First Time Reading the First Book

[Dakota]

Another thing I noticed in Sunny's writings, were how he glossed over the part early in Eye of the World, where the main characters first meet Thom and he mentioned a few stories he knows. Sunny glossed this over, as it's not immediately apparent, but some of the stories that Thom mentions are there to show that the world in the series is the same as our world, just many thousands of years in the future where many people and events of our time have become legend in theirs.

 

Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. (While John Glenn wasn't on the Eagle when it landed on the moon, he was the first American to orbit the earth.)

Lenn's daughter Salya who walked among the stars. (While Sally Ride wasn't John Glenn's daughter, she was the first American woman in space.)

Mosk and Merik, giants who fought with lances of fire that could reach around the world. (Moscow and America, superpowers with ICBMs that could reach all around the world.)

Mosk's wars with Elsbet, the Queen of All. (Moscow and England had tensions as well when Elisabeth was Queen of an empire that spanned all across the world.)

Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wonderous Ind. (Mother Theresa, who opened all those hospitals in India.)

 

 

Later on in the series, you'll also see certain characters and events that are supposed to be the inspiration behind many of our legends as well, characters who are supposed to be the inspiration behind gods and heroes from many of Earth's legends. I won't give away any at this point, but they should start to become fairly obvious when you get further in.

 

All in all, it's supposed to represent the cyclical nature of the Wheel of Time, about how their world inspired our legends, and how our world inspired their legends. So while there's not a whole lot of detail given about these stories, they're mentioned to help establish the Grand Cycle that forms the basis of so much of the series.

[MOOCHIE]

Sunny it might be fun if you did a braid tug count.

[Always Sunny]

@MOOCHIE What is a "braid tug count?"

 

 

 

csarmi wrote:

 

Women believe men just can't take care of themselves. They need their 'guidance' :P

 

agitel wrote:

 

As for politics... Women have a very strong role in politics in WoT. This is NOT a gender-NEUTRAL series, but it was intended to be a gender-equal one (many readers think women hold more power than men overall)

 

 

 

From the forum here (not from the book so much) I get the idea that women and men are equal in power but for different reasons. They have a different sort of power base, if you will.

 

But I can't really believe that. There is a male thatcher, blacksmith, moonshiner, farmer, miller, shepherd, and innkeeper. The only jobs held by women have been wife x3 and Wisdom. There is no way they have equal power. No way. Let's say the Mayor and the Village Council came to a decision that their wives opposed. What are the women going to do to stop the men? Withhold baked goods? Stop sexing them up? In the world you all describe to me the women of Two Rivers have no real power. They are advisers. They offer guidance. I can see how this is not gender-neutral but how is in any way equal?

 

I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about this setting. Certainly not as much as people who have read the entire series! No doubt I don't have the whole picture, especially outside of Two Rivers. But I'm just calling them as I see them.

 

Anyway, the next blog is up. I wasn't as happy with these chapters as I was with the earlier ones. Maybe I'm just in a bad mood. Ha, a case of the Mondays, right? The group has finally arrived in Baerlon and are slapping their credit cards down on the front desk of the Stag and Lion (I keep saying "Shaggin' Lion" in my head). What adventures are they going to get into in this town?!

 

 

From Taren Ferry to Baerlon

[Dakota]

For all the complaints about women's roles in the series, all I can say is, wait till you get to Ebou Dar.

[Aquarius]

For all the complaints about women's roles in the series, all I can say is, wait till you get to Ebou Dar.

Book 5 or so ?

 

Anyway, congratulations on your work, AlwaysSunny, it's a real treat to read. Both to remind us of our own predjudices when we first read the books and also to laugh at both your skill at guessing right and your mistakes.

[Dakota]

Another good write-up. I enjoy the fact that you pointed out how 'crazy-prepared' that Lan seems to be, and I did LOL at the "Can you kill a moose in the dark and skin it with your bare hands?" bit. When I was first reading, it ticked me off as well that this guy, who from all descriptions is good enough to put squadrons of special forces troops to shame, is fed up with a bunch of teenagers fresh off the farm because they can't keep up with him. Lan, these kids saw their villiage and family members attacked by monsters that a few days ago they had no idea even existed, and are yanked from their homes and lives after being told that Satan himself is hunting them. How bout you cut them a break.

