Is Taim a Chosen?

[dholm]

That is circular logic. Taim is Moridin therefore he channels True Power all the time since he can't do it as Taim? No. Ishamael refuses to channel the One Power and stresses it at every opportunity, and when he becomes Moridin, he does the same.

it's not circular. he channels TP as Moridin and OP as Taim. there is nothing circular about it.

Your claim was that he channeled the True Power as much as he did because he was forced to channel the One Power as Taim. That is circular logic, because it presupposes that Taim is Moridin.

 

If we were to assume that this theory is correct, it means that there was an actual Mazrim Taim (or at least a different imposter than Ishamael himself) -- the "real" Taim fell and was captured by the Aes Sedai when Rand proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn by fighting Ishamael above Falme. Taim was then freed. What happened to him, then? You would have us believe that they went to the effort of freeing Taim only to have Moridin impersonate him?

 

That's exactly what I think happened. Moreover, it can be proved beyond doubt regardless of whether Taim is Moridin or not. The current Taim is an impostor. I have a separate thread on it and I wrote up the proof in my blog.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/110/entry-1158-taim-is-an-impostor/

Considering how I posted in that thread to explain how your theory didn't make sense, I am somewhat surprised you would reference it. No, it doesn't work, move on.

 

The original Taim may have been a light-sider, just someone who could channel and declared himself a Dragon. Or he may have been a darkfriend. It's hard to say and is not important. If Moridin wanted to take his place and become Rand's adviser it was quite logical to kidnap Taim, kill him and then impersonate him to get close to Rand. That's more or less what Arangar did with Cabriana Mecandes. Mesaana did the same with Danelle. This is hardly original or strange, quite the opposite.

There are notable differences. Moridin could not expect Rand to give Taim such an important position. There is no reason to suppose that, and risking yourself in such an endeavor with nothing solid to gain is rather foolish -- especially since Moridin is important. He is Nae'blis, he can't easily spend months undercover. Both Aran'gar and Mesaana had good reasons to impersonate the people that they did. Aran'gar was not using a One Power disguise, and Danelle was most likely carefully selected as someone who resembled Mesaana physically and with few friends. Danelle had also been gone from the Tower for many years, so slight discrepancies -- a few inches in height, a change in weight -- would be dismissed as faulty memory.

 

Why? What is the point?

 

the point would be to become Rand's adviser, obviously. that's what was his original plan. That's what Ishy did with Hawkwing. It was a natural plot for him. He didn't come to Rand to lead the BT - he knew nothing about it. and it would be completely natural for Rand to recruit Taim's help. Rand was alone and looking for male channelers to help him. Here Taim shows up. He is an experienced channeler and he is willing to help. Of course Rand would take him on. Moreover, this Taim makes a huge strategic decision on the spot when Rand takes him to the Farm. He shows Rand how to detect the ability to channel. This is what allows to grow the BT quickly. without it Rand would be stuck in the mire possibly for years. and Taim doesn't consult anyone about this decision. he just shows Rand how to detect channeling. Forsaken (including Ishy) don't normally tolerate such initiative. they treat their followers like dogs and demand total obedience. that's mentioned many times. Ishy/Moridin in particular does not tolerate uninvited initiative. when Jarna killed Tamra without his approval, he killed Jarna rather painfully (CoS, prologue)

Ishamael killed Jarna because she was trying to kill the Dragon Reborn without his permission. It had nothing to do with Tamra's death specifically.

 

The Chosen only have a problem with initiative when it goes against their wishes. Having a Friend of the Dark -- Taim -- as the leader of the male channelers that Rand would create is excellent for the Shadow, especially since Taim could not stop Rand from creating them -- which Logain explains to Rand when they meet. Even if Rand did not learn the trick, he would have found out eventually, or Logain would have known it when he answered Rand's amnesty. Rand is ta'veren -- what he needs, he gets.

 

During Artur Hawkwing's reign, Ishamael was working more or less alone -- none of the other Chosen were back, and he could not rely on their help. Also, Hawkwing was not Rand, and he could not channel. The risk with Hawkwing was far less than it would be with Rand.

 

Taim only leads the Black Tower because Rand put him in that position, and the Dragon made that decision on his own -- no one influenced him, or could be certain that he would give that position to Taim. Why would Moridin bother? Especially considering the risk. Taim is shorter (he is "almost as tall as Rand", whereas Moridin is "easily as tall as Rand"), which is a considerable failing in an Illusion. Remember how careful Sammael was in his dealings with Sevanna; he never let her touch him because the Illusion was so fragile. I do not recall any incident where Taim does anything of the kind. Rand actually pinned something on Taim's collar. It's too risky.

Moridin and Taim are almost the same height. If anything it's an argument for the theory that Taim=Moridin, not against it.

