To Un-make the Bore

[Nightstrike]

And I'm still holding to my idea that the "buffer" between Saidin/Saidar and the Dark One will be Padan Fain. They'll stuff Fain down the bore and use him to shield themselves from direct contact with the Dark One.

The problem I see with that is that Fain is a new concept & the Bore has been unmade before. They sealed the bore without any kind of Fain.

[Kestrel]

The problem I see with that is that Fain is a new concept & the Bore has been unmade before. They sealed the bore without any kind of Fain.

You are absolutely right. But we don't have any hints about how the bore was un-made the previous times the Third Age came 'round. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it had something to do with each previous incarnation of LTT and/or a woman in a self-sacrifice, and an eventual rebirth to do it all over again.

 

Got to wonder about why the forthcoming conflict is called "The Last Battle." Is it just the "Last Battle in this Age" or is it really the "LAST Last Battle"?

 

This time round we do have a new beginning of sorts in Fain, so the method of healing the bore and the final outcome may be quite different from any previous turning. Shoving Fain down the bore may neutralize the Dark One, the way Rand's two wounds neutralize each other. And since the World of the Wheel is built around opposites balancing each other, this would indeed become the LAST Last Battle since neutralizing the Dark One could cause the entire Wheel to shift direction permanently.

 

On the other side we have Moridin, who has grown weary of the perpetual reincarnations and is ready to be done with the whole cycle. Rand was of the same mindset until his Golden moment. But Moridin has not and will not have such an epiphany, so he is also truly trying to make this the LAST Last Battle.

[Nightstrike]

Got to wonder about why the forthcoming conflict is called "The Last Battle." Is it just the "Last Battle in this Age" or is it really the "LAST Last Battle"?

Every last battle is called the last battle. If the good guys win, then there will come other; if the evil side wins, then it will really be the very last "last battle".

 

This time round we do have a new beginning of sorts in Fain, so the method of healing the bore and the final outcome may be quite different from any previous turning.

If the Bore is unmade, then it's the same as in other turnings of the Wheel. It can always be drilled anew.

 

Shoving Fain down the bore may neutralize the Dark One, the way Rand's two wounds neutralize each other. And since the World of the Wheel is built around opposites balancing each other, this would indeed become the LAST Last Battle since neutralizing the Dark One could cause the entire Wheel to shift direction permanently.

The DO is outside the wheel, he's got no true physical form, and the taint (from the DO, through the tiny opening in the Bore - tiny relative to the Wheel, which the DO can destroy) destroyed all of Shadar Logoth. Fain's power is the only remaining thing from SH. Logically speaking, Fain is less than a mosquito in comparison.

[Nightstrike]

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

 

Week 10 Question: Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

 

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.

[Bluedust9]

Fully sealing the DO is as simple as the Pattern being re-woven over the hole in it (The Bore).

 

Of course the Pattern is thin in many, many places now, thanks to all the Chaos weakening it (and probably balefire, Graendal even mentions balefire causing more to the death of the Pattern than Chaos in POD, Demmy's probably doing this). So Order needs to be restored for it to start healing itself.

 

I say simple, but I know it isn't.

[Jon Paul]

I believe the Bore may be a weave of the Power and that once the original weave is removed, the Prison will naturally heal its self without the Bore-weave to prop it open.

[Kestrel]

I believe the Bore may be a weave of the Power and that once the original weave is removed, the Prison will naturally heal its self without the Bore-weave to prop it open.

Which is where I was going when I posed the question. The bore itself may be still open in part because the Dark One is bulging into it, and in part because it has what may be called "walls" which need to be removed.

 

So how do you break down those walls, if indeed walls are holding the threads of the pattern apart? Well, one of three ways:

-- Mierin/Cyndane/Lanfear could supply information on how the bore-walls were constructed.

-- Nynaeve could detect something broken or missing, the way she healed severing.

-- Aviendha could read the weave and unravel it the way she unraveled a gateway, which is something Moridin(?) thought was impossible.

[Ferdawoon]

There have been suggestions where the huge armies Rand gather are not ment to neccesarily fight. He need their lifethreads to put where the hole in the Pattern is.

 

It is said that he is the strongest Ta'veren ever (or at least that it is known. Not sure if that is a RJ / BS quote or someone in the books who mention it) so maybe he will use his Ta'veren nature, along with Perrin and Matt, to pull people's threads there and strengthen the Pattern. Kinda like channeling life and weaving people's lifethreads.

