The Black Ajah Hunters and Alviarin

[Luckers]

Ok so I posted this on Twitter, and thought I'd bring it up here.

 

I've been thinking about the Black Ajah Hunters and Alviarin. I'm wondering if there wasn't supposed to be a plotline around tGS in which the Shadow realised there was a significant threat to the Black Ajah--maybe through the Prophecies of the Shadow--Shaidar Haren buys Alviarin's line pretty quickly, after all, almost as if he were expecting such a threat.

 

So, the Shadow forewarned, but focusses by mistake upon the BA Hunters, allowing Verin to calmly swoop in delivering mild mannered, slightly vague death upon the Black Ajah. It seems what the four books prior were leading to, when one takes into account Verin's actions--not that RJ wasn't given to playing red-herrings, but usually there is some sort of a payoff. This just... went away.

 

A plotline that was never supposed to go anywhere, or one lost to an incomplete outline? Thoughts?

[Lacanos]

They were trying to deal with the hunters, but the Verin moment took them by surprise and occurred very quickly.

The hunters moved to hunting Mesaana.

[Luckers]

Yes, I have read the books. I wasn't looking for an explanation of what occurred, but considering the posibility that something else was being developed, which was lost.

[Arkane101]

Well first of all, since it's meant to be as realistic to some degree, not every plan has to lead to something significant, I think one thing that had come from it was a few reasonably powerful Aes Sedai in the tower/hall as supporters for Egwene.

[Lacanos]

Apologies Luckers, didn't realise t'was you.

 

As for the BA hunters, I personally think their plotline was sufficiently dealt with. Can you explain really where you thought that plotline was going?

[Ananta]

Apologies Luckers, didn't realise t'was you.

 

As for the BA hunters, I personally think their plotline was sufficiently dealt with. Can you explain really where you thought that plotline was going?

 

I, personally, thought it would lead to massive PEWPEW and QQ when BA hunters openly confront Black Ajah in an epic battle. Leading to a lot of dead Aes Sedai and BA membrs.

[Mr Hindley]

I definitely thought this was one plotline that seemed to get dropped in an odd way. As I recall, pre-TGS, we were building up to an epic and imminent (as much as anything was ever 'imminent' back then) confrontation between the BA Hunters and a meeting of the Supreme Council. And Alviarin was also hunting the Hunters. None of those aspects ever got mentioned again - the next time we saw the Hunters, they were just pootling around in the basement doing their usual thing.

 

Maybe they gave up on crashing the Supreme Council meeting and decided to just TiVo it instead. I dunno - did feel a bit of a gap to me.

[herid]

I think there is no question that this plotline was dropped. Alviarin sets out to try to kidnap Doesine and Yukiri in KoD and then ...nothing. nothing at all for months. and the hunters themselves seem to have lost all their skills and didn't find a single Black after that. There are a few other plotlines which I think were dropped but this is the most obvious one.

[spoke]

This is not the only plotline dropped.

 

There was the Rolan/Faile escape that ended with an utter failure where Perrin killed Rolan before Rolan could sleep with Faile.

Or there was Mat's March to Illian, which ended with Mat going to Salidar.

Or there was Gawyn's Hate for Rand suddenly ending with it amounting to nothing.

Or there was Aarangar and Osangar - two forsaken resurrected, but being killed in utterly ignominious ways.

 

 

So what is your point about this plotline being dropped, there is nothing special about it. RJ loved Red Herrings.

[Luckers]

Well first of all, since it's meant to be as realistic to some degree, not every plan has to lead to something significant, I think one thing that had come from it was a few reasonably powerful Aes Sedai in the tower/hall as supporters for Egwene.

 

Mmm. There is a difference between a realistic depiction, and reality. There is always a vested interest in supplying entertainment, and certainly four books worth of build up is excessive to simply make a this-is-a-realistic-depiction play.

 

As for the BA hunters, I personally think their plotline was sufficiently dealt with. Can you explain really where you thought that plotline was going?

