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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Possible TGS error?


KefkaPalazzo
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When Egwene confronts Sheriam as a member of the BA, she tricks her into a lie. She does this by asking Sheriam a lot of questions that she would answer "no" with or without the Oath, and then one that she would stumble over because "yes" would be the right answer. (IE "Are you Black Ajah? Have you sworn yourself to the Dark One? Are you plotting to bring down the Tower?" and then "Is your hair red?")

 

The error here isn't so much the scene, but who she attributed the trick to. She attributes it to Verin. Verin gave Egwene Sheriam's name, but didn't teach her that little trick. I say that because we know who taught her to do that, albeit unintentionally: Beonin.

 

When Egwene meets her in KOD, Egwene berates her for everything, which Beonin answers, however badly. This continues until Egwene brings up her betrayal. Beonin is physically unable to respond due to the Oath ("I betrayed n--" and is struck dumb there). It was this that Egwene was trying to recreate on Sheriam. She learned that even while a sister doesn't consciously know what she is saying, she subconsciously knows and holds to the Oath, if it's there. She got this from Beonin, not Verin. Verin never was the type to pull a stunt like that anyway, IMO.

 

Does anyone have an explanation for this, like a scene I skimmed over where Verin really did say "really, you should try that"?

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Verin proved to Egwene that she was free of the oaths by telling a lie - 'That dress you are wearing is green.'

Not quite what I'm talking about. I found the scene in TGS. Still looking for my copy of KoD.

 

Egwene stepped forward. "Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam?"

"What? Of course not!"

"Do you consort with the Forsaken?"

"No!" Sheriam said, glancing to the sides.

"Do you serve the Dark One?"

"No!"

"Have you been released from your oaths?"

"No!"

"Do you have red hair?"

"Of course not, I never--" She froze.

And thank you for that trick as well, Verin, Egwene thought with a mental sigh.

 

EDIT: AHA! Found my copy of KoD!

"You explain yourself at great length," she [Egwene] said dryly. "Are you trying to convince yourself? It won't do, Beonin. It won't do. If the rebellion is finished, where is the flood of sisters coming to kneel before Elaida and accept her penance? Light, what else have you betrayed? Everything?" It seemed likely. she had visited Elaida's study a number of times in Tel'aran'rhiod, but the woman's correspondence box had always been empty. Now she knew why.

 

Sharp spots of color appeared in Beonin's cheeks. "I tell you, I have betrayed n--" She finished with a strangled grunt, and put a hand to her throat as if it refused to let the lie leave her tongue. That proved she was not Black Ajah; but it proved something more.

 

Beonin did this. Not Verin.

 

(BTW, the TGS quote was in the hardcover, while the KOD quote was in the paperback.

Edited by KefkaPalazzo
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The connection is that Egwene tricked Sheriam into telling a simple lie - that her hair was not red. This is comparable to the simple lie that Verin told. The scene with Beonin was very different because Beonin is actually bound by the Oaths. Neither Verin nor Sheriam were. What Egwene did with Beonin was to convince her that her oath of fealty still held - and first she had to convince Beonin that she was still the Amyrlin. So no, Egwene wasn't trying to recreate that with Sheriam at all, because she knew that Sheriam was Black Ajah.

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The connection is that Egwene tricked Sheriam into telling a simple lie - that her hair was not red. This is comparable to the simple lie that Verin told. The scene with Beonin was very different because Beonin is actually bound by the Oaths. Neither Verin nor Sheriam were. What Egwene did with Beonin was to convince her that her oath of fealty still held - and first she had to convince Beonin that she was still the Amyrlin. So no, Egwene wasn't trying to recreate that with Sheriam at all, because she knew that Sheriam was Black Ajah.

 

I was at first quite angry that Verin was BA, but after TFoH when she used compulsion that would "kill her, likely within a year." it was clear, and there was forshadowing about "A discipline of more than 70 years torn apart by a boy." in the same book though I don't know where, there were indications.

 

Also, before Egwene did that with sheriam, she knew that the nature of the oaths would prevent any knowingly false statement based on her interigation of whats her face when egwene met the BA hunters.

 

[edit: inclusion]

 

Yeah, it was a linguistic trick, not because Egwene needed to prove it to herself, but she needed to show it publicly to the hall that Sheriam was BA. (I think it's a lame trick btw.)

Edited by Mandro
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To be fair, Verin said the weave itself wouldn't harm her, but that she might die as a result of it - because Verin compelled her to swear fealty to Rand until the Last Battle, which is of course a dangerous situation. Also, being near Rand can be dangerous.

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Yes, the weave was a weak form of compulsion, it won't cause any real harm, it isn't one of Graendal's mind destroying weaves, but it might just get them killed anyway because being near rand and fighting in the last battle is not a safe task, though it is one that they would likely have ended up with regardless of the weave, so Verin didn't really harm their health or their prospects.

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Egwene stepped forward. "Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam?"

"What? Of course not!"

"Do you consort with the Forsaken?"

"No!" Sheriam said, glancing to the sides.

"Do you serve the Dark One?"

"No!"

"Have you been released from your oaths?"

"No!"

"Do you have red hair?"

"Of course not, I never--" She froze.

And thank you for that trick as well, Verin, Egwene thought with a mental sigh.

 

I hardly consider this to be conclusive of her being BA.

 

We know that an AS bound by the oaths cannot say anything she knows to be a lie. It can be argued when Sheriam blurted out her false answer, she had not yet processed the question, therefore was not knowingly speaking a lie.

Edited by Xader
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Egwene stepped forward. "Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam?"

"What? Of course not!"

"Do you consort with the Forsaken?"

"No!" Sheriam said, glancing to the sides.

