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Dreamspike


Gir
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Didn't Moiraine collect up all those *angreal? They'd have been taken to the WT, I believe. And also, didn't Elayne get drawn to the Tower through Need when she was looking in T'A'R for something that would help Rand with the WT?

 

(Feeling too lazy to find the detailed refs.. sorry.. :tongue: )

 

OK, found the other ref: it's LoC13. Of course, this is after the loss of Moiraine and Lanfear.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve are using Need in T'A'R. Need takes them to various places, including a heavily guarded storeroom in TV, apparently used to store things like Fain's ruby dagger and similarly dangerous objects.. but we haven't found out why Need took them there.

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Didn't Moiraine collect up all those *angreal? They'd have been taken to the WT, I believe. And also, didn't Elayne get drawn to the Tower through Need when she was looking in T'A'R for something that would help Rand with the WT?

 

(Feeling too lazy to find the detailed refs.. sorry.. :tongue: )

 

OK, found the other ref: it's LoC13. Of course, this is after the loss of Moiraine and Lanfear.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve are using Need in T'A'R. Need takes them to various places, including a heavily guarded storeroom in TV, apparently used to store things like Fain's ruby dagger and similarly dangerous objects.. but we haven't found out why Need took them there.

 

Well the horn could be there. I'd think that's going to be needed.

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They were using Need to 'find a way to convince the Salidar Aes Sedai that they should not go back to Elaida'. The HoV isn't really relevant to that. However, the Bowl - which draws both saidin and saidar even when used by women alone - is a rather interesting device which might help the guardians balance the servants.

 

Going OT a bit and rambling, sorry.

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In my first re-read of the series (book 5 so far), I came across what I thought was an interesting tidbit following Rand vs. Asmodean's battle in Rhuidean.

 

1) The both travel to just outside the city, they don't travel in to it.

 

The Shadow Rising (Book 4) p971. Lanfear said to Rand and Asmodean, "You have made a

thorough job of it. Can you feel the traces? This place was shielded in some way. You did

not leave enough for me to say how."

 

2) Rhuidean had a shield over it, a near dome around the entire city.

 

p 976. a black metal shaft like a spear standing

upright, improbably balanced on the pile.

 

3) A black metal shaft in a square filled with Angreal... hmm...

 

It would seem to me that this would be a dreamspike, or at least something extremely similar. If it is a dreamspike, well then we should have been prepared to see them in TOM. This would mean a dreamspike with Slayer, one at the Black Tower and one in the hands of the good guys? If so, is there a way that the good guys can use this angreal to an advantage?

 

 

3) The size of the object you mention doesn't match the descriptions of the dramspikes, which were on a shelf when Graendal saw them, and fit in Perrin's pouch.

Ahh, 23 posts and someone finally points this out. but apparently no one has looked it up yet (as Druid seems to be going on memory):

 

a black metal shaft like a spear standing upright, improbably balanced on the pile
a long, spikelike piece of metal, silvery and topped with a large metal head set with golden inlay

black≠silvery

 

Also, I can't recall anything that suggests the dreamspike will balance improbably. It's a hard thing to search, so I might be missing something, but from what I recall, it is usually just stuffed in the dirt, or carried. Evidently it would work even if you left it sitting on a shelf in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

However, I do think it quite possible that Moridin has raided the Rhuidean stash, as I discussed here. He might be able to get past Rand's wards by virtue of the link between them, which would explain the strange incident with Callandor in TPOD (when Narishma goes after it and almost gets killed).

Edited by Terez
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Ahh, 23 posts and someone finally points this out. but apparently no one has looked it up yet (as Druid seems to be going on memory):

There is no need to rebuke other people, Terez. Specially not making the same failure. I have been rereading the posts on this topic and I noticed that some had looked it up. But even if they didn't look it up, most of the reactions made more sense as yours. You didn't add anything to this topic; you only killed the discussion! Obviously you haven't read all the posts here. FarShainMael referred to the books several times. Besides, do you always have to look it up?

 

Posted by Beidomon

Dreamspike is a nice theory, but there are some problems that have already been stated:

1. The dreamspike shield cannot be seen in the real world, unlike the "fog" around Rhuidean.

2. Dreamspike shield would likely be much larger than Rhuidean (unless you can calibrate it - who knows, anything is possible).

 

Also, Lanfear wasn't sure how Rhuidean was shielded. She would have recognized a Dreamspike.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Rhuidean *angreal are either still in Rhuidean or stored in a top secret warehouse in Cairhien (Indiana Jones-style).

