Pedron Naill & The Children of the Light

[AmusableAlias]

So I'm reading LoC and I love Morgase but I hate whitecloaks. I know they are gunna end up playing a huge part later in the series. But I'll read like 4 chapters then stop reading after i finish a whitecloak chapter around Pedron Naill. They are so dull. I generally just don't like whitecloaks but I despise the dullness Pedron Naill brings to the series(so far at least...) Galad is about the only thing I can read about the whitecloaks without wishing the chapter would end ( believe you and me that is not something a WoT reader usually wants)

Does anyone else find the Whitecloaks to be their least favorite faction in WoT?

 

I've immersed myself back into WoT after my gf (now ex-gf) kicked me out of her life for going away to college and reading WoT and playing videogames..

Oh well thank you WoT for providing the best and longest fantasy series I know of that keeps my mind off the troubles of life

[Pygmalion79]

Does anyone else find the Whitecloaks to be their least favorite faction in WoT?

I think that the Whitecloaks are both the least interesting and the least well drawn faction in Randland. Jordan is able to make almost any character or group of characters appear attractive when he adopts their own viewpoint, with two regular exceptions: Masema and the Whitecloaks. This suggests to me that he did not particularly understand the viewpoint of those who adopt an ascetic lifestyle. But regardless of the reason, yes, they are often horrifically boring to read about.

 

I do disagree about Pedron Niall. He is one of the few Whitecloaks (Geofram Bornhald is another exception) that I somewhat enjoy reading.

[AmusableAlias]

Does anyone else find the Whitecloaks to be their least favorite faction in WoT?

I do disagree about Pedron Niall. He is one of the few Whitecloaks (Geofram Bornhald is another exception) that I somewhat enjoy reading.

 

Geofram Bornhald I do enjoy reading as well by I'm only about 350 pages into LoC and there have been only about 3 or 4 chapters around Pedron Naill and all have been so boring with the exception of the 5-6 pages fro Morgases POV mainly making fun of Whitecloaks :)

[Val Mickey]

I see most of the WC chapters as Balwer or Morgase chapters. That helps a bit.

Those chapters are much better than the time El and Nyn spend in Tanchico, and their return trip. Those are the only chapters I skip.

[David Selig]

Niall's PoV chapters were pretty good before Morgase came to Amadicia, after that the whole Whitecloacks plotline is a complete borefest for me until KoD, I always skip on reread.

 

Apart from that, the problem with the Whitecloacks is that in the early books they are presented as a really powerful organisation which will play a major role - they were able to harass the Aes Sedai at the outskirts of Tar Valon itself, they were a major problem for Morgase in Caemlyn, Thom said at one point Niall is more powerful than the Queen of Andor, etc, Yet later on they turned out to be largely irrelevant and were crushed by the Seanchan with ease. Galad now has a good sized army, but most of it are new recruits and the trained veteran Whitecloacks don't seem to be all that good as fighters, and I dont see them playing big role in the last volume.

[Erunion]

Spoilers!!!Eleventyone!!

 

Oh Noes! It iz de Spoilerz! (He's only at LOC!)

 

I've always found Pedron Niall to be a fascinating character, same with Geofram Bornhold. Those darn whitecloaks though, they really need to not recruit bullies and torturers.

+ They need to stop worrying about the One Power. Seriously dudes! You really have no idea what you're dealing with! Blasted misinformation...

[Gathering Storman Norman]

I agree. The Children of Boredom are the worst part of the WoT. I just skip their chapters during a re-read and haven't referred it yet.

If there isn't a main character in the seen I can't see the point of reading anything involving the Whitesheets. There entire story line could be removed and the serious would suffer no major impacts.

 

Speaking of Whitesheets, the remind me of the KKK. Anyone else feel that way?

[Feral]

The White Cloaks bother me because I don't get how you can have so many bastards (many who are deluded enough to think they're serving the Light) in one place. And as for the ones who aren't gits, how can there me so many ignorant/blind/misinformed people in one place? OK, I could understand it if they were really sheltered and never exposed to any contradictory ideas so they could be brain washed. But White Cloaks come from all over and they go all over the place, yet apparently nothing challenges their White Cloak ideals. Oh, and then there are those who don't actually believe any of the White Cloak crap (Aes Sedai being darkfriends and all that) yet they still go along with it all.

 

Gah, they're just frustrating on so many levels.

[capuga]

The White Cloaks bother me because I don't get how you can have so many bastards (many who are deluded enough to think they're serving the Light) in one place. And as for the ones who aren't gits, how can there me so many ignorant/blind/misinformed people in one place? OK, I could understand it if they were really sheltered and never exposed to any contradictory ideas so they could be brain washed. But White Cloaks come from all over and they go all over the place, yet apparently nothing challenges their White Cloak ideals. Oh, and then there are those who don't actually believe any of the White Cloak crap (Aes Sedai being darkfriends and all that) yet they still go along with it all.

