Elayne's Ter'angreal

[jwillis7]

I was listening to ToM and had the thought what if the reason Elayne cannot get Ter'angreal to work the exact correct way is because she is not linked with a man. I feel that most things made in the AoL would be done with both, and until she realizes this she will just get the kinda close copies she has been makin. just a thought

[capuga]

I was listening to ToM and had the thought what if the reason Elayne cannot get Ter'angreal to work the exact correct way is because she is not linked with a man. I feel that most things made in the AoL would be done with both, and until she realizes this she will just get the kinda close copies she has been makin. just a thought

 

Makes sense. And it would tie back to the men and women working together make things better theme that has been running throughout the series.

[Morsker]

The interesting case is the a'dam, where Elayne isn't only able to get it exactly right, but even to make modifications. I think this is because a'dam can only use saidar, because women can only be forced into all-female circles, and so Elayne's use of only half of the power is still able to make them perfectly. But it's also possible Elayne was just lucky with the a'dam, and could do well elsewhere.

[akira.taylor]

The interesting case is the a'dam, where Elayne isn't only able to get it exactly right, but even to make modifications. I think this is because a'dam can only use saidar, because women can only be forced into all-female circles, and so Elayne's use of only half of the power is still able to make them perfectly. But it's also possible Elayne was just lucky with the a'dam, and could do well elsewhere.

 

Well, the a'dam was created (originally, and all of the copies) with saidar, since it was about 2000 years post-breaking. So, while most ter'angreal were made in the Age of Legends (presumably with saidar and saidin), the a'dam is a special case.

[Muad Cheade]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

[herid]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

it's actually not really clear who made the domination band copies. RJ and BS stated several times that the only kind of ter'angreal the Seanchan can make is an a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

One can argue that the domination band is a kind of a'dam but I don't think that's really fair. It's a different ter'angreal.

[everetc]

This has led me to an interesting thought. Do the Forsaken not know how to make ter'angreal? Or did Semi make the Domination bands and it's copies? Why are the Forsaken unable to duplicate a stasis box, dream spike, paralis-net, or any other ter'angreal they have come across in the 3rd age? They are the ones with all the ancient knowledge.

[capuga]

This has led me to an interesting thought. Do the Forsaken not know how to make ter'angreal? Or did Semi make the Domination bands and it's copies? Why are the Forsaken unable to duplicate a stasis box, dream spike, paralis-net, or any other ter'angreal they have come across in the 3rd age? They are the ones with all the ancient knowledge.

 

Its likely that making ter'angreal is a Talent that the Forsaken apparently don't have. We see this happen when Elayne is making her ter'angreal. Even after she shows the other Aes Sedai how to do it, only a couple are actually able to duplicate her feat.

[Samhain]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

it's actually not really clear who made the domination band copies. RJ and BS stated several times that the only kind of ter'angreal the Seanchan can make is an a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

One can argue that the domination band is a kind of a'dam but I don't think that's really fair. It's a different ter'angreal.

 

Since the answer is that the Seanchan only know how to make a'dam, the obvious conclusion is that someone else either makes the rings for the Seanchan, or there is a finite number of rings that the Seanchan came into possession of.

[herid]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

it's actually not really clear who made the domination band copies. RJ and BS stated several times that the only kind of ter'angreal the Seanchan can make is an a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

One can argue that the domination band is a kind of a'dam but I don't think that's really fair. It's a different ter'angreal.

 

Since the answer is that the Seanchan only know how to make a'dam, the obvious conclusion is that someone else either makes the rings for the Seanchan, or there is a finite number of rings that the Seanchan came into possession of.

yes, of course. and I would tend to think it's the latter. it's mentioned that the Seanchan had those rings for a long time when most Forsaken were bound. and they seem to use them only in very exceptional circumstances. that would seem to indicate a limited supply.

but none of this explains where Semirhage got the domination band copies. as Mark said above, ter'angreal creation is a rare talent. strength in the power is not enough. Nynaeve is far stronger than Elayne and she can't make any ter'angreal, not even a'dam which seem to be easier to make than any other (the Seanchan can make them in large numbers).