 

 

 

As for the braid count, certain words and phrases the author seems to use excessively. Basically, he's asking you to, just for fun, keep track of just how many times that someone 'tugs on her braid' in frustration or disapproval.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't think it's so much that women, except aes sedai, are more powerful than men in this series. i think it's that female characters are not the usual parodies of life that they tend to be in much of fantasy. with some notable exceptions, women are generally madonnas to be worshipped from afar in a lot of fantasy, like in LotR. no actual personalities, or thoughts. just marble statues, and of little value to the story.

[Agitel]

Another good write-up. I enjoy the fact that you pointed out how 'crazy-prepared' that Lan seems to be, and I did LOL at the "Can you kill a moose in the dark and skin it with your bare hands?" bit. When I was first reading, it ticked me off as well that this guy, who from all descriptions is good enough to put squadrons of special forces troops to shame, is fed up with a bunch of teenagers fresh off the farm because they can't keep up with him. Lan, these kids saw their villiage and family members attacked by monsters that a few days ago they had no idea even existed, and are yanked from their homes and lives after being told that Satan himself is hunting them. How bout you cut them a break.

 

 

 

As for the braid count, certain words and phrases the author seems to use excessively. Basically, he's asking you to, just for fun, keep track of just how many times that someone 'tugs on her braid' in frustration or disapproval.

 

Yeah, RJ's somewhat fond of repetitive humor. You'll know what we mean by 'braid count' later, though I've seen it done before and it's not nearly as often as it seems. This makes no sense to you at this point, no doubt.

[dholm]

From the forum here (not from the book so much) I get the idea that women and men are equal in power but for different reasons. They have a different sort of power base, if you will.

 

But I can't really believe that. There is a male thatcher, blacksmith, moonshiner, farmer, miller, shepherd, and innkeeper. The only jobs held by women have been wife x3 and Wisdom. There is no way they have equal power. No way. Let's say the Mayor and the Village Council came to a decision that their wives opposed. What are the women going to do to stop the men? Withhold baked goods? Stop sexing them up? In the world you all describe to me the women of Two Rivers have no real power. They are advisers. They offer guidance. I can see how this is not gender-neutral but how is in any way equal?

They have plenty of power. The men of the village listen when the Women's Circle tells them to do something just as much as the women listen when the Village Council tell them something. It is more or less an ideal split of responsibility -- the men are raised to respect women, and they don't see them as inferior (except perhaps when it comes to danger).

 

What are they going to do? They are going to group up and tell them "no, don't do that." And the men would listen. They like getting food. Women control the households, whereas men control the fields. If push came to shove, yes, the men could force their way -- but they aren't built in that manner, and it would never happen. Violence is extremely rare in the Two Rivers, and domestic violence is unheard of, at least from our point of view. As you said, they have -- perhaps not "equal" power, given the male physical advantage, but the level of power is certainly balanced between the sexes. Most men from the Two Rivers would protect women at the cost of their own lives.

 

You will see women in practically every profession outside of the Two Rivers. About the only profession where women are rare is soldiering, which is because women are on average physically weaker than men. The Aiel have a warrior society for women, as do another group you will meet later, but that is more or less it. You do meet the occasional female warrior, but they are rare.

 

Then, of course, there are the Aes Sedai, who are all female in the modern age. Any Aes Sedai is a match for a dozen armed men.

[MasterAblar]

From the forum here (not from the book so much) I get the idea that women and men are equal in power but for different reasons. They have a different sort of power base, if you will.

 

But I can't really believe that. There is a male thatcher, blacksmith, moonshiner, farmer, miller, shepherd, and innkeeper. The only jobs held by women have been wife x3 and Wisdom. There is no way they have equal power. No way. Let's say the Mayor and the Village Council came to a decision that their wives opposed. What are the women going to do to stop the men? Withhold baked goods? Stop sexing them up? In the world you all describe to me the women of Two Rivers have no real power. They are advisers. They offer guidance. I can see how this is not gender-neutral but how is in any way equal?

They have plenty of power. The men of the village listen when the Women's Circle tells them to do something just as much as the women listen when the Village Council tell them something. It is more or less an ideal split of responsibility -- the men are raised to respect women, and they don't see them as inferior (except perhaps when it comes to danger).