[WhiskyJack]

To quote LTT, work of Man could not match the work of the Creator.

[RushavMohanty]

Why would LTT balefiring himself prevent him from being reborn?

 

LTT didn't balefire himself. RJ was specifically asked that question at signings, and was quite insistent that LTT's death and Dragonmount's creation were not by balefire.

 

Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.

 

Since LTT was the Dragon he was able to pull in a fantastic amount of power, and we saw the result.

 

Getting on to your question, actually there has been some speculation (unproven, as far as I know) that a balefired person might eventually be reborn.

 

However, this passage from Lord of Chaos strongly suggests that a death by Balefire is an irreversable final death:

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME... DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

 

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

Something else. You guys are forgetting about RJ's background in physics which is very important in this context. He took into account time paradoxes. RJ "was quite insistent that LTT's death and Dragonmount's creation were not by balefire" because IMO it would create a time paradox. No one can turn balefire on themselves because if they were erased fromm the pattern then who was it that balefired the individual in the first place? It's just not possible according to RJ's logic in the series.

[WhiskyJack]

I just re-read the prologue of first book. LTT was killed by a single bolt of lightning...

[Champion]

Let us not forget that Lanfear had first-hand knowledge of the bore, as she was one of the original people to do the research on the bore in the AoL. She is probably the only surviving expert on the bore besides maybe LTT. Furthermore, she was part of the team who actually made the bore. LTT knows why the patch on the bore did not work. In addition, it was because the female AS united against him that his effort failed. Egwen is repeating this cycle in her current opposition to Rand's desire to break the seals at the FoM.

[je3donut]

Does the tuatha'an song come into play? Perhaps life and harmony are the TRUE barriers that keep the dark one sealed (which takes on a whole good v evil internal debate...) This would then tie into Rand's realisation on how you must not become a pure weapon yourself. Alternatively, it could also be the third power that is required to work Callandor effectively. This would tie into RJ's theme's on balance etc.

[Lisa Campbell]

I've said this ages ago on another thread but I don't think the bore will be resealed/rewoven. I think Rand and co. will have to create a new prison and I think Shadar Logoth will have something to do with it. After all Shadar Logoth translated means where the shadow waits. Waits until the next Age of Legendsto be freed again perhaps?

[Rcurran]

How could anyone have though LTT BFd himself? That makes no sense! It's explicit in the books.

 

And BF?! Of all the weaves?! BF making a mountain!! I must have misread the posts above.

[mackoY-kun]

I just re-read the prologue of first book. LTT was killed by a single bolt of lightning...

A bot off topic but; he did not "use" a bolt of lightning. He "drew" so much of the one power into him , but he did not channel or weave it he just drew it into him. This one power density in one place materialized into pure energy;

"The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens"

[Luckers]

How could anyone have though LTT BFd himself? That makes no sense! It's explicit in the books.

 

And BF?! Of all the weaves?! BF making a mountain!! I must have misread the posts above.

 

Obviously it wasn't balefire, given RJ said it wasn't, but that being said it wasn't all the odd of an idea. For instance it's not illogical that Balefire create a mountain--after all, the mountain wasn't made by what Lews Therin did, but by magma gushing up through the hole left in the earth after Lews Therin did what he did, and balefire could make a hole in the earth as easily as anything else--more easily.

 

From there the descriptions of balefire and the liquid fire that killed Lews Therin are very similar, and its not implausible that Lews Therin, in the extremity of his despair, sought to destroy himself as utterly as possibly. The only evidence from within the books that stood against it being balefire, prior to RJ stating that it wasn't, was that Lews Therin did not seem to weave, only to draw--but we've seen other occaisions like that, where in the height of emotion the channeler seems unaware of what they were doing.

 

So yeah, it wasn't balefire, but it wasn't stupid to think it might have been.

[Rcurran]

Great info thanks for that. I see now that it could have been possible but I'd always imagined it was more like a dam bursting rather than a specific weave. Also I thought it was similar to a grief motivated heroin overdose .. Ehhh punctuated with a dam bursting.

[FarShainMael]

Doing a re-read, and near the end of EotW, we see this:

 

"There is enough power in the Eye of the World to undo {the DO's} prison..

 

"..You can go to the eye of the World, three ta'veren, three counterpoints of the Web, placed where the danger lies. Let the Pattern be woven around you there, and you may save the world from the Shadow."

 

 

edited for bouncing keyboard

[clu7ch]

First of all, FarShainMael, that's an amazing bit I've missed, and I feel shamed - as I just finished EotW in my re-read. Although that part about letting the Pattern weaving around them may have happened, in the sense that they set threads into motion. It's a thought.