 

Gah, they're just frustrating on so many levels.

 

See the KKK reference in the post just above yours. We're not exactly lacking in real world equavelants unfortunately.

[Feral]

The White Cloaks bother me because I don't get how you can have so many bastards (many who are deluded enough to think they're serving the Light) in one place. And as for the ones who aren't gits, how can there me so many ignorant/blind/misinformed people in one place? OK, I could understand it if they were really sheltered and never exposed to any contradictory ideas so they could be brain washed. But White Cloaks come from all over and they go all over the place, yet apparently nothing challenges their White Cloak ideals. Oh, and then there are those who don't actually believe any of the White Cloak crap (Aes Sedai being darkfriends and all that) yet they still go along with it all.

 

Gah, they're just frustrating on so many levels.

 

See the KKK reference in the post just above yours. We're not exactly lacking in real world equavelants unfortunately.

 

Well yeah but we don't get PoVs from them so for all we know they are all complete gits lol.

[Suttree]

I think that the Whitecloaks are both the least interesting and the least well drawn faction in Randland. Jordan is able to make almost any character or group of characters appear attractive when he adopts their own viewpoint, with two regular exceptions: Masema and the Whitecloaks. This suggests to me that he did not particularly understand the viewpoint of those who adopt an ascetic lifestyle.

 

Disagree, the quote below shows what he was going for and I feel like he did an excellent job hitting the mark. As you can see over the years their focus shifted from ascetic to military.

 

RJ's blog 2 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

For Children of the Light, the Whitecloaks were inspired by the Inquisition, the SS, the Teutonic Knights and others. In fact, they were inspired by all those groups who say, “We know the truth. It is the only truth. You will believe it, or we will kill you.”

 

RJ: The Whitecloaks? Well, they're meant to look as a religious sect. They began as, an ascetic organization dedicated to preaching against Darkfriends, trying to convince people by example that they should not become Darkfriends. And during the War of the Hundred Years they became a military organization. They are patterned on the Teutonic Knights, a touch of the German SS, and...

Q [interrupts]: And the Spanish Inquisition?

RJ: A touch of the Spanish Inquisition. (laughter) They are in short anyone who believes that they know the Truth - the Truth with a capital T. They know the Truth so well, and it's so clear to them that if you don't believe that truth, then it becomes obvious that you are evil.

[Pygmalion79]

I think that the Whitecloaks are both the least interesting and the least well drawn faction in Randland. Jordan is able to make almost any character or group of characters appear attractive when he adopts their own viewpoint, with two regular exceptions: Masema and the Whitecloaks. This suggests to me that he did not particularly understand the viewpoint of those who adopt an ascetic lifestyle.

 

Disagree, the quote below shows what he was going for and I feel like he did an excellent job hitting the mark. As you can see over the years their focus shifted from ascetic to military.

 

RJ's blog 2 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

For Children of the Light, the Whitecloaks were inspired by the Inquisition, the SS, the Teutonic Knights and others. In fact, they were inspired by all those groups who say, “We know the truth. It is the only truth. You will believe it, or we will kill you.”

 

RJ: The Whitecloaks? Well, they're meant to look as a religious sect. They began as, an ascetic organization dedicated to preaching against Darkfriends, trying to convince people by example that they should not become Darkfriends. And during the War of the Hundred Years they became a military organization. They are patterned on the Teutonic Knights, a touch of the German SS, and...

Q [interrupts]: And the Spanish Inquisition?

RJ: A touch of the Spanish Inquisition. (laughter) They are in short anyone who believes that they know the Truth - the Truth with a capital T. They know the Truth so well, and it's so clear to them that if you don't believe that truth, then it becomes obvious that you are evil.

How does this show that he did a good job with them? Because he had a plan?

[cgk84]

For the most part I quite liked the Whitecloaks. Some of their characters were certainly boring/1 dimensional but there were things I really liked about them. For example, in a world where religion was essentially proven true there were very few religious fanatics and most of the nations were quite secular so it was nice to have an organisation of foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics running around to add a bit of contrast.

 

I also liked that the Whictecloaks were essentially a transnational, independent military organisation, loyal to a philosophy/ideology instead of most of the wetlands soldiers who were loyal to monarch/nation/or coin. Sometimes the world needs dreamers.... :D

 

I also liked the irony of how, in theory, the Whitecloaks should have been a standard the world could rally around in the name of the Light but most of the world actually resented them or outright hated them because they were too heavy handed or just plain evil. I liked the irony of how their uncompromising view of the Shadow actually blinded them to it's influence on them because they were too fanatical to accept they could ever be wrong. And yet, in the Questioners, there was part of the organisation that even the Whitecloaks tried to reign in because they were even worse.

