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The north and east must be as one...


BLKNIGHT18
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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

 

the Black tower is southish, TV is somewhat centrally located, and in Avienda's viewings, the towers are not merged, yet the dragon won.

 

I think the North and East, are the Borderland Lords and the Aiel, a good use of Lan, to be joined by Aiel appearing by gateway to fight by his side.

 

The south and the west, is clearly seanchan and elayne in my opinion. Elayne doesn't have Egwene, may she and gawin die a fiery death at TG, bias against the Seanchan, Elayne might understand, and her politicing take charge.

 

In ToM, Elayne basically secured the southern nations (other than tear) into a single nation, so I think south and west is elayne and tuon.

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I'm pretty sure he's talking about the symbol itself, the yin yang, not the actual physical locations of the establishments.

 

That's actually a pretty interesting theory, and I wouldn't be surprised if RJ had that in mind, but I don't think it's the main meaning of that phrase.

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No, I believe Rand has the right of it. Currently the west and the south are under the Seanchan (with the exception of Arad Doman, Illian and Tear, and all three of those could fall with Rand pulling their troops), and with the Borderlanders capitulating to the Dragon, the north and the east are under Rand. He has to make an alliance with the Seanchan to win at the Last Battle, and Mat is the key to that alliance through his marriage to Tuon.

 

This theory is rather convoluted -- there is very little reason to see the Flame of Tar Valon as "west and south", especially since the Tower's physical location is in the northeast.

Edited by dholm
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Also, 'the two must be as one' may refer to Caemlyn and Cairhien, now united under a single monarch (Elayne).

 

Of course, there may be a double interpretation - geographical and metaphorical - just to ram the point home, that male/female, saidin/saidar, need to work together for victory at TG.

Edited by FarShainMael
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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

 

 

the idea of male and female aes sedai having to unite is an appealing one but your explanation doesn't make sense in its current form at least. the ancient symbol of aes sadai has just two parts male and female. The Aelfinn answer has four parts: north, east, south and west. you'd have to explain how north and east have to unite. what does that mean according to you? same for south and west.

Edited by herid
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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

 

 

the idea of male and female aes sedai having to unite is an appealing one but your explanation doesn't make sense in its current form at least. the ancient symbol of aes sadai has just two parts male and female. The Aelfinn answer has four parts: north, east, south and west. you'd have to explain how north and east have to unite. what does that mean according to you? same for south and west.

 

You can parse the statement as "The north" and "the east" must be as one, or as "The north and the east" must be as one. In that case, "the north and the east" would metaphorically represent the White Tower. Up until recently, it was very much not as one, but since the reunification (and casting out of the black ajah), it looks like it is "as one."

 

As for the Black Tower, it's clearly not "as one" at this point, with two rival factions at odds. Works there, too.

 

The idea is a little out there, but is very intriguing. Jordan always loved having his characters make false assumptions and mis-interpreting prophesies, and Rand has spent a lot of time thinking about his interpretation of that statement.

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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

 

 

the idea of male and female aes sedai having to unite is an appealing one but your explanation doesn't make sense in its current form at least. the ancient symbol of aes sadai has just two parts male and female. The Aelfinn answer has four parts: north, east, south and west. you'd have to explain how north and east have to unite. what does that mean according to you? same for south and west.

 

You can parse the statement as "The north" and "the east" must be as one, or as "The north and the east" must be as one. In that case, "the north and the east" would metaphorically represent the White Tower. Up until recently, it was very much not as one, but since the reunification (and casting out of the black ajah), it looks like it is "as one."

 

As for the Black Tower, it's clearly not "as one" at this point, with two rival factions at odds. Works there, too.

 

The idea is a little out there, but is very intriguing. Jordan always loved having his characters make false assumptions and mis-interpreting prophesies, and Rand has spent a lot of time thinking about his interpretation of that statement.

that's really stretching it IMO. yes, the white tower was divided but the parts were in Salidar (that's well in the south or south-west, definitely not in the east) and in Tar Valon which is is north-west. it's even worse with the Black Tower which was never in two competing places. I can't see how to make this work in any reasonable way. as I said, I really like the idea that male and female channelers have to unite. I actually find it very strange and disappointing that none of them have made any plans in that regard. Egwene has a long and complicated scheme about uniting female channelers which she put in motion in ToM but she seems to have no plans at all about working together with Asha'man. why not? she knows that the saidin is now clean.

Rand seems to have no plans in that direction either.