I believe Beidomon looked it up, but even if he didn't, he has enough knowledge of the books to post good arguments. It's a pity he didn't mention the difference between those two shields in TAR. Perrin could enter the Dome in TAR; after he had replaced it everybody was caught in the White Tower. Rhuidan can(could) not be entered at all in TAR(tSR, Ch. 23). Beidomon might be wrong (and so would I), he used good arguments.

 

Posted by Terez

black≠silvery

If you don't polish silver from time to time, it will get black.

Shape, size and structure don't matter either. Among the Ebou Dar stash, Elaine found 3 angreal and all three were totally different.

Both Cadsuane and Nynaeve wear a paralis-net. Yet they are totally different. Even if you don't believe Nynaeve's collection of *angreal is a paralis-net, the Wells in it are different.

So, this argument isn't valid.

 

Nevertheless, I agree(?!) with you that the black metal shaft isn't some sort of dreamspike. As a matter of fact I'm convinced it isn't. After seeing a lot of shields that were tied off, I didn't even consider the shield around Rhuidean being caused by a Dreamspike.

 

Week 3 Question: After Moiraine fought Lanfear in Cairhien, what happened to the wagons full of ter'angreal and such that came out of the Aiel Waste? Are they just in some storeroom there? And what happened to Moiraine's horse Aldieb?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The ter'angreal and so forth that came from Rhuidean are still in Cairhien for the moment, warded by Rand so they aren't accessible to anyone but him. Aldieb is in the stables at the Sun Palace.

 

However, I do think it quite possible that Moridin has raided the Rhuidean stash, as I discussed here. He might be able to get past Rand's wards by virtue of the link between them, which would explain the strange incident with Callandor in TPOD (when Narishma goes after it and almost gets killed).

So, Moridin couldn't get around Rands' ward and had to place a second one around it. Narishma, however, must have a special talent to get around Moridins' ward for he wasn't very strong then. (CoT, Ch. 23)

 

I don't understand what reasons you have to assume they are not only physically, but also mentally linked. Even Moridin didn't understand their link. Besides, why didn't Rand notice that connection. Is(was) it one-way traffic?

Before Rand left Rhuidean he gave orders to those who remained there to rebuild the city as far as they could and send an envoy to the Ogier. This is the only thing Egwene heard; I don't think it is to far of a stretch to assume he also ordered to clear the rubble and to store everything undamaged.

Ishamael hasn't stolen anything in Tear.

Moridin wasn't interested in the Ebou Dar stash, untill he heard about the Bowl of Winds. He even thought Sammael was a fool for taking the risk.

 

Furthermore you seem to forget that a lot of Aiel remained in Rhuidean. OK, they aren't warriors, they are craftsmen, merchants, goatherders, paysants. Nevertheless, they are Aiel. Every Aiel, warrior or not, Maiden of the Spear or not, is a deadly fighter.

We can assume there are more Aiel now, for Rand left for Cairhien with only 6 clans, 5 followed later.

What do you think what had happened if that trash was stolen from Rhuidean. Do you think they had just chuckled, being glad they got rid of that stuff or do you think that theft hasn't been noticed by the Aiel. Do you think Moridin could have walked through Rhuidean, searching for things he wanted to have. Wouldn't they have send a message to Rand, wouldn't they have told him when he visited them with Min.

Don't you realise how much ji they should have lost. I think they would have broken the world before Rand could do it, in order to find those stolen objects, to regain their honnor.

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For someone who claims to want answers, you sure do avoid the obvious ones.

 

FarShainMael referred to the books several times.

But not to the description of the dreamspike, which was the point.

 

Besides, do you always have to look it up?

It's helpful, if you want to avoid discussing moot points.

 

Posted by Terez

black≠silvery

If you don't polish silver from time to time, it will get black.

Not with ter'angreal, usually. The material they are made from is changed by the Power so that it is nearly-indestructible, and the 'flat silvery ring, ten feet across and thin as a blade' sat in that same square just as long, presumably.

 

Shape, size and structure don't matter either. Among the Ebou Dar stash, Elaine found 3 angreal and all three were totally different.

If we're not going by size and shape then there is no reason to suspect the black shaft of being a dreamspike at all. Any object on the pile would have done as well with the other arguments being used. But Graendal recognized the objects by sight, so....

 

I don't understand what reasons you have to assume they are not only physically, but also mentally linked. Even Moridin didn't understand their link. Besides, why didn't Rand notice that connection. Is(was) it one-way traffic?

Did you read books 8-12?

 

Moridin wasn't interested in the Ebou Dar stash, untill he heard about the Bowl of Winds. He even thought Sammael was a fool for taking the risk.

Sammael was a fool, for some very specific reasons. Moridin is smarter.