 

And Pedron Niall - legend. I loved his cool, calm nature despite leasing an organisation comprised mainly of hot-heads and outright maniacs. I really liked his scheming nature and how he had the patience to plan and manipulate as he was well aware that it would take more than just blind fate to get done what needed doing. And lets not forget they guy was one of the Five Great Captains. He rubbed metaphorical shoulders with the likes of Ituralde and Bryne. And it's impressive that he reached this status using what was essentially a giant cavalry formation, which would have greatly limited his options on the battlefield.

[Suttree]

I think that the Whitecloaks are both the least interesting and the least well drawn faction in Randland. Jordan is able to make almost any character or group of characters appear attractive when he adopts their own viewpoint, with two regular exceptions: Masema and the Whitecloaks. This suggests to me that he did not particularly understand the viewpoint of those who adopt an ascetic lifestyle.

 

Disagree, the quote below shows what he was going for and I feel like he did an excellent job hitting the mark. As you can see over the years their focus shifted from ascetic to military.

 

RJ's blog 2 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

For Children of the Light, the Whitecloaks were inspired by the Inquisition, the SS, the Teutonic Knights and others. In fact, they were inspired by all those groups who say, “We know the truth. It is the only truth. You will believe it, or we will kill you.”

 

RJ: The Whitecloaks? Well, they're meant to look as a religious sect. They began as, an ascetic organization dedicated to preaching against Darkfriends, trying to convince people by example that they should not become Darkfriends. And during the War of the Hundred Years they became a military organization. They are patterned on the Teutonic Knights, a touch of the German SS, and...

Q [interrupts]: And the Spanish Inquisition?

RJ: A touch of the Spanish Inquisition. (laughter) They are in short anyone who believes that they know the Truth - the Truth with a capital T. They know the Truth so well, and it's so clear to them that if you don't believe that truth, then it becomes obvious that you are evil.

How does this show that he did a good job with them? Because he had a plan?

 

For one it shows that he wasn't trying to make their viewpoint attractive in the least. Yes he had a plan and what is written in the books pretty much parallels the examples he gives exactly. RJ obviously had strong views against the perils of fanaticism.

[Pygmalion79]

For one it shows that he wasn't trying to make their viewpoint attractive in the least. Yes he had a plan and what is written in the books pretty much parallels the examples he gives exactly. RJ obviously had strong views against the perils of fanaticism.

You prove my point. He had a cookie cutter view in real life and reproduced it in the WOT. This is a failure of art. Jordan had no difficulty reproducing a people as despicable as the Seanchan because he was able to put himself within their view of the world and reproduce it; so too with the Forsaken; but he struggles to do this with the Whitecloaks, and it reflects, as I said, his failure to understand a certain kind of ascetic viewpoint.

[Beidomon]

Groups more annoying/boring than the Whitecloaks:

1. Seafolk

2. Seanchan

3. Shaido

4. Any woman-only gathering of 3 or more

 

And all of the above are featured prominently in Books 7-11!

 

Also, just my two cents, but WoT and video games are a poor substitute for human relationships.

[AmusableAlias]

Also, just my two cents, but WoT and video games are a poor substitute for human relationships.

 

lol I didn't get rid of all human relationships I just read a played video games instead of cheating and other nasty things...

[Suttree]

For one it shows that he wasn't trying to make their viewpoint attractive in the least. Yes he had a plan and what is written in the books pretty much parallels the examples he gives exactly. RJ obviously had strong views against the perils of fanaticism.

You prove my point. He had a cookie cutter view in real life and reproduced it in the WOT. This is a failure of art. Jordan had no difficulty reproducing a people as despicable as the Seanchan because he was able to put himself within their view of the world and reproduce it; so too with the Forsaken; but he struggles to do this with the Whitecloaks, and it reflects, as I said, his failure to understand a certain kind of ascetic viewpoint.

 

The problem is in perception I guess. What seems a cookie cutter view to you can be a realistic indictment on those groups he was speaking out against to others. If he was trying to make a statement against those types of groups mentioned then he succeeded in his portrayal of the Children. I don't see many redeeming qualities in the KKK or the SS or any group who thinks they know the "only Truth" and are willing to enforce that with violence. The Children started out as an ascetic institution trying to preach and convince people by example to not be darkfriends. We never see this side of the Children as they have been corrupted for a very long time into their present form. How can you say he failed at something he wasn't trying to do? The Children in their present guise in no way reflect any sort of normal ascetic sect.

 

Was wondering also if your viewpoint changed at all post ToM? Do you think BS did a better job portraying Children or have they changed enough under Galad that it is easier to make them seem "attractive" at this point in the story?