 

What are they going to do? They are going to group up and tell them "no, don't do that." And the men would listen. They like getting food. Women control the households, whereas men control the fields. If push came to shove, yes, the men could force their way -- but they aren't built in that manner, and it would never happen. Violence is extremely rare in the Two Rivers, and domestic violence is unheard of, at least from our point of view. As you said, they have -- perhaps not "equal" power, given the male physical advantage, but the level of power is certainly balanced between the sexes. Most men from the Two Rivers would protect women at the cost of their own lives.

 

You will see women in practically every profession outside of the Two Rivers. About the only profession where women are rare is soldiering, which is because women are on average physically weaker than men. The Aiel have a warrior society for women, as do another group you will meet later, but that is more or less it. You do meet the occasional female warrior, but they are rare.

 

Then, of course, there are the Aes Sedai, who are all female in the modern age. Any Aes Sedai is a match for a dozen armed men.

 

Sounds about right in regards to the whole men and women thing. I'd add that at some point(I won't say when or in what context to not give anything away), Rand asks Mat if he has ever seen his father do something his mother did not want him to. Mat then realises that no he has not. So while men could force their way through brute strength, they don't, because as Dholm said, that's not the way they were brought up.

[Rcurran]

The wheel of time is not sexist at all towered women, like the way I'm not being sexist when I say women don't make great blacksmiths compared to men.

 

If anything the wot is sexist towards men where women are forever thinking they're more capable.

 

It's simply not sexist to point out facts, for example, women can't throw a ball very far or accurately compared to their male counterparts.

[MasterAblar]

Galloping in the dark: Is it safe? Probably not. But they don't really have the choice do they? They either risk it or wait for the trollocs to catch them.

 

Egwene falling behind: While the trollocs are after Rand, Mat, and Perrin, it would not be unreasonable to expect them to take out a lone girl on a road in their way, especially considering they are evil, bloodthirsty creatures. The risk is very present at least and seeing as Rand loves Egwene it's not really unreasonable that he would want to keep her safe. She's with them for better or for worse now, no turning back.

 

Watch Hill: I think you might be overestimating the TR(Two Rivers) ability to react to this raid. After all remember that these people barely even know what war is now. They probably don't know how to react to all this. And I wouldn't be suprised if the group is the first to arrive near Watch Hill from Eamonds Field.

 

Moirane's magic: Witnessing something like Rand did and learning that something happened like Egwene undoubtebly did aren't going to leave the same memory. Rand actually witnessed Moirane heal Tam, using an angreal no less, when Nynaeve had told him he was lost. That's got to leave an impression.

 

Bela: Yeah she's awesome ain't she.

 

The formation: I've actually no idea why so much attention was on the formation they were in. I guess that it being his first "adventure", he's noticing a lot of stuff. And I guess he cares about his friends so he's keeping track of them.

 

Manipulation: She very well may have. Mystery is Moirane's middle name.

 

Hillbillies: Quite right, the TR people are quite backwater so it's hard to tell what's true by what they say. That means pretty much everything you have heard from them(the Dark One, aes sedai, the Dragon) is uncertain.

 

The Haulers: Well, I guess you can never be too careful, and Lan is nothing if not cautious.

 

Sinking the ferry: Who says aes sedai are nobles :). Obviously sinking the ferry was not cool, and she had no right to do it. But it show that she's willing to do anything to keep the boys out of the shadow's hands. I wouldn't say she does not care, only that she believes it's a small crime to commit in the face of what might happen if the shadow wins. Also I'd point that while Moirane has obviously been very mysterious so far and it's hard to say who's side she's on(or how many sides there are), you should remember that she certainly healed many people in Eamonds Field with no obligation to do so. And she's quite tired already before she went to heal Tam.

 

Tracing the boys: How did they know indeed. I don't think that it was ever in doubt that the shadow would be able to follow them, even if Moirane does not know how exactly. Destroying the village for fun: no time, got to catch the boys, nothing else matters. For intel: no need they can trace them, after all they've got batman remember. They don't care about the village, only the boys.

 

Crazy al-Qaeda: lol, yeah she's rather determined isn't she.

 

Lan's campsite: Yeah, I got nothing.

 

Map: Just east of Almoth Plain(which is basically right next to the western ocean, between Tarabon in the south and Arad Doman in the north) you'll find Eamonds Field, and just north of that is Baerlon. That's the road they are taking.

 

Eamond's Field: True they don't seem to be wondering about how they are all doing back home. But remember that they left to protect everyone in the first place so they're assuming that the village is safe now. The village needs them and the best thing they can do for it at the moment is to leave and they know it.