Next, the disguise might be made with TP, not OP and we know absolutely nothing about TP disguises. also, even an OP disguise can be very effective. it depends on how well it's made. That's evident in your example but also in Lanfear's case. When she is disguised as Else she is afraid to let Mat touch her. Presumably the disguise is rather flimsy. But when she is Kielle (who is very unlike her in appearance) she gets close to people and touches both Rand and Mat. Sammael even mentions this

Her skin became coppery but dull, her hair and eyes dark but flat; she appeared gaunt and frail, a once-beautiful Domani woman slowly losing a battle against illness. He barely stopped his lip from curling. One touch would prove the angular contours of that face were not hers—only the most subtle use of Illusion could pass that test—but Graendal seemed wedded to flamboyance. The next moment she was herself again, wearing a wry smile.

-LoC, Ch 6

so it's possible to weave a subtle OP disguise and if anybody can do it - one of the Forsaken surely can.

What? It doesn't matter if it's two inches or ten, there is a height difference. There is no subtlety involved in making yourself shorter. Why would Moridin use such a disguise? Why not just make Taim his actual height? They are close enough that you would need someone as tall as them to notice the difference. That someone is Rand, to us, the readers. We know they are not the same height. So what, is it just to fool us?

 

Perhaps you misunderstand what "subtle" means. It means that there is almost no difference from the real thing -- meaning it behaves as you would expect it to behave whenever you do something to it. This is why disguising yourself as wearing a different dress is an awful use of Illusion -- we see several times that the weave cannot keep up if the dress is moved too quickly, so the real dress "pokes through". Keille was not a subtle Illusion, and Lanfear only got away with it because no one wanted to touch her.

 

Moridin is not Taim. There is no reason for it, there is no evidence for it, and it leaves great holes left unexplained. Just accept it.

[herid]

That is circular logic. Taim is Moridin therefore he channels True Power all the time since he can't do it as Taim? No. Ishamael refuses to channel the One Power and stresses it at every opportunity, and when he becomes Moridin, he does the same.

it's not circular. he channels TP as Moridin and OP as Taim. there is nothing circular about it.

Your claim was that he channeled the True Power as much as he did because he was forced to channel the One Power as Taim. That is circular logic, because it presupposes that Taim is Moridin.

 

 

 

 

I don't presuppose anything. what I'm saying is that IF Taim=Moridin then its' quite reasonable that he channels OP as Taim and TP as Moridin. I'm not trying to use it as an argument to prove that Taim is Moridin. all I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong with Taim channeling OP and Moridin TP if they are the same person.

 

 

Considering how I posted in that thread to explain how your theory didn't make sense, I am somewhat surprised you would reference it. No, it doesn't work, move on.

you are surprised because you totally misunderstood what I was claiming. I suggest you read it again.

 

 

The original Taim may have been a light-sider, just someone who could channel and declared himself a Dragon. Or he may have been a darkfriend. It's hard to say and is not important. If Moridin wanted to take his place and become Rand's adviser it was quite logical to kidnap Taim, kill him and then impersonate him to get close to Rand. That's more or less what Arangar did with Cabriana Mecandes. Mesaana did the same with Danelle. This is hardly original or strange, quite the opposite.

There are notable differences. Moridin could not expect Rand to give Taim such an important position.

 

Yes, he could. as I said that would be most natural. he is the first supposedly light-sided male channeler Rand meets. Taim came asking to be Rand's adviser, almost an equal. he is talking about a pact between them. this is clearly what he was planning and expecting when he showed up.

 

There is no reason to suppose that, and risking yourself in such an endeavor with nothing solid to gain is rather foolish -- especially since Moridin is important. He is Nae'blis, he can't easily spend months undercover. Both Aran'gar and Mesaana had good reasons to impersonate the people that they did.

so would Moridin in impersonating Taim! There are quite a few strong arguments against Taim=Moridin but this is really quite absurd. Taim would be more than justified in expecting to become close to Rand once he showed up.

Aran'gar was not using a One Power disguise, and Danelle was most likely carefully selected as someone who resembled Mesaana physically and with few friends. Danelle had also been gone from the Tower for many years, so slight discrepancies -- a few inches in height, a change in weight -- would be dismissed as faulty memory.

Danelle is a young Aes Sedai. she hasn't been away from the Tower for long. and she doesn't look very much Mesaana. but it's hardly important. It shows that impersonating someone with OP is not a foreign concept and some Forsaken do it. Graendal impersonates Lady Basine using OP. Lanfear impersonates Else and Kielle. Semirhage even impersonates Tuon when she wants to. The Forsaken do it all the time. It's completely in character for one of them to impersonate Taim.

 

 

 

 

so it's possible to weave a subtle OP disguise and if anybody can do it - one of the Forsaken surely can.

What? It doesn't matter if it's two inches or ten, there is a height difference. There is no subtlety involved in making yourself shorter. Why would Moridin use such a disguise?

 

because he had to make himself close to Taim's original height of course. In fact, his height is described somewhat differently overtime. when he first shows up is is "well above average height". later he is "tall, almost as tall as Rand". Given that Rand is 6'6'', describing someone who is near that height in terms of being above average is pretty strange. however, as mentioned in my other thread, Taim's original height wa sdescribed as "slightly above average" which turned out to be a writer's error. it was later changed to "well above average". maybe they just didn't want to change the wording too much.