 

That's the point--we don't know where it was going, nor would Brandon. I merely asserting that I think this WAS going somewhere, but that Jordan didn't leave notes on it, and thus it got lost.

 

If you're asking for examples of where it might have gone... well, given its quite clear that Verin was always intended to be the one to end the Black Ajah as an internal threat, perhaps the intention was that the BAH would distract the Black Ajah allowing Verin to act on her threat. Alternately, rather than distracting from Verin, perhaps their role was to take down Alviarin (certainly that could be seen as having been developed with the way they were set up in opposition) and learning some dire plot from her--possibly the intended trap in TAR (Egwene realised that was coming surprisingly quickly). Though the last somewhat devalues what Verin achieved, so I consider it unlikely.

 

Or it could be something else entirely--perhaps the BAH were meant to be wiped out, a way for the Shadow to not seem completely useless before being slapped down by Verin and Egwene. I dunno.

 

 

I think there is no question that this plotline was dropped.

 

Dropped is the wrong word here--it implies Brandon intentionally left this plot out, and I doubt that. Lost would be more apt--whilst I do believe that it is part of Brandon's responsibility to write out the plots that Jordan left him in a way consistant with the earlier books, I can see how he did not connect this with a list of what Verin does (and what Egwene does in response) if Jordan hadn't left him notes pointing him to it.

[PhoenixUK]

I agree that the BAH plot did truncate rather abruptly. In the end it was Egwene and Verin who did the work. That's not to say they were worthless. First of all, it showed Egwene that there were significant numbers of Black Ajah in the Tower, and that different Ajahs could still work together in common cause. Secondly, they helped her realise how to unmaks the blacks (although then again, so did verin since she asked about the oath rod). Thirdly, the situation with poor Meidani emphasises how the Oaths must not be misused, how easy it is to think any means are justified by the ends, when it is not. Compare their use with how the shaido wise ones used their oath rod.

 

But yes, the plot went nowhere in the end. Gawyn gave up his hatred of rand v abruptly. i hope they still have a confrontation, but there just isn't time for it.

[herid]

 

 

 

I think there is no question that this plotline was dropped.

 

Dropped is the wrong word here--it implies Brandon intentionally left this plot out, and I doubt that. Lost would be more apt--whilst I do believe that it is part of Brandon's responsibility to write out the plots that Jordan left him in a way consistant with the earlier books, I can see how he did not connect this with a list of what Verin does (and what Egwene does in response) if Jordan hadn't left him notes pointing him to it.

I don't want to get hung up on semantics so I'll just drop this one.

There is another much bigger plotline which really makes me wonder if it was resolved as originally intended. it's the one concerning Rand's eyesight. It starts going bad after the capture of Semirhage. also, there is the earlier reference to the Fisher in tcheran wearing a bandage over his eyes. and then there is Egwene's dream of Rand wearing a bandage over his eyes. I must say that I assumed based on this that we'll see a more literal blindness involved than what it turns out. I don't mean that I mind how it's actually resolved - I think it pretty clever. but I can't help wondering if this is what was originally intended. Rand's eyesight damage after capture of Semirhage simply gets better and is never spoken of again. this is very strange. why was it introduced into the story in the first place? it serves no purpose. and having the Fisher piece in the game wear a bandage strongly implies literal blindness IMO. if the Fisher piece is based on a previous reincarnation of Rand then a metaphorical blindness of the kind that is applicable to the current Rand would never make it to a game piece.

[Luckers]

I found that curious as well, in truth, though I don't think its such a huge deal.

[Byzantine279]

A metaphorical blindness might if it was spoken of in prophecies and referred to by rand himself as "having been blind". The damage to his eyesight appears to have been caused by his link with Moridin (I believe the Saa and the TP cause damage to the users vision as well as their sanity).

 

This plotline either got dropped or lost, either way we can assume that nothing important was going to end up coming of it (RJ wouldn't have not written down a vital plotline).