"Do you serve the Dark One?"

"No!"

"Have you been released from your oaths?"

"No!"

"Do you have red hair?"

"Of course not, I never--" She froze.

And thank you for that trick as well, Verin, Egwene thought with a mental sigh.

 

I hardly consider this to be conclusive of her being BA.

 

We know that an AS bound by the oaths cannot say anything she knows to be a lie. It can be argued when Sheriam blurted out her false answer, she had not yet processed the question, therefore was not knowingly speaking a lie.

 

 

Catching Sheriam in a lie was only part of it, making her believe she had slipped up was just as important, if not more so imo.

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The connection is that Egwene tricked Sheriam into telling a simple lie - that her hair was not red. This is comparable to the simple lie that Verin told. The scene with Beonin was very different because Beonin is actually bound by the Oaths. Neither Verin nor Sheriam were. What Egwene did with Beonin was to convince her that her oath of fealty still held - and first she had to convince Beonin that she was still the Amyrlin. So no, Egwene wasn't trying to recreate that with Sheriam at all, because she knew that Sheriam was Black Ajah.

 

I was at first quite angry that Verin was BA, but after TFoH when she used compulsion that would "kill her, likely within a year." it was clear, and there was forshadowing about "A discipline of more than 70 years torn apart by a boy." in the same book though I don't know where, there were indications.

 

I reread TGH recently, and there's a lot of moments between her and Ingtar that just scream DF.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Egwene stepped forward. "Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam?"

"What? Of course not!"

"Do you consort with the Forsaken?"

"No!" Sheriam said, glancing to the sides.

"Do you serve the Dark One?"

"No!"

"Have you been released from your oaths?"

"No!"

"Do you have red hair?"

"Of course not, I never--" She froze.

And thank you for that trick as well, Verin, Egwene thought with a mental sigh.

 

I hardly consider this to be conclusive of her being BA.

 

We know that an AS bound by the oaths cannot say anything she knows to be a lie. It can be argued when Sheriam blurted out her false answer, she had not yet processed the question, therefore was not knowingly speaking a lie.

 

Beonin proved that you are held to the oath subconsciously. She tried to blurt out a false answer without thinking, too, and was struck dumb.

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Yes, but still, she was answering the question without listening to it, it was by making her believe she had been caught in a lie Egwene succeeded. Truthfully any Aes Sedai could be fooled into a lie if you got them used to saying yes or no like what she did, but she made her believe she had been caught, that was enough.

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It seems to me that people bound to the Oath would always answer honestly regardless of being aware of the question or not.

It seems doubtful to me for such people to be tricked into lying through the method of one question at a time.

Edited by mb
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It's not lying if you don't respond to the last question asked. You ask me two questions, I answer the first. If I meant for you to believe that my answer refers to the second, then what I did constitutes lying. But if I didn't have time to register that you asked me a second question? Doubtful.

 

And Beonin was able to say she didn't betray anyone when she just met Egwene. It was only once Egwene convinced her that she still was Amyrlin that Beonin had difficulty repeating the statement.

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Egwene was doing one question at a time, not two or more at a time.

I have to say, I think this is simply wrong. To me it reads as if her questions were delivered in a torrent, not leaving Shariam with time to think or even take full note of what exactly it was that she was asked. I can't prove any of this, of course. But how would you write such an exchange (including Sheriam's denials) in any other way but how it was written?

"Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam? Do you consort with the Forsaken? Do you serve the Dark One? Have you been released from your oaths? Do you have red hair?"

"What? Of course not! No! No! No! Of course not, I never—"

doesn't quite cut it, wouldn't you say?

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Yea, I agree with Yoniy0 on this one, it seemed to me to be rapidfire, with Egwene barely giving her the time to answer before going on to the next question.

 

Still, Ironically she did NOT know that she was lying about that question, because if she had known what it was that she was being asked she would have answered "of course I do". So Egwene didn't really catch her in a lie, she convinced her that she had been caught in a lie, and that was enough.

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What Egwene showed was that Sheriam was answering ALL of the questions with a denial without putting any thought into them.

 

In any case, I'm reminded of Bugs Bunny vs....can't remember. Probably Daffy Duck.

 

'Yes you are.'

'No I'm not.'

'Yes you are.'

'No I'm not.'

'Yes you are.'

'No I'm not.'

'Yes you are.'

'No I'm not.'

'Yes you are.'

'No I'm not.'

'No you aren't.'

'Yes I am!'

 

Or something like that.

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Egwene was doing one question at a time, not two or more at a time.
I have to say, I think this is simply wrong. To me it reads as if her questions were delivered in a torrent, not leaving Shariam with time to think or even take full note of what exactly it was that she was asked. I can't prove any of this, of course. But how would you write such an exchange (including Sheriam's denials) in any other way but how it was written?
"Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam? Do you consort with the Forsaken? Do you serve the Dark One? Have you been released from your oaths? Do you have red hair?"

"What? Of course not! No! No! No! Of course not, I never—"

doesn't quite cut it, wouldn't you say?

Sheriam's movement near the middle seems to indicate that it was one question at a time.

A number of readers might understand rapid succession.

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Later, when Egwene was rooted out all the Darkfriends of the Rebels and the Darkfriend-AS fled, she thinks to herself [don't have the actual quote right now] something along the lines of :

 

"Verin hat only missed 3 Aes Sedai who were Black" - so she was quite good at finding those it seems.

 

Wether or not it can be said that Sheriam was caught in a lie, it's faily reasonably to assume Verin had this 'trick' figured out, used it to find most the of Darkfriend-AS and written it down in her book for Egwene to find and use.

 

At least that's what I think^^

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