioned until after Elayne unravels her weave but the bowl had already been used. I know there is a short time between those moments maybe it just to took a little while to take effect.

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I haven't seen anything that says Balefire causes localized disruptions in the pattern. I have seen the weave almost unravel and events not happen but when I think of local disruptions I think of Path of Daggers when Elayne unraveled her weave.

 

In ToM when they're showing Graendal's PoV of the events after Natrin's Barrow, she Gateways to a location a distance away and can feel the Pattern buckling from the Balefire even at that distance.

 

Though I don't think 'proximity to Balefire' is why Asmodean couldn't come back. I honestly don't know how he died or why he couldn't come back (other than that the Dark One probably wouldn't have bothered to restore him).

It couldn't have been balefire since it has to be both where and how he died. Balefire would always be a how.

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He really said that?

For a time it's been the issue of debate, and he wouldn't say much either way, but then he said this:

The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting

Someone asked him whether, if men had helped the Aes Sedai and Windfinders and Kin channel through the Bowl, the One Power would still have been screwed up. His implicit assumption was that the Bowl screwed things up....He went into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design parameters because of the advanced knowledge of the Windfinders. It was affecting a global pattern, when it was designed for only a small region. Men helping would not have changed anything, and the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but also along the "spokes" which radiated from that place.

So you see, it's pretty clear what happened (also, the fact that no one in Andor commented on any strangeness in the Power was a big clue to begin with).

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[it couldn't have been balefire since it has to be both where and how he died. Balefire would always be a how.

 

I never said it was, I was just pointing out that Balefire does have a disruptive effect on the pattern.

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when I think of local disruptions I think of Path of Daggers when Elayne unraveled her weave.

If you're referring to what Rand and his Ashaman felt during the Seanchan campaign, that was an effect of the improper use of the Bowl. RJ said so.

He really said that? I'm surprised because nothing about Saidar being strange is mentioned until after Elayne unravels her weave but the bowl had already been used. I know there is a short time between those moments maybe it just to took a little while to take effect.

Actually, Elayne notes the oddity when she weaves her Gateway, but attributes it to being tired: "The flows wavered in her grasp almost as if trying to twist free, then snapped into place so suddenly that she jumped; channeling when you were tired was not at all like other times, but this was the worst ever." POD6.
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I must admit I was a bit sad when Asmodean died as I quite liked his character in FOH and would have liked to see more scenes with him and Rand. For some after I had harbored a small hope that he would come back.

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I must admit I was a bit sad when Asmodean died as I quite liked his character in FOH and would have liked to see more scenes with him and Rand. For some after I had harbored a small hope that he would come back.

 

Lanfear and Asmodean disappearing/dying was probably the biggest blow to me while reading the series because I like ambiguous characters who have their own agenda rather than following the DO blindly. Some of the other Forsaken don't really have a personality surpassing that of a cliché pen&paper roleplaying game character I make in 2 minutes.

 

(Do I get nerd points for mentioning pen&paper roleplaying? Hope so, specially being female and all.)

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