[PhoenixUK]

Doesn't Rand in TGS mention a male aes sedai as being one of the best ter'angreal makers in the AOL? No mention of him working with women to make them

[Byzantine279]

Either she has a weak version of the Talent, which seems odd, she doesn't quite understand what she is doing, which is more than possible, or most ter'angreal require both Saidin and Saidar in order to function perfectly. It seem that it could be either of the last two options rather easily.

[bjsm]

This has led me to an interesting thought. Do the Forsaken not know how to make ter'angreal? Or did Semi make the Domination bands and it's copies? Why are the Forsaken unable to duplicate a stasis box, dream spike, paralis-net, or any other ter'angreal they have come across in the 3rd age? They are the ones with all the ancient knowledge.

 

I believe one of the Forsaken, I think Lanfear, at one point laments that none of the surviving Forsaken have the talent for making angreal. Presumably this is also true of ter'angreal.

 

While the theory that most ter'angreal require saidin and saidar is neat, there are other perfectly plausible explanations as well (Elayne just isn't very good yet; the ter'angreal she is trying to copy are too complicated for a beginner; etc.), and I think we just don't know.

[FarShainMael]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

it's actually not really clear who made the domination band copies. RJ and BS stated several times that the only kind of ter'angreal the Seanchan can make is an a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

One can argue that the domination band is a kind of a'dam but I don't think that's really fair. It's a different ter'angreal.

 

Since the answer is that the Seanchan only know how to make a'dam, the obvious conclusion is that someone else either makes the rings for the Seanchan, or there is a finite number of rings that the Seanchan came into possession of.

 

Perhaps they got them from the Eelfinn, who we're told have 'vast stores' of *angreals.

[maddface]

I think that the theory of Elayne's ter'angreal copies needing saidin is a good one. The a'dam point about only needing saidar to makes seems to reinforce this theory. As far as Semi having all those domination bands, Nyneave and Elayne found a set in Tanchico, who can say they weren't some lying around Seanchan in the same manner and Semi actually knew what they were and put them to effect. Although personally, I think she probably found them in a stasis box or got them from Moridin who has said he has items of the power unknown to the other Forsaken (i.e. the dream spike).

[herid]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

it's actually not really clear who made the domination band copies. RJ and BS stated several times that the only kind of ter'angreal the Seanchan can make is an a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

One can argue that the domination band is a kind of a'dam but I don't think that's really fair. It's a different ter'angreal.

 

Since the answer is that the Seanchan only know how to make a'dam, the obvious conclusion is that someone else either makes the rings for the Seanchan, or there is a finite number of rings that the Seanchan came into possession of.

 

Perhaps they got them from the Eelfinn, who we're told have 'vast stores' of *angreals.

I think this is unlikely. I don't think there are any portals to Finn world in Seanchan. At least Birgitte never mentions any and Tuon doesn't believe in Finns.

[kraefzke]

There is also the case of the Sad Bracelets/Domination Band as they were reproduced by the Seanchan as well.

it's actually not really clear who made the domination band copies. RJ and BS stated several times that the only kind of ter'angreal the Seanchan can make is an a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

One can argue that the domination band is a kind of a'dam but I don't think that's really fair. It's a different ter'angreal.

 

I'm with you there, I suppuse someone else made them. I do however think it entirely possible that the first DBs were made by only women in an effort to control the mad male channelers, so as with the a'dam, a woman alone can make perfect copies. So the Seanchan could have figured it out. I think, however, that other candidates are more likely, because I don't think BS would dub the DB an a'dam.

 

 

This has led me to an interesting thought. Do the Forsaken not know how to make ter'angreal? Or did Semi make the Domination bands and it's copies? Why are the Forsaken unable to duplicate a stasis box, dream spike, paralis-net, or any other ter'angreal they have come across in the 3rd age? They are the ones with all the ancient knowledge.