 

Furthermore you seem to forget that a lot of Aiel remained in Rhuidean. OK, they aren't warriors, they are craftsmen, merchants, goatherders, paysants. Nevertheless, they are Aiel. Every Aiel, warrior or not, Maiden of the Spear or not, is a deadly fighter.

We can assume there are more Aiel now, for Rand left for Cairhien with only 6 clans, 5 followed later.

What do you think what had happened if that trash was stolen from Rhuidean. Do you think they had just chuckled, being glad they got rid of that stuff or do you think that theft hasn't been noticed by the Aiel.

If he raided the stash, it was probably in Cairhien. There's nothing to suggest that anyone has inventoried the collection since Moiraine disappeared.

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Posted by Terez

For someone who claims to want answers, you sure do avoid the obvious ones.

I didn't post any questions on behalf of this topic. After reading Girs' theory I disagreed with him, but I decided to look how the discussion would develop. I was convinced that the shield was created and tied of by the AS that accompanied the Jenn Aiel. Later I needn't post anymore, for Beidomon gave about the same answer as I should have given. Of course, I'd used different words, I'd given some references and had mentioned the difference between the shields.

Well, you obviously want to give me an answer, so I have a question for you:

Could Rhuidean still be shielded in TAR.

 

But not to the description of the dreamspike, which was the point.

It was described by Gir. Does every-one have to repeat the description?

 

It's helpful, if you want to avoid discussing moot points

I often have written my post before I look it up. I have never had to change my post. I just look it up for the reference.

 

Not with ter'angreal, usually. The material they are made from is changed by the Power so that it is nearly-indestructible, and the 'flat silvery ring, ten feet across and thin as a blade' sat in that same square just as long, presumably.

As you said. Usually

 

If we're not going by size and shape then there is no reason to suspect the black shaft of being a dreamspike at all. Any object on the pile would have done as well with the other arguments being used.

If you had read my post you should have known that I don't believe the shaft is a sort of dreamspike. I only told you that it wasn't a valid argument.

 

But Graendal recognized the objects by sight, so....

Finally you have found a reasonable argument.

 

Did you read books 8-12?

Do you want to score? Perhaps I worded it poorly. What I wanted to say is, that there is not the slightest hint of a telepathic connection.

 

Sammael was a fool, for some very specific reasons. Moridin is smarter.

Smart enough to avoid any risk!

 

However, I do think it quite possible that Moridin has raided the Rhuidean stash, as I discussed here. He might be able to get past Rand's wards by virtue of the link between them, which would explain the strange incident with Callandor in TPOD (when Narishma goes after it and almost gets killed).

Emphasis mine.

 

If he raided the stash, it was probably in Cairhien. There's nothing to suggest that anyone has inventoried the collection since Moiraine disappeared.

 

Week 3 Question: After Moiraine fought Lanfear in Cairhien, what happened to the wagons full of ter'angreal and such that came out of the Aiel Waste? Are they just in some storeroom there? And what happened to Moiraine's horse Aldieb?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The ter'angreal and so forth that came from Rhuidean are still in Cairhien for the moment, warded by Rand so they aren't accessible to anyone but him. Aldieb is in the stables at the Sun Palace.

Emphasis mine.

What do you think I'm going to believe. Jordans answer or your assumption?

Edited by Wantanswers
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Looked through the Towers of Midnight pages at the encyclopaedia site; have not yet read the actual book.

From my understanding, dreamspike prevents channelers from doing gateways from the area.

 

Whether Rhuidean had dreamspike I guess would be known by only the author.

 

Some points::

-items of the same type can have different sizes & shapes, perhaps even colors

-different type items can have a common function

-same shape items might at times be of different types regardless of their size

A number of those others might have already been posted.

Edited by mb
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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

 

I believe a dreamspike can work in the real world or in T'A'R.

 

Plus we know that it works in the real world because the Asha'man can't travel out of the Black Tower.

Talk about missing the point.

To activate a dreamspike, it's believed it has to be in TAR. It affects the waking world from there.

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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

 

I believe a dreamspike can work in the real world or in T'A'R.

 

Plus we know that it works in the real world because the Asha'man can't travel out of the Black Tower.

Talk about missing the point.

To activate a dreamspike, it's believed it has to be in TAR. It affects the waking world from there.