 

Egwene: I think that Rand is just worried that she's forgetting all about the TR and want's to be aes sedai which from Rand's point of view is not a good thing. Rand certainly would like to stay in the TR.

 

Choice: Thing is Rand didn't really have a choice. It was Moirane or death.

 

The powers: Air and Water are strong in women, Fire and Earth in men. That's in general of course. A man could very well be quite strong in air, even stronger than most women.

 

Whitecloaks: You're pretty spot on.

 

Names: She only meant that Logain can name his followers People of the Dragon, it won't necessarly mean he's the real Dragon. The Dark One's name is certainly very real and something you don't want to say.

 

Heavy aes sedai: Well you've only seen one so far, so you never know.

 

 

I tried my best not to include any spoilers and answer only based on what you've read so far. I think your write-ups are really great. Hope you continue and will be suprised throughout the books. Keep it up!

[Pygmalion79]

The powers: Air and Water are strong in women, Fire and Earth in men. That's in general of course. A man could very well be quite strong in air, even stronger than most women.

And at least one female character you've met is extremely powerful in the "male" power of Earth. Not saying who, but...

[Isgrimner]

 

Lan's campsite: Yeah, I got nothing.

 

 

I'm pretty sure it was already mentioned that the ferry in Taren Ferry is really the only normal way in and out of the Two Rivers for the most part. So it is understandable that Lan knew they would be coming out of the Two Rivers that way, and might want to camp. Lan is a military type, and we had a pretty common saying, "Its better to have it and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it." I'm guessing Lan just had a similar mindset.

[Always Sunny]

Hey, folks! I want to thank you all once again for the comments. It really cheers up my mornings, reading all of this.

 

 

cindy wrote:

 

i think it's that female characters are not the usual parodies of life that they tend to be in much of fantasy

 

I don't know much about fantasy. In books, at least. My exposure has been through movies and video games. But so far in the novel we've got three main female characters, Moiraine & Egwene & Nyneave, who are pretty cool. But other than those three every other named female character has been a wife or a cook, mostly both. Maybe this changes later in the book but this doesn't bode well at this point, a third of the way through.

 

 

dholm wrote:

 

As you said, they have -- perhaps not "equal" power, given the male physical advantage, but the level of power is certainly balanced between the sexes

 

It isn't so much as the physical, brute strength power that I'm talking about. In fact, we can throw that entirely out of the equation for the moment. Think of power as agency. Think of it as the ability to do what you want to do without having to ask permission or to feel bad for doing it. A charismatic man in a wheelchair might have more power than a bodybuilder nobody likes. A person with a lot of money saved has more power, relative to her employer, as a person without a savings account.

 

In this setting, men have more power even if you don't include the fact that they're stronger. A baby boy in Emond's Field can grow up to be a thatcher or blacksmith or miller or farmer or innkeeper or moonshiner or shepherd. He has the power to go climbing alone in the Sand Hills to the west or walk half-way to Watch Hill. Adults will fret and worry that their boys are in danger but they'll be okay with it. Boys will be boys. But a baby girl is different. She's destined to be what? Other than thatcher's wife, farmer's wife, innkeeper's wife, or blacksmith's wife, what can a woman hope to be? A Wisdom? There's only one of those per generation (any more and they're shipped out).

 

Given the way everyone freaks out that the young women may be in even slight danger (look at how Rand treats Egwene) do you think that the parents will be so blase if three tween girls went running into the wolf-filled wilderness?

 

Finally, look at the hair braiding. Women are required to physically display their availability for marriage. It's a custom, sure, a tradition, but it is still there. Do men do anything to show themselves to be ready for marriage? No. Women do that. Women are required to be different while men are allowed to be "normal."

 

 

 

Rcurran wrote:

 

The wheel of time is not sexist at all towered women, like the way I'm not being sexist when I say women don't make great blacksmiths compared to men.

 

Actually, that is a sexist statement. You might not be sexist but what you said was. I have no doubt that if you took a random man and a random woman from the streets of the good ole US of A, put them in a smithy, and told them to make you a sword you'd get two god-awful swords. But if you took a little girl and a little boy, both who really wanted to be blacksmiths, and raised them in a community that values them both equally then I'm sure you'd eventually get two pretty good swords.