There is a small hint of possible cooperation between male and female aes sedai when Ehwene sees a full male-female Aes Sedai symbol in the TAR reflection of the White Tower but it doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

 

 

the idea of male and female aes sedai having to unite is an appealing one but your explanation doesn't make sense in its current form at least. the ancient symbol of aes sadai has just two parts male and female. The Aelfinn answer has four parts: north, east, south and west. you'd have to explain how north and east have to unite. what does that mean according to you? same for south and west.

 

You can parse the statement as "The north" and "the east" must be as one, or as "The north and the east" must be as one. In that case, "the north and the east" would metaphorically represent the White Tower. Up until recently, it was very much not as one, but since the reunification (and casting out of the black ajah), it looks like it is "as one."

 

As for the Black Tower, it's clearly not "as one" at this point, with two rival factions at odds. Works there, too.

 

The idea is a little out there, but is very intriguing. Jordan always loved having his characters make false assumptions and mis-interpreting prophesies, and Rand has spent a lot of time thinking about his interpretation of that statement.

that's really stretching it IMO. yes, the white tower was divided but the parts were in Salidar (that's well in the south or south-west, definitely not in the east) and in Tar Valon which is is north-west. it's even worse with the Black Tower which was never in two competing places.

 

I think the theory is that the geography is not the correct interpretation so the physical location of the WT and BT are irrelevant. He's referring to looking at the symbol itself as a kind of map with the white half being the north and east and the black half being the south and west (or vice versa). The white half representing the female channelers and the black half representing the male channelers.

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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

 

 

the idea of male and female aes sedai having to unite is an appealing one but your explanation doesn't make sense in its current form at least. the ancient symbol of aes sadai has just two parts male and female. The Aelfinn answer has four parts: north, east, south and west. you'd have to explain how north and east have to unite. what does that mean according to you? same for south and west.

 

You can parse the statement as "The north" and "the east" must be as one, or as "The north and the east" must be as one. In that case, "the north and the east" would metaphorically represent the White Tower. Up until recently, it was very much not as one, but since the reunification (and casting out of the black ajah), it looks like it is "as one."

 

As for the Black Tower, it's clearly not "as one" at this point, with two rival factions at odds. Works there, too.

 

The idea is a little out there, but is very intriguing. Jordan always loved having his characters make false assumptions and mis-interpreting prophesies, and Rand has spent a lot of time thinking about his interpretation of that statement.

that's really stretching it IMO. yes, the white tower was divided but the parts were in Salidar (that's well in the south or south-west, definitely not in the east) and in Tar Valon which is is north-west. it's even worse with the Black Tower which was never in two competing places. I can't see how to make this work in any reasonable way. as I said, I really like the idea that male and female channelers have to unite. I actually find it very strange and disappointing that none of them have made any plans in that regard. Egwene has a long and complicated scheme about uniting female channelers which she put in motion in ToM but she seems to have no plans at all about working together with Asha'man. why not? she knows that the saidin is now clean.

Rand seems to have no plans in that direction either.

There is a small hint of possible cooperation between male and female aes sedai when Ehwene sees a full male-female Aes Sedai symbol in the TAR reflection of the White Tower but it doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

 

Why aren't there any plans to cooperate? Because there is zero trust and a lot of hate and prejudice. Not to mention the ashaman fight for the dragon reborn and the aes sedai are rather against him at the moment.

 

Egwene might be better than the rest of the aes sedai, but she has no trust for the ashaman either. Getting a group that has been split for like half a year back together is one thing, getting a group of people who have been split for more than 3000 years and all but hate each other's guts back together is a whole other level. At the moment most aes sedai probably wouldn't mind all the ashaman being bonded and "under control".

 

Rand has other things to do. And, really, so does Egwene.

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As people have said above, RJ likes using red herrings, and having characters act on false assumptions, and here thinking north and east and south and west in terms of geographic locations is incorrect.

 

It goes with much of RJ's overall themes for the series that men and women have to work together in order to maximize potential. The White Tower is finally unified after the split, and with Egwene's dreamworld agreement with the Aiel Wise Ones and the Windfinders, as well as finding the Kin, the female channellers are more unified then they've been at any time since the Breaking.

