Hawkwing- The Ultimate Hero?

[W_A]

While I was reading the BWB, specifically the history section, it really struck me how much Hawkwing resembled a mix of all three of the main ta'veren right now. He was a gambler and a great general like Mat, a man of the people who resisted too much honor (Building statues to him), and a strong sense of right and wrong, willing to raise or punish regardless of rank, like Rand. He also has many of the classic traits of a hero. He's an orphan, royal descent, comes from a small nation (Although admittedly not from a farm like many current characters). So it seems to me that the greatest Hero of the Horn isn't actually Rand, but Hawkwing.

 

I personally think that their have been three times in the Third Age where there has been a good chance of the DO winning. A thousand years in, the Trolloc Wars come, and nobody's there to stop them. All the nations come together, with minimal leadership, and it takes them 300 years (Something like that) to push them back. Current time, Randland is divided between the Seanchan and Rand, with Caemlyn aflame, Trollocs running through the country wherever they want through the ways and Shayol Ghul just generally breaking loose. Contrast this to the time of Artur Hawkwing. Their were two major threats then. One was the everpresent Blight, but the other was Amalasan. Think what would have happened if a False Dragon actually managed to unite Randland and marched to Shayol Ghul. I don't know about you guys, but I can't imagine good things coming from it. Hawkwing singlehandedly beat down both these threats, without losing a battle. Think about that. In the Trolloc Wars, they were beseiging the Stone. They had literally gone as far out of the Blight as they could. Current times, Rand has been knocked down so far it's painful. They seriously came [ ] that close to winning by getting him to blow up the world. Hawkwing, on the other hand, united everyone, and in a series of seven victories, destroyed the threat of the Blight for I think 50 years. He made the entire continent peaceful, while Rand has dragonsworn pillaging and looting throughout the countryside. It seems like everything the whole gang has done in the present, Hawkwing did better, earlier and by himself. So my theory is that Hawkwing is actually the greatest Hero of the Horn.

[Sleeper]

In my opinion, it's still LTT. Hawkwing was a serious badass, but his corruption by Ishamael led to some major issues down the road, and LTT is essentially the Chuck Norris of WoT.

[Aliriel]

Hawkwing united the continant through conquest, just like Rand tried doing, only this is, Artur had 4 things in his favour, 1) The Shadow wasn't trying to kill him all the time, 2) He wasn't a channler so there was little to no pregidous(sp), 3) He wasn't going insane and finially 4) No invading army from the other side of the world who were better at war than majority of the Nation's he ruled.

 

To me, Hawkwing is the image of the Beneficial Tyrant. He ruled with an iron fist for the betterment of all. He gave favour where it was due and punished all who rose up against him in any way.

 

A.

[Sharaman]

Hawkwing leads the HotH in LTT's absence.

Unclear what the pecking order is, when LTT's soul is in TAR.

[Thor]

Given that LTT/Rand can remember his past life, why can't he remember his time in TAR?

[FarShainMael]

Perhaps because while he was in T'A'R he was not alive..

[Thor]

Or maybe he is not tied to the horn at all.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have to say, I agree with most posters, LTT/Rand soul is top dog, but Hawkwing soul is definitely up there, comming second most possibly.

 

Also, just to open it up, while Hawkwings rule was no doubt amazing, he didnt do everything right.

 

As pointed out, he was corrupted by Ishmael, he went to war against the Aes Sedai (certainly not good for the Light).

He wasnt actually up against the Shadow. he was fighting human enemies, not the DO and his minions. Up against the Forsaken and hordes of Trollocs, i think he would have found it much harder.

 

He messed up by sending his people to Seanchan and Shara. One force was a product of Ishmael's corruption (Luthair) to 'seal the two dooms" or somesuch. The seanchan were by no means a success to the Light. The other disappeared completely (so really, who knows)

 

Besides that, I dont think he won ALL his battles.

 

In any case, while he was a good Tyrant ruling over human affairs, concerning the DO and the SHadow, he may not have done so well. Against the Shadow, channeling and the politics of Channelers are of high importance. Hawkwing is like Mat. He would be adept at the military side of it, but against the Metaphysical and phycological threats Moridin and the DO represent, he is unfit.

 

Rand, and to a greater extent, LTT, is better. He is an able ruler (LTT anyway), he is a channeler (which is an imperative) and he can fight the DO's mental/ non military threat.

 

 

Ohhh, I just realised now that my whole post was really quite unnecessary.

 

LTT is much greater.