 

But in the real world (and in the Wheel of Time world, too, I'd imagine) that doesn't happen. Women are told from day one that they're pretty and they need to maintain their looks. That is what is valued for women, more than technical skill (can you name more female models than female engineers?). The women who decide that being a blacksmith is way cooler than being a housewife are few and far between because of the community in which they were raised. Fewer women wanting to be blacksmiths mean there is a smaller pool from which to draw examples. There are lots of male blacksmiths. So many, in fact, that the awful ones are ignored and the best are considered the norm. But female blacksmiths are so few than the crappy ones can't be ignored.

 

Now, replace blacksmith with any occupation. Movie directors? If a movie with a female director bombs then it must be because women just don't know what movie-goers want (if a male director bombs then it's just him that sucks). NASCAR driver? If Danica Patrick crashes then it's because women aren't good enough to be racecar drivers. But if any dude crashes? Well, he was having a bad day. Blacksmith? If a woman makes a bent horseshoe then that's because all women are too weak to be blacksmiths. Upper body strength and all that. If a guy screws up then he gets fired and a new guy gets hired.

 

 

Okay, enough of that!

 

 

So, in the book, I'm up to the point at which Nynaeve has re-entered the story. I'm happy about this! Thom and the Two Rivers Boys went to the Stag and Lion spa, bad dreams were had, and the city was explored. There was a kid with the ability to see the future (that's pretty neat) and Padan Fain is back. Poor guy.

 

Mat is still acting like a fool, pissing off the Whitecloaks like that. A foolhardy fool! Perrin continues to be a non-entity while Lan slowly slips down my Likability Scale.

 

Believe it or not, I'm looking forward to reading some more! Check out the link:

 

The Stag and Lion, Strangers and Friends, The Wisdom

[Shawnchan]

Damn. My ribs hurt from laughing. This is pure gold. Love it, love it, love it.

[dholm]

dholm wrote:

As you said, they have -- perhaps not "equal" power, given the male physical advantage, but the level of power is certainly balanced between the sexes

 

It isn't so much as the physical, brute strength power that I'm talking about. In fact, we can throw that entirely out of the equation for the moment. Think of power as agency. Think of it as the ability to do what you want to do without having to ask permission or to feel bad for doing it. A charismatic man in a wheelchair might have more power than a bodybuilder nobody likes. A person with a lot of money saved has more power, relative to her employer, as a person without a savings account.

 

In this setting, men have more power even if you don't include the fact that they're stronger. A baby boy in Emond's Field can grow up to be a thatcher or blacksmith or miller or farmer or innkeeper or moonshiner or shepherd. He has the power to go climbing alone in the Sand Hills to the west or walk half-way to Watch Hill. Adults will fret and worry that their boys are in danger but they'll be okay with it. Boys will be boys. But a baby girl is different. She's destined to be what? Other than thatcher's wife, farmer's wife, innkeeper's wife, or blacksmith's wife, what can a woman hope to be? A Wisdom? There's only one of those per generation (any more and they're shipped out).

 

Given the way everyone freaks out that the young women may be in even slight danger (look at how Rand treats Egwene) do you think that the parents will be so blase if three tween girls went running into the wolf-filled wilderness?

 

Finally, look at the hair braiding. Women are required to physically display their availability for marriage. It's a custom, sure, a tradition, but it is still there. Do men do anything to show themselves to be ready for marriage? No. Women do that. Women are required to be different while men are allowed to be "normal."

 

It is a tradition which shows they are considered adults, which is the real point -- an adult woman is ready for marriage, but that is because she is adult, not the other way around.

 

The men do not have a similar tradition, no -- the closest thing they have is how young men are discouraged from keeping a beard, but that doesn't really compare.

 

The men generally do not get to choose their trade, y'know. The eldest most often get their father's, while the rest usually become farmers -- out of necessity. (Perrin becomes the blacksmith's apprentice, but Master Luhhan does not have children of his own.) There is just not enough work to go around for people to start up their own businesses. The vast majority of the populace are farmfolk.

 

Aside from that, the work is split along what you might call traditional gender lines, which is not that surprising, really -- especially since the women do not protest. (In point of fact, they make it their pride to be the best at it that they can.) If a woman truly wanted a trade, she could likely get one (assuming she had the same chance Perrin did).

[randsc]

As I watch someone argue that women have a subservient position in the Wheel of Time books, I am torn between wonderment and amusement.

 

Women have a monopoly on the use of magic. Which is, ummm, a pretty big deal.