 

The thing you have to realize about the Dark One's prison is this. It's not actually a part of this world. Provided, the one power was used to drill the bore, I'm not entirely convinced at all that the one power can successfully be used to close it at all. I think sealing it is all we have at this point. Until I can fully grasp what the prison is, actually.

 

The 'plug' in the bore, it parallels how a channeler would shield another channeler from the one power. Lord of Chaos gives us an amazing in-depth look at being inside the bore I think. The way Rand destroys or unworks the knots in the barrier, preventing him from touching Saidin. After he takes care of a few of them, he can feel the source, and then, the others go quicker. Remember what happened when Rand finally got free? He struck out blindly, in desperation, and those around him were pretty messed up.

 

All through the books, we're being told that the dark one, free from his prison, would be physically impossible to stop. I have a feeling that if Rand broke the remaining knots in the dark one's shield, his release would be similar, but on a larger scale, to Rand's.

 

Therefor, I have to say that I don't think the bore will be unmade. It will either be sealed again, or he will be dealt with.

[FarShainMael]

In a way, the Bore reminds me of Travelling by saidin, which 'bores a hole' between one place and another (different to saidar-Travelling) (LoC27).

 

We also know that it is possible to unweave a gateway (TPoD2), though it may explode in your face!

 

Two clues, there?

[clu7ch]

I like those idea's, for sure!

It also reminded me of when Moridin traveled at one point. I can't remember but I'm pretty sure he used the True Power, and it said rather distinctly 'he stepped outside the pattern'

That always seemed to hang in my mind.

[Taelin]

The seals were made with Saidin, and were in turn corrupted by the DO's touch (as were the ways and anyone channeling Saidin).

Saiding and Saidar used together worked like reverse polarity to force the Taint from Saidin, showing that opposites do not attract.

In tEotW, the Creator speaks in Rand's mind: "IT IS NOT HERE;I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE..." or something along those lines, which told me that the Creator will not take part until the confrontation on Shayol Gul, and IT is the bore.

After Rand's baptism on Dragonmount, his mind is enveloped with a radiant light that holds the madness at bay, with Nynaeve's POV theorizing that the madness is a living construct or manifestation of the DO in some form or another. This indicates that there must be a power from the creator like the True Source, but it's "inverted" so no one can detect it. This "ULTIMATE SOURCE" is the opposite of the True Source, and is what Rand must use to seal the bore in such a way that the DO cannot weaken the patch (without help). Rand also hinted along these lines in ToM, wondering what he needed to use in conjunction with Saidin to seal the Bore.

[Taelin]

I've said this ages ago on another thread but I don't think the bore will be resealed/rewoven. I think Rand and co. will have to create a new prison and I think Shadar Logoth will have something to do with it. After all Shadar Logoth translated means where the shadow waits. Waits until the next Age of Legendsto be freed again perhaps?

 

I've often wondered about a comment made by Asmodean in tEotW, where he says Mat's Dagger showed them the way to the Green Man's garden "An old enemy, an old friend...". This shows a connection to Shadar Logoth and the Dark One that has never been truly discussed in the books. Somehow I think Padan Fain has to be present to reseal the Bore, and possibly becomes the DO himself after Rand "destroys" the DO. That's an old line of thought I had more than a decade ago, but I have nothing more to base it on than the power Fain has over shadowspawn, as well as his ability to use some form of compulsion on humans.

[Lisa Campbell]

I've said this ages ago on another thread but I don't think the bore will be resealed/rewoven. I think Rand and co. will have to create a new prison and I think Shadar Logoth will have something to do with it. After all Shadar Logoth translated means where the shadow waits. Waits until the next Age of Legendsto be freed again perhaps?

 

I've often wondered about a comment made by Asmodean in tEotW, where he says Mat's Dagger showed them the way to the Green Man's garden "An old enemy, an old friend...". This shows a connection to Shadar Logoth and the Dark One that has never been truly discussed in the books. Somehow I think Padan Fain has to be present to reseal the Bore, and possibly becomes the DO himself after Rand "destroys" the DO. That's an old line of thought I had more than a decade ago, but I have nothing more to base it on than the power Fain has over shadowspawn, as well as his ability to use some form of compulsion on humans.

 

Read my newly created thread on the general discussion page. You could add that Moridin takes Fain as a hound to help search out Rand in the appropriate point in time.