 

"The Land is one with the Dragon"

 

Rand can make stuff die or grow as his mood dictates. I mean, you cant get much more powerful.

[Thor]

Well that goes without saying obviously -_-, we've already seen how Ishamael completely destroyed Hawkwing. It wasn't even a contest. Ishamael could have killed Hawkwing easily but caused even greater chaos with what he did.

[yoniy0]

This comparison is funny. Hawkwing had his whole life to achieve what he did. Rand's been active for 2 years now, that's all.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This comparison is funny. Hawkwing had his whole life to achieve what he did. Rand's been active for 2 years now, that's all.

 

Yeahh. There are soooooo many things to point out, i could go on for days.

 

Hawkwing was actually liked (by most). Rand is feared and even hated by most, he has to deal with the Taint.

 

His accomplishments are so diverse.

 

As I mentioned, Hawkwings victories were purely military based. His administration, while very good, was nothing particularly special.

 

Rand's accomplishments are variety.

 

He is - while no genius - a sound ruler (in Tear, Illian, Cairhien etc..).

 

He conquered/united half of the world.

 

He fought the Ever Victorious Army to a standstill. NO mean feat.

 

While these are not as great as Hawkwing, Rand also has his victories over the Shadow and the channeling side of things.

 

Cleanse Taint.

Multiple forsaken kills.

LTT memories

 

etc..

[MasterAblar]

This comparison is funny. Hawkwing had his whole life to achieve what he did. Rand's been active for 2 years now, that's all.

 

Yeahh. There are soooooo many things to point out, i could go on for days.

 

Hawkwing was actually liked (by most). Rand is feared and even hated by most, he has to deal with the Taint.

 

His accomplishments are so diverse.

 

As I mentioned, Hawkwings victories were purely military based. His administration, while very good, was nothing particularly special.

 

Rand's accomplishments are variety.

 

He is - while no genius - a sound ruler (in Tear, Illian, Cairhien etc..).

 

He conquered/united half of the world.

 

He fought the Ever Victorious Army to a standstill. NO mean feat.

 

While these are not as great as Hawkwing, Rand also has his victories over the Shadow and the channeling side of things.

 

Cleanse Taint.

Multiple forsaken kills.

LTT memories

 

etc..

 

And he has no less than three women who love him.:)

[mb]

Not sure about there being any "ultimate" Hero. All of them probably had some degree of "bad" in them when they lived.

 

Though there seems at least this "good" in common:: They all seem Light-sided.

[W_A]

Besides that, I dont think he won ALL his battles.

Word for word quote from the BWB: "In all that time he had not lost one battle." "In fact, Artur Paendrag consistently matched Amalasan, gaining at worst a stalemate." If I wrote that he won every battle, sorry, my mistake, but he indisputably never lost.

 

As I mentioned, Hawkwings victories were purely military based. His administration, while very good, was nothing particularly special.

Hawkwing's administration:

He never punished the country of the rebels (Small thing, but uncommon at the time)

Meritocracy thing

Had an advanced and educated judicial system, with schools to teach judges, jury, rotating judges, appeals system, "Most historians agree [it] was the most elaborate and finely regulated judicial system the world has ever seen."

"A maiden could ride alone... without fear of harm" (I don't feel like typing the whole quote)

Civil Guard ("well trained, well disciplined and held to a string code of conduct")

 

As for the comments about Ishamael, it seems to me that this happened simply because he was under compulsion. I don't know how being a HotH affects you, but I doubt that it makes you impervious to OP or TP. This also covers the Seanchan invasion, which was actually completely successful and could have been great if Ishamael hadn't messed with the prophecies. Even if it wouldn't have been successful, it can still be blamed on Ishamael, because both of the failed invasions happened when he had Ishamael as advisor.

 

And as far as the channeling thing, you can't really say that he's inferior because he can't channel. His whole point is that he manages to do all this without any external aid.

[Rasko]

Besides that, I dont think he won ALL his battles.

Word for word quote from the BWB: "In all that time he had not lost one battle." "In fact, Artur Paendrag consistently matched Amalasan, gaining at worst a stalemate." If I wrote that he won every battle, sorry, my mistake, but he indisputably never lost.

 

Didn't Hawkwing lose against the Aiel when he tried to invade the Waste? I don't have my books so i can't search for a quote...

 

EDIT: According to WOT encyclopadedia in tGH Ingtar said that the Aiel were the only ones to defeat Hawkwing.

[Ogrelin]

Don't forget att all the heroes most likely have lived other lives before in earlier ages and might have lived even more incrediable lives then.