 

As you will find in later books, non-consensual sex is also a privilege of female characters, and played for laughs.

 

And no, it isn't sexist to construct an argument along the lines of:

 

1. Excellence in some professions requires great physical strength;

2. Men are more likely than women to possess great physical strength;

3. Therefore, men are more likely than women to excel in certain professions.

 

To say that men are universally better at such professions is sexist. To state that there is a greater chance that men will excel at such professions due to certain biological realities is not sexist.

 

As a 22 year veteran of a profession in which excellence (or even minimal competence) requires physical strength, a profession that has suffered great harm from the lowering of physical standards to accomodate women, I have little patience for the politically-correct, "anything you can do, she can do too" attitude.

[Always Sunny]

I sometimes wonder how this topic keeps going back to discussions on gender. Ha, I guess the fact that I keep addressing it may have something to do with it.

 

 

As I watch someone argue that women have a subservient position in the Wheel of Time books, I am torn between wonderment and amusement.

 

Women have a monopoly on the use of magic. Which is, ummm, a pretty big deal.

 

That may be true for the series as a whole. But I'm only three hundred pages into the book. So far there are three known magic users. Moiraine, Egwene, and Logain. That last one is a fella. So for me, at this point in the series, a third of the known wizards are men.

 

And again, having magical power doesn't automatically mean you're the most powerful. Look at Two Rivers. There are no wizard-queens ruling the place. There is no Aes Sedai Taliban marching through the streets keeping tabs on the mundanes. As far as I can tell, magic users are pretty rare in these parts. The head honchos are the Village Councils and the Governor in Baerlon.

 

With all due respect to Mao, political power does not grow from the barrel of a magic wand.

 

 

As you will find in later books, non-consensual sex is also a privilege of female characters, and played for laughs.

 

That is disgusting. I hate that kind of stuff in the movies that I watch (one of the many reasons that I don't watch very many sexy comedies any more). When and if I come to it then you'd better believe I'll condemn it. But, still, I'm not there, yet. It seems unfair to use knowledge from later in the series to counter my points. Just wait and see what I have to say when I get there.

 

 

To say that men are universally better at such professions is sexist. To state that there is a greater chance that men will excel at such professions due to certain biological realities is not sexist.

 

Here, I think, there may be a bit of a miscommunication. I mean, look at what Rcurran wrote:

 

The wheel of time is not sexist at all towered women, like the way I'm not being sexist when I say women don't make great blacksmiths compared to men.

 

I was responding to that statement. "Women don't make great blacksmiths compared to men." That sounds exactly like "Men are universally better at such professions." If you say the second one is sexist then why can't I say the first one is sexist?

 

Whew, and finally:

 

As a 22 year veteran of a profession in which excellence (or even minimal competence) requires physical strength, a profession that has suffered great harm from the lowering of physical standards to accomodate women, I have little patience for the politically-correct, "anything you can do, she can do too" attitude.

 

Now, I don't know what you do (But 22 years at a physically demanding job? Bravo!) and I really, really don't want to get too far away from Wheel of Time here in this thread. But do you think, maybe, just possibly, there is a slight chance that the physical requirements to do your job (or not even your job, just any random heavy lifting job) are skewered unnecessarily high? Even a little bit?

 

What I mean is (and here I said I didn't want to get off topic!) there was recently a court battle in the USA about fire fighters having to carry two hundred pounds of dead weight up and down ladders. Some felt that the requirement was set too high. After all, not every firefighter needed to carry people down a ladder. Some felt, and I have to agree, that this artificial requirement kept otherwise qualified people out of the job.

 

So maybe Emond's Field's blacksmith only needs to make, let us say, two hundred horse shoes a year. Or maybe a thousand nails. But to pass the test to get hired one needs to be able to do four hundred shoes and ten thousand nails. The requirement is set too high for physically weaker people (like women) to get the job even though they can do the actual work just as well. I dunno, am I being clear, here? I think I'm doing a poor job of presenting my side.

 

But this is neither here nor there! I'd be more than happy to talk about this somewhere else. But I kinda wanna keep this thread focused on The Eye of the World. What do you say, partner?

[randsc]

I am, in fact, a firefighter. And yes, every firefighter may at some point be called upon to carry someone down a ladder. Those "some" who feel that the CPAT requirements are set too high quite simply have no idea what they are talking about.