 

It might be, that one of the Forsaken (Semi in all probability) has a ter'angreal Talent, but knew all too well, that she would have to link with one of her male colleagues to create anything but a few special cases, and would'nt for lack of trust. That would'nt hinder her making DBs however.

 

Doesn't Rand in TGS mention a male aes sedai as being one of the best ter'angreal makers in the AOL? No mention of him working with women to make them

 

I don't remember that scene and would be very thankful for a quote. If Rand, indeed, stated this, it might simply be that linking was so commonplace in the AOL that Rand didn't saw need to mention it. It would be the T/talented man who wove the flows anyway.

 

I believe one of the Forsaken, I think Lanfear, at one point laments that none of the surviving Forsaken have the talent for making angreal. Presumably this is also true of ter'angreal.

 

While the theory that most ter'angreal require saidin and saidar is neat, there are other perfectly plausible explanations as well (Elayne just isn't very good yet; the ter'angreal she is trying to copy are too complicated for a beginner; etc.), and I think we just don't know.

 

Again a quote of this would be very nice. That doesn't contradict what I said above however, as the Talent for angreal and ter'angreal might be similar but seperate, or it might be that Semi didn't let her comrades know about her Talent, since she wasn't willing to link with them anyway (if linking is required for angreal).

As to your second statement, imho it just fits too perfectly to be anything else than the male/female thingy. Sure, we can't say for certain, but I'm sticking with that.

 

Edit: Removed a few typos. If there are some left, go easy on me, I'm not a native english speaker.

[herid]

 

 

 

This has led me to an interesting thought. Do the Forsaken not know how to make ter'angreal? Or did Semi make the Domination bands and it's copies? Why are the Forsaken unable to duplicate a stasis box, dream spike, paralis-net, or any other ter'angreal they have come across in the 3rd age? They are the ones with all the ancient knowledge.

 

It might be, that one of the Forsaken (Semi in all probability) has a ter'angreal Talent, but knew all too well, that she would have to link with one of her male colleagues to create anything but a few special cases, and would'nt for lack of trust. That would'nt hinder her making DBs however.

 

Actually, I looked it up and it seems that the ability to create ter'angreal is not that rare.

Janya wanted to know everything, to know how everything was done and why it happened that way. She had been extremely disappointed when she could not learn to make ter’angreal—only three sisters aside from Elayne had managed that, so far, with very spotty success—and she had made a concerted effort to learn this skill even after the testing showed she fell short of the required strength in using Earth.

-CoT, Ch 17

It does make you wonder why the Forsaken can't (won't) do it.

 

 

Doesn't Rand in TGS mention a male aes sedai as being one of the best ter'angreal makers in the AOL? No mention of him working with women to make them

 

I don't remember that scene and would be very thankful for a quote. If Rand, indeed, stated this, it might simply be that linking was so commonplace in the AOL that Rand didn't saw need to mention it. It would be the T/talented man who wove the flows anyway.

 

 

I found the reference.

 

He froze. Jorlen Corbesan had been one of the most talented Aes Sedai before the Breaking, a man who had crafted some of the most amazing ter'angreal Rand had ever seen. Except Rand had not seen them. Those were Lews Therin's memories, not his. Jorlen s research facility of Sharom had been destroyed—the man himself killed—by the backlash of Power from the Bore.

-tGS, Ch 5

No women are mentioned here although it's not out of realm of possibility that some were helping Corbesan.

[David Selig]

I think it's just that the simpler ter'angreal can be created and copied with only saidar or siadin, if the channeller has this Talent. But the more complicated ones need a mixed circle to create them.

 

Don't forget Elayne managed to copy perfectly a lot of the dream ter'angreals which require channelling. I doubt all of them were originally made with saidin, I think they are just simpler than the twisted ring and the foxhead.