 

Perhaps, maybe I did misunderstand the intentions of the posts previous to mine. Or, possibly, the points/arguments weren't that clear. The impression I got from reading through the thread was people wondering if the effects of the dream-spike affected both the waking world and T'A'R and not that they were wondering if the dream-spike could be activated in both the waking world and T'A'R. So I was merely pointing out that we know for sure that the effects, at least, happen in both the waking world and T'A'R. I don't remember anything that indicated the dream-spike could only be activated in T'A'R (which would actually seem strange to me since it's main purpose seems to be blocking gateways in the waking world more so then blocking movement in the dream) but I only read ToM once when it came out a few months ago so I don't have all the details memorized as well as the earlier books that I have re-read many times.

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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

 

I believe a dreamspike can work in the real world or in T'A'R.

 

Plus we know that it works in the real world because the Asha'man can't travel out of the Black Tower.

Talk about missing the point.

To activate a dreamspike, it's believed it has to be in TAR. It affects the waking world from there.

 

Perhaps, maybe I did misunderstand the intentions of the posts previous to mine. Or, possibly, the points/arguments weren't that clear. The impression I got from reading through the thread was people wondering if the effects of the dream-spike affected both the waking world and T'A'R and not that they were wondering if the dream-spike could be activated in both the waking world and T'A'R. So I was merely pointing out that we know for sure that the effects, at least, happen in both the waking world and T'A'R. I don't remember anything that indicated the dream-spike could only be activated in T'A'R (which would actually seem strange to me since it's main purpose seems to be blocking gateways in the waking world more so then blocking movement in the dream) but I only read ToM once when it came out a few months ago so I don't have all the details memorized as well as the earlier books that I have re-read many times.

 

 

A few things that stand out to me on this are first, when the Dreamspike was activated by Moridin it immediately disappeared to T'A'R and he said he assumed Graendal would know where to find it.

This does kind of infer that for it to work, it must be in T'A'R but we don't know that 100% either. Although, the name itself kind of infers this as well :wink: but again isn't 100%

 

Second, as soon as Mesaana discovers during the fight in T'A'R that they can't leave the area, she immediately knows there's a Dreamspike there.

This seems to make it pretty obvious that the Forsaken know that a Dreamspike does more than just restrict gateways. It also infers that there is nothing else that would accomplish this. She doesn't go through a list of options, just immediately thinks Dreamspike.

 

Third, the colour of the dome inside Rhuidean is described as a sharp blue while the colour of the dome in T'A'R is violet.

 

What options do we have then?

Either a Dreamspike does work in the waking world and presents a different colour dome that appears there when used that way or it was a different kind of ter'angreal, possibly a larger, more powerful and less mobile version of a Dreamspike.

 

Thought?

Other options?

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It probably wasn't a dreamspike but it might have been something similar made to work in the real world.

 

I suspect though size isn't an issue, how could anyone use it as a personal shield (to prevent allies or enemies from dropping in on your palace) if it has to cover such a massive area? I think that it was set to its maximum size to hold perrin in place no matter how far he tried to run.

 

I believe a dreamspike can work in the real world or in T'A'R.

 

Plus we know that it works in the real world because the Asha'man can't travel out of the Black Tower.

Talk about missing the point.

To activate a dreamspike, it's believed it has to be in TAR. It affects the waking world from there.

 

Perhaps, maybe I did misunderstand the intentions of the posts previous to mine. Or, possibly, the points/arguments weren't that clear. The impression I got from reading through the thread was people wondering if the effects of the dream-spike affected both the waking world and T'A'R and not that they were wondering if the dream-spike could be activated in both the waking world and T'A'R. So I was merely pointing out that we know for sure that the effects, at least, happen in both the waking world and T'A'R. I don't remember anything that indicated the dream-spike could only be activated in T'A'R (which would actually seem strange to me since it's main purpose seems to be blocking gateways in the waking world more so then blocking movement in the dream) but I only read ToM once when it came out a few months ago so I don't have all the details memorized as well as the earlier books that I have re-read many times.

 

 

A few things that stand out to me on this are first, when the Dreamspike was activated by Moridin it immediately disappeared to T'A'R and he said he assumed Graendal would know where to find it.

This does kind of infer that for it to work, it must be in T'A'R but we don't know that 100% either. Although, the name itself kind of infers this as well :wink: but again isn't 100%

 

Second, as soon as Mesaana discovers during the fight in T'A'R that they can't leave the area, she immediately knows there's a Dreamspike there.

This seems to make it pretty obvious that the Forsaken know that a Dreamspike does more than just restrict gateways. It also infers that there is nothing else that would accomplish this. She doesn't go through a list of options, just immediately thinks Dreamspike.

 

Third, the colour of the dome inside Rhuidean is described as a sharp blue while the colour of the dome in T'A'R is violet.

 

What options do we have then?