[capuga]

A metaphorical blindness might if it was spoken of in prophecies and referred to by rand himself as "having been blind". The damage to his eyesight appears to have been caused by his link with Moridin (I believe the Saa and the TP cause damage to the users vision as well as their sanity).

 

This plotline either got dropped or lost, either way we can assume that nothing important was going to end up coming of it (RJ wouldn't have not written down a vital plotline).

 

Don't have a quote handy but I believe there is an Ishy/Moridin POV where he notes the Saa but mentions that they did not hamper his eye sight. We've had no reason to believe that Ishy was suffering any type of vision problems so no reason to believe that the Saa or TP usage are a problem. And Rand did not have any vision problems until Semi's fireball blow up in his face. His vision problems occur directly following this, making this the almost certain cause rather than his link with Moridin and an assumed vision problem that Moridin might have.

 

That said, I never thought this was a dropped plot point. Rand's vision slowly clears from the brightness trauma and his metaphorical blindness fits the prophecies just fine.

[Kal-El814]

But yes, the plot went nowhere in the end. Gawyn gave up his hatred of rand v abruptly. i hope they still have a confrontation, but there just isn't time for it.

 

I know this is pretty dreadfully OT here, but... I don't think there was any way for the Gawyn/Rand beef to end OTHER than abruptly. The majority of that conflict was based on a false premise. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was the fact that Gawyn didn't know Morgase was still alive. Whether or not he decided to drop the feud or learned that Morgase wasn't dead... any ending to that thread was bound to be either sudden or incredibly contrived.

 

Carry on...

[AvroChris]

But yes, the plot went nowhere in the end. Gawyn gave up his hatred of rand v abruptly. i hope they still have a confrontation, but there just isn't time for it.

 

I know this is pretty dreadfully OT here, but... I don't think there was any way for the Gawyn/Rand beef to end OTHER than abruptly. The majority of that conflict was based on a false premise. The only reason it lasted as long as it did was the fact that Gawyn didn't know Morgase was still alive. Whether or not he decided to drop the feud or learned that Morgase wasn't dead... any ending to that thread was bound to be either sudden or incredibly contrived.

 

Carry on...

 

I was rather hoping he would be meeting Rand, making some very veiled threats, angry comments, etc - trying to hold back from cutting Rand's head off for the sake of the world - when Morgase walks in to the tent, and he damn near swallows his tongue. I could all but see him taking a drink of wine, in comes mummy, and him choking on it, spraying it all over the room, and looking a complete numpty. That would have been hilarious. Instead he chooses to believe his loved ones rather than some random peddler, much less entertaining

Aaaanyway, back on topic, they did seem to drop off the map a bit...all we hear are vague murmurs, then the reunification occurs and it all seems to get quietly dropped. Anyone know what happened to the Oathbound sisters?

[Durinax]

I actually thought the whole BA plot line was going to end in a eruption of fighting inside the tower when rand visited, unfortunately verin has to waste that potential. althouhg it would have been very satisfying for rand to walk in and find mesaana with his ubervision, something I find odd since I doubt any forsaken would have missed a chance to look at teh enemy.

[Luckers]

I don't have ToM on me, was that session closed? Danelle had no place in a closed sitting of the Hall.

 

If not... yeah, strange. Maybe she was off elsewhere--Rand did arrive abruptly.

 

Though, that being said, I'm not convinced yet that Rand can see Darkfriends--rather I think they cannot look on him without pain, and that due to a warning by Verin he was paying attention to Anaiyella and Weiramon and thus noticed their reactions. It's possible Danelle was there, and concealed enough of her reaction not to be noticed.

[herid]

I don't have ToM on me, was that session closed? Danelle had no place in a closed sitting of the Hall.

 

If not... yeah, strange. Maybe she was off elsewhere--Rand did arrive abruptly.

 

Though, that being said, I'm not convinced yet that Rand can see Darkfriends--rather I think they cannot look on him without pain, and that due to a warning by Verin he was paying attention to Anaiyella and Weiramon and thus noticed their reactions. It's possible Danelle was there, and concealed enough of her reaction not to be noticed.

no, that session was open. Egwene comments on this specifically.