[jwillis7]

I think it's just that the simpler ter'angreal can be created and copied with only saidar or siadin, if the channeller has this Talent. But the more complicated ones need a mixed circle to create them.

 

Don't forget Elayne managed to copy perfectly a lot of the dream ter'angreals which require channelling. I doubt all of them were originally made with saidin, I think they are just simpler than the twisted ring and the foxhead.

i thought her copies did not work as well as the original, well not as well as the ring

[David Selig]

I think it's just that the simpler ter'angreal can be created and copied with only saidar or siadin, if the channeller has this Talent. But the more complicated ones need a mixed circle to create them.

 

Don't forget Elayne managed to copy perfectly a lot of the dream ter'angreals which require channelling. I doubt all of them were originally made with saidin, I think they are just simpler than the twisted ring and the foxhead.

i thought her copies did not work as well as the original, well not as well as the ring

IIRC she copied the other dream ter'angreal perfectly (the amber plaque and the iron disc), it's just that their originals were less useful than the twisted ring - they don't allow strong channelling in TAR and the wearer appears insubstantial there, and that applies to the copies too.

[kraefzke]

I think it's just that the simpler ter'angreal can be created and copied with only saidar or siadin, if the channeller has this Talent. But the more complicated ones need a mixed circle to create them.

 

Don't forget Elayne managed to copy perfectly a lot of the dream ter'angreals which require channelling. I doubt all of them were originally made with saidin, I think they are just simpler than the twisted ring and the foxhead.

i thought her copies did not work as well as the original, well not as well as the ring

IIRC she copied the other dream ter'angreal perfectly (the amber plaque and the iron disc), it's just that their originals were less useful than the twisted ring - they don't allow strong channelling in TAR and the wearer appears insubstantial there, and that applies to the copies too.

 

I don't remember if it is ever stated wether the copies of the plaque&disc are perfect or not. The originals, however, were weak to begin with, so maybe it's hard to tell even for Elayne (and other T'A'R-goers). I remember one of the Forsaken (Moggy?) stating that those were probably made to train T'A'R beginners, since they show only a weak reflection of the user in the world of dreams.

 

I like the point on complexity though: Needing circles only for more complex ter'angreals makes perfect sense to me!

[David Selig]

I found the quote:

LoC, Ch. 7

 

The other three would be carrying small plaques once amber, with a sleeping woman worked inside each. Even if she had all six ter’angreal in front of her, Elayne would not have been able to pick out the two originals; those copies had gone very well.

 

It was Demandred who called those ter'angreals "a minor ter’angreal by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students.". A confirmation that those are among the most simple of ter'angreals. Though at the time she was wearing the copy of the imperfect copy of the twisted ring, but due to her insubstantial appearance Demandred thought she was wearing one of those who require channelling.

[kraefzke]

I found the quote:

LoC, Ch. 7

 

The other three would be carrying small plaques once amber, with a sleeping woman worked inside each. Even if she had all six ter’angreal in front of her, Elayne would not have been able to pick out the two originals; those copies had gone very well.

 

It was Demandred who called those ter'angreals "a minor ter’angreal by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students.". A confirmation that those are among the most simple of ter'angreals. Though at the time she was wearing the copy of the imperfect copy of the twisted ring, but due to her insubstantial appearance Demandred thought she was wearing one of those who require channelling.

 

Ah yes, I remember the scene now. Thank you very much, also for the quote!

[Mandro]

I've thought along these lines too, in general. I think that the TA that are of any value need, maybe not a male channeler, but an understanding of the quirks of male channeling.

 

As for A'Dam being the only TA that Seanchan being able to make, I find that impossible, because of the the Bloodknives rings.

 

My big TA problem with the series, is when they were clearing out the stockpile that the knitting circle had, and noone thought twice about channeling a gateway, or a shield in one case. Meanwhile even being in the same room with an active ter'angreal, with another terangreal could lead to severing, but Hey! Lets pack up these few thousand relics from the age of legends and march through a giant gateway! No Problem There!!