Either a Dreamspike does work in the waking world and presents a different colour dome that appears there when used that way or it was a different kind of ter'angreal, possibly a larger, more powerful and less mobile version of a Dreamspike.

 

Thought?

Other options?

There hasn't been used a ter'angreal at all to shield Rhuidean.

 

Callandor was shielded and tied off. It was only accessible by the Dragon Reborn. It disappeared after he took Callandor. But no ter'angreal was found.

Rand shielded it before he left Tear. He returned and changed that shield after he had learned how to invert the waeves. We can be sure those shields weren't made with the help of any ter'angreal. Perhaps he has used the fat man angreal to create those shields, but he must have tied them off.

Moridin probably has placed another shield around Callandor and tied it off. This is the only way to explain that Narishma was nearly killed when he tried to take Callandor, notwithstanding Rand gave him ample instructions how to break that shield. No ter'angreal or the remains of it were found.

Rand shielded his dreams and tied them off but didn't use a ter'angreal.

Rand created a selective shield around Asmodean, that couldn't be passed by Shadowspawn and channelers. Rand himself couldn't even pass it. No ter'angreal was ever used.

Rand warded the Rhuidean stash in Caerhien without the use of a ter'angreal.

 

Of course, we have seen the shield around Far Madding and it is made with a ter'angreal. But there is an important difference between that shield and the shield created with a dreamspike. Once in the Dome you can use channeling; in Far Madding you can't.

 

Week 7 Question: I would like to ask about knotting a weave. Does a channeler determine how long it will last when she knots it or is it dependent on her strength? If a channeler who knotted a weave died, would the weave dissipate immediately?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The length of time the knot lasts is the choice of whoever makes the knot. It is not strength dependent. And the knot would continue in existence if the channeler died, at least if the channeler had not set it to unravel in a certain time. Remember, tying off a weave is a way to keep the weave in existence without having to actually channel to maintain it, so once it is tied off, there is really no need for the channeler to continue living for the weave to be maintained.

 

So, a shield can be made, tied off and maintained, even after the death of it's creator. I am not looking for a bird, far away in the sky, while another is sitting just in front of me. I'll only wonder why he didn't fly away. And here I wondered if the AOL AS had the capability to create such a shield. And I think they had.

 

When the first Aiel came to Rhuidean it wasn't shielded at all. They met tens of Jenn Aiel, accompanied by 2 AS. We don't know if there were more AS hidden in Rhuidean; we don't know if there were male AS who hadn't gone mad. But we know they had a bracelet, an angreal almost strong as an sa'angreal and of course they an entrance key to the strongest female sa'angreal we know off; the Choedan Kal. Yes, I think they had the capability to create the shield around Rhuidean, even if there were only 2 AS left in Rhuidean. They could have formed a circle and used both ter'angreal. The shield around Rhuidean is destroyed with the male half of the Choedan Kal; it seems reasonable to assume it is created with the female half of it.

Of course, this is the bird I saw in front of me. Perhaps I should have looked at that bird, far away in the sky.

 

Considering everything, I think the dreamspike is quite useless a device.

Perrin could walk in and out the Dome. He moved the dreamspike to Tar Valon and all channelers and dreamers there were caught in it. If Taim is going to trust on the dreamspike he could be surprised. Even if he had sent some of his pets (if he knows how to) into TAR to guard the dreamspike there, they would be useless against dreamers and wolves. Their weaves are meaningless and they are to proud to train with weapons. And... Perrin knows how to destroy the dreamspike.

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I don't think it was a Dreamspike. RJ told us that Rhuidean wasn't accessible in the Dream World, just like a stedding. A Dreamspike doesn't do that, at least not that we've seen. Naturally, it could be that a Dreamspike can operate in different ways, but we have nothing to base such an assumption on, so it remains in the realm of pure conjecture. A valid belief, but not an argument by any means.

 

Also, I stand by Terez's inference that Dreamspikes all look alike. It simply makes more sense, having read Graendal's reaction to seeing it.

 

Is it something similar to a Dreamspike? Depends what you mean by similar. It seems to have been blocking attempts to Travel directly into Rhuidean, so in that regard it is. But my personal belief is that previous posters were right to suggest it was some sort of a ward put there by those AS we saw with the Jenn Aiel.

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The only problem I have with the use of the access keys to create that big of a Ward is the attention they would bring. Remember, Rhuidean is noticeably bigger than even Tar Valon.

At that time during the breaking where men were still running around going mad would you want to bring even one of them down on top of you?

 

Maybe the amount of power used by Rand and Asmo would disrupt such a Ward but I just think it more likely that they destroyed whatever ter'angreal in the courtyard that was producing the effect.

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