 

Firefighting is a team sport. Covering for the deficiencies of weaker team members endangers the entire team. "Hey Jim, you're already two bottles in, but Sally isn't strong enough to do what needs doing, so you're going for a third."

 

Lowered standards mean that firemen (term used advisedly) will die so that some women can have a job they're not suited for. Members of the public will die because the presence of a weaker team member limits the tactics that could otherwise have been employed to rescue them.

 

I have no problem with a female firefighter hired under the same standards as a male firefighter, and held to the same physical requirements. Such female firefighters, on my department, have so far numbered exactly two (And neither made it to retirement; they both ended up on permanent disability. Which is, if you think about it, pretty good proof that the standards weren't too high, and may not have been high enough. This is an extremely physically demanding job.). Every other female firefighter hired has been given preference points on the exam AND subjected only to a "re-normed" CPAT.

[Guest Bancini]

I think so far it is hard to disagree with you, Sunny, about gender, though you've only seen Two Rivers culture. RJ purposely started his series in an environment that fantasy fans would be used to before deviating from it too far.

[Agitel]

Bah, I feel like this whole gender thing is going to derail this whole thing. Sunny's observations are keen, and there's not much he's seen so far to really counter what he's seen.

 

I think what a lot of us readers fear that you may prejudge the series after the first book. Perhaps you'll finish it, put it down and not be interested in going further for the wrong reasons, and leave the series with judgments that we don't feel are supported when you've read deeper into the world (not just one book, but multiple books). With that said, Sunny, I find your observations on gender to be very interesting and I'd love to see how they evolve when you're reading from a woman's POV and learn more about the world. There's a bit of 'sexist' thinking both ways, you'll see that if you get further into it. Where there's a "that pretty, young slip of a girl?" you'll also find "that handsome hunk of a guy? really?".

 

Bah, I need to stop.

 

I think we, as readers of Sunny's blog, need to step away from the issue and let Sunny do his thing.

[randsc]

Bah, I feel like this whole gender thing is going to derail this whole thing. Sunny's observations are keen, and there's not much he's seen so far to really counter what he's seen.

 

I think what a lot of us readers fear that you may prejudge the series after the first book. Perhaps you'll finish it, put it down and not be interested in going further for the wrong reasons, and leave the series with judgments that we don't feel are supported when you've read deeper into the world (not just one book, but multiple books). With that said, Sunny, I find your observations on gender to be very interesting and I'd love to see how they evolve when you're reading from a woman's POV and learn more about the world. There's a bit of 'sexist' thinking both ways, you'll see that if you get further into it. Where there's a "that pretty, young slip of a girl?" you'll also find "that handsome hunk of a guy? really?".

 

Bah, I need to stop.

 

I think we, as readers of Sunny's blog, need to step away from the issue and let Sunny do his thing.

 

"The gender thing" is a recurring theme of the blog posts, so it really isn't reasonable to expect that a forum thread about the blog would avoid the topic. And the poster does keep coming back with arguments based on his/her particular beliefs about gender relations.

 

I mostly find the blog posts amusing, just because we know things he doesn't about how the series progresses. The notion that women are subservient in the WoT is ridiculous.

 

Plus, of course, I can just hear the blogger sitting in his dorm room, or a coffee shop, expounding on the futility and silliness of romantic notions like courage and honor, with a carefully-affected air of world-weary cynicism. Perhaps his lips will quirk with a jaded smile as he explains the truths, obvious to sophisticates like himself, to his less-enlightened audience...

 

This guy is going to hate these books, unless he is able to pretend that Jordan's world-view matches his own. Which would require that he be delusional.

 

I mean seriously, if you don't believe that some things are worth fighting for, that war is evil but not the worst of evils, that honor is real and courage is admirable...why would you read these books?

 

But perhaps I am being unfair. We shall see.

[randsc]

I don't know much about fantasy. In books, at least. My exposure has been through movies and video games. But so far in the novel we've got three main female characters, Moiraine & Egwene & Nyneave, who are pretty cool. But other than those three every other named female character has been a wife or a cook, mostly both. Maybe this changes later in the book but this doesn't bode well at this point, a third of the way through.

 

You also have Eldrene, a queen, magic-user of the first rank, and hero of song and story.

 

And the text makes it clear that the Women's Circle and the Wisdom exercise a tremendous amount of control over people's lives, up to and including forbidding people to marry whomever they choose, and censoring what stories can be told and which songs sung.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

sigh.