 

And the fact that there is a Black Tower makes the male channellers far more unified then they've ever been since the Breaking as well. Sure, Taim has his evil faction, but however painful it will be to get him and his cronies out of the BT, there are a fairly unified evil group rather than the Black Ajah being secretly dispersed throughout the ajahs. It wouldn't be farfetched to see Logain, who Egwene let go from Salidar, work with her to forge together an agreement between the WT and the BT once Taim and his cronies are removed or simply go over to Moridin's forces outright

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An interesting interpretation. The white tower is on its way to re-unification and the Aes Sedai have Elaida's grand palace to consider. I doubt it, but males could move in to the future building "unifying the symbol" as it were and become one with the Aes Sedai. I wouldn't like this outcome, as it would be to synonymic with a two towers analagy

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As people have said above, RJ likes using red herrings, and having characters act on false assumptions, and here thinking north and east and south and west in terms of geographic locations is incorrect.

 

It goes with much of RJ's overall themes for the series that men and women have to work together in order to maximize potential. The White Tower is finally unified after the split, and with Egwene's dreamworld agreement with the Aiel Wise Ones and the Windfinders, as well as finding the Kin, the female channellers are more unified then they've been at any time since the Breaking.

 

And the fact that there is a Black Tower makes the male channellers far more unified then they've ever been since the Breaking as well. Sure, Taim has his evil faction, but however painful it will be to get him and his cronies out of the BT, there are a fairly unified evil group rather than the Black Ajah being secretly dispersed throughout the ajahs. It wouldn't be farfetched to see Logain, who Egwene let go from Salidar, work with her to forge together an agreement between the WT and the BT once Taim and his cronies are removed or simply go over to Moridin's forces outright

 

I can see them working together for the Last Battle, especially if Rand pushing them to it. However Logain has no love for aes sedai either. In Tear he doesn't like the fact that there are so many aes sedai around and so few ashaman. And the common feeling among ashaman, even Androl, is that aes sedai are not to be trusted. Egwene has no desire for ashaman and aes sedai to unite either.

 

If the black and white towers end up uniting in any way, it's going to take some time. They aren't all going to just forget everything all of a sudden. People haven't even accepted that the taint is gone yet. And Silviana said that men aren't to be trusted anyway. The reds are still at the point where they want to bond all the ashaman.

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I don't know if everybody already figured this out, but I just realized it today rereading KoD.

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one." That's referring to the symbol of the aes sedai. The north and the east is the male side, what's known as the dragon's fang, and the west and the south is symbol of the female side, the flame of Tar Valon. So the Black Tower has to be there, a unification of male channellers,the White Tower has to be whole, and the two towers must be joined as one.

A post in version 7 of this forum had a similar interpretation. Do not remember the exact thread.

To me, the geographic interpretation can be right. The books have not yet contradicted that interpretation.

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An interesting interpretation. The white tower is on its way to re-unification and the Aes Sedai have Elaida's grand palace to consider. I doubt it, but males could move in to the future building "unifying the symbol" as it were and become one with the Aes Sedai. I wouldn't like this outcome, as it would be to synonymic with a two towers analagy

Once again, according to Aviendha's vision, the Asha'man do not move into that palace. They remain at the Black Tower. The two Towers may reconcile and work together, but they remain separate.
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This is the first I've heard of this idea, and it is intriguing. More likely than not, in my opinion, RJ had that notion in his mind from the beginning. Now, whether this interpretation was to be the sole meaning of that 'prophecy' or a complement to the geo-political interpretation, I don't know. The latter rings truer to me, though, for no particular reason other than it seems to resonance better with the theme of cooperation.

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An interesting interpretation. The white tower is on its way to re-unification and the Aes Sedai have Elaida's grand palace to consider. I doubt it, but males could move in to the future building "unifying the symbol" as it were and become one with the Aes Sedai. I wouldn't like this outcome, as it would be to synonymic with a two towers analagy

Once again, according to Aviendha's vision, the Asha'man do not move into that palace. They remain at the Black Tower. The two Towers may reconcile and work together, but they remain separate.

 

And, once again, Aviendha's vision is of a single, possible future. There are other possibilities. Nothing, not a single piece, of Aviendha's vision is set in stone.

 

The Aiel may suffer the fate she sees. Or they may not. The Dragon may be forced to bow to the Seanchan Empress, or he may not. Caemlyn may still stand, or it may not. And the Black Tower may remain separate from the White Tower, or it may not.

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Well, if the future Aviendha sees is inevitable, there really isn't much point in the remaining book, is there?

Of course there is. This is the story of the fight against the Dark One. In that story there are no guarantees since all bets are void when and if the DO wins. What humanity does with the world if they win is a different story altogether, and while I don't like the a'dam, I would still call it a happy ending if Rand saves the world and the Seanchan subsequently conquer it.

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