Silviana glanced at Egwene. Should this meeting be Sealed to the Hall?

No, Egwene thought. They need to see me confront him. Light, but I don't feel

ready for this.

-ToM, Ch 3

it does raise the question of where Mesaana was at the time. she might have been actually present. there were lots of people there and she was not a Sitter so Rand need not have looked her in the eyes. as for Rand seeing darkfriends I'm pretty sure he can. the dude can see souls as he proves with Lanfear at the end. if he can do that, seeing darkfriends should be a piece of cake for him.

[Luckers]

A dreamer entering a dream is their soul, which changes the whole ball game--even presuming that was not just a fancy way of him identifying her by characteristics he recognises in an old lover.

 

No, he's too hesitant in realising Weiramon and Anaiyella. Whatever is going on with this new ability of his, its not as clear-cut as him simply being able to see them flat.

[herid]

A dreamer entering a dream is their soul, which changes the whole ball game--even presuming that was not just a fancy way of him identifying her by characteristics he recognises in an old lover.

 

No, he's too hesitant in realising Weiramon and Anaiyella. Whatever is going on with this new ability of his, its not as clear-cut as him simply being able to see them flat.

I don't see why the fact that this happens in a dream matters. nobody else other than Rand shows any such ability even in dreams. we've seen a number of characters in disguise in dreams before and none were recognized by others. and It clearly says that he recognizes her soul

"I don't know you," Rand said. "I . . ."

Those eyes. Those beautiful, terrible eyes. Rand gasped, releasing her

hand. The face was different. But he did know that soul. "Mierin? You're

dead. I saw you die!"

Besides, we see Rand doing something very similar in waking world too. he nails Siuan right away when he sees her in the Tower when their eyes meet. Siuan looks very different now. So how does he know who she is? he did see her once in this form when he was spying on Egwene, the Aes Sedai and the Wise Ones in TAR. but he definitely did not recognize her then. that's quite obvious from the way his thoughts are described.

Lews Therin rumbled somewhere in the back of his head—he always did when Rand came close to Callandor—but tonight the gleaming crystal sword interested Rand not at all. He stared at where the huge map had hung. Not really a map, there at the end, but something more. What was this place? Was it simple chance that drew him here tonight instead of yesterday, or tomorrow? One of his ta’veren tugs on the Pattern? No matter. Egwene had accepted that summons meekly, and that she would never do if it came from the Tower and Elaida. This Salidar was where her mysterious friends were hiding. Where Elayne was. They had handed themselves to him.

-LoC, Ch 32

he decides that the Aes Sedai he saw were rebels because Egwene meekly accepted their summons, not because he recognized Siuan. That's never mentioned and that would certainly be a far bigger clue that these are the rebel Aes Sedai.

[plague fiend]

The hunting of the BA was something I was waiting for for soooo long. When they were in the basement and caught the Black Sister, I was like finally, but since then, I'm like whatever. Another thought, off the main subject, but when will any woman in this series learn "control is an illusion?"

EDIT: Just finished tGS, awesome book. I guessed/hoped several books ago, that Egwene would use the oath rod to purge the BA when she became Amyrlin, but I didn't see the Verin thing coming.

[PhoenixUK]

This thread led me to think about just how immensely important Verin has been in this story. Firstly in the black ajah story - by giving egwene that list, egwene was able to eliminate a large chunk of black sisters. Imagine if she hadn;t known that Moria and Sheriam were Black during her meeting with the Salidar Hall.

 

But also,she gave Egwene the Dream Ring ter'angreal. Without that, the Supergirls would probably never have gained access to tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene would have no kinship with the Wise Ones, she might never have caught Mesaana in the real world, Nynaeve would not have saved Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod during his fight with Rahvin, and Elayne and Nynaeve wouldn't have found the Bowl of the Winds so the world would have been cooked in its own juices from the Dark One locking the world in eternal summer heat!