 

But I certainly disagree that it's doesn't matter if the height difference in an illusion is two inches or ten. It's explicitly mentioned that it's much easier and safer to make illusion closer to what the original person looks like.

[dholm]

You do not understand.

 

Ishamael never channeled the One Power any longer. While he could do so to parade around as Taim, there is very little reason to do so. Especially since you claim he already had the "real" Taim -- just slap a 13x13 turn on him, and send him off instead. That's if you assume Taim was not already a Friend of the Dark.

 

If Moridin replaced Taim before Rand met him, there is no benefit to making himself shorter in order to look more like Taim -- Rand doesn't know what Taim looks like. Who would tell him, "Hey, that guy is too tall!"? Bashere? Bashere doesn't know him well enough to recognize him without his beard. He doubts it is Taim.

 

In fact, since making yourself appear shorter through Illusion makes the disguise worse, there is no tangible benefit to appearing exactly like Taim. (Which is a reason it would be a good idea to have him 'shave' if he was an imposter -- a beard isn't something you can replicate easily with Illusion, as any touch will tell it isn't there.)

 

An Illusion making you two inches shorter means that if you place your hand on their shoulder, your hand would rest seemingly in the air, telling you immediately that it's an Illusion. If you make yourself shorter, you make sure you aren't touched -- yet Taim lets Rand put the Dragon and Sword pins on his collar. If that collar was actually two inches higher than Rand sees it as, he'd figure it out immediately.

 

Where do you get the idea that Danelle is young -- or that she does not look like Mesaana, for that matter? Danelle must look like Mesaana for her disguise to work. Remember the subtlety.

[herid]

You do not understand.

 

Ishamael never channeled the One Power any longer. While he could do so to parade around as Taim, there is very little reason to do so.

I disagree completely. impersonating Taim would be a great gig for him or some other Forsaken. and as i said, it even agrees with his MO as he did the same with Hawkwing.

Especially since you claim he already had the "real" Taim -- just slap a 13x13 turn on him, and send him off instead. That's if you assume Taim was not already a Friend of the Dark.

Yes, he could have sent a male channeler darkfriend, if he had one available. That's what most people think he did. But it's hardly a proof that Taim is not Moridin. It's certainly a possibility but no more than that. Moridin may have wanted to do it himself as Taim's position is very important. The Forsaken are not known to be particularly trusting of their subordinates.

 

If Moridin replaced Taim before Rand met him, there is no benefit to making himself shorter in order to look more like Taim -- Rand doesn't know what Taim looks like. Who would tell him, "Hey, that guy is too tall!"? Bashere? Bashere doesn't know him well enough to recognize him without his beard. He doubts it is Taim.

But Bashere has seen him or at the very least knows his description. If there is a big height difference he would sure notice.

 

In fact, since making yourself appear shorter through Illusion makes the disguise worse, there is no tangible benefit to appearing exactly like Taim. (Which is a reason it would be a good idea to have him 'shave' if he was an imposter -- a beard isn't something you can replicate easily with Illusion, as any touch will tell it isn't there.)

 

An Illusion making you two inches shorter means that if you place your hand on their shoulder, your hand would rest seemingly in the air, telling you immediately that it's an Illusion. If you make yourself shorter, you make sure you aren't touched -- yet Taim lets Rand put the Dragon and Sword pins on his collar. If that collar was actually two inches higher than Rand sees it as, he'd figure it out immediately.

an illusion can cover solid objects that can be touched if it's well made. I mentioned this above. There is a quote of Sammael and the fact the Kielle was willing to touch Mat on the cheek with her big fingers. But even so it's best to keep the illusion as close to the original as you can.

 

Where do you get the idea that Danelle is young -- or that she does not look like Mesaana, for that matter? Danelle must look like Mesaana for her disguise to work. Remember the subtlety.

 

Danelle, on the other hand, the young Brown sister who was supposed to be watching Master Jovarin, the mason, was most likely letting herself be distracted by the books the fellow kept finding for her.

-TSR, Ch 47

I'm too lazy to look up more quotes as this is irrelevant to the subject.

[Mandro]

 

 

I don't think there is any question that Logain is more powerful than Taim. Logain is poorly trained "He would have refused me the dragon, if he dared." which I think says that Logain wasn't a false dragon of prominance, but because Logain is that powerful.

 

(sorry rambling.)

why would you think Logain is stronger than Taim?! when Rand measures Taim up Taim is described to be nearly as strong as Rand. and he might be holding something back too. Rand feels no strain.

 

“How strong are you?” Rand broke in. “Seize saidin. Do it. As much as you can hold.”

 

For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow such as women could see around one another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react?

-LoC, Ch 3

 

and he should feel strain if Taim were full to the brink. Logain can tell when Rand is full.

 

"A Deathgate," Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. "Why are you still holding the Power?'- he asked suddenly. "And so much.

 

If you're trying to show me that you're stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgates were compared to mine. And I'd say you're holding every drop of saidin that you can safely."

-KoD, Ch 19

 

also, Rand should be near his full strength in LoC. he was pushed strongly in his development by using the Eye of the World , Callandor and Choedan Kal (when he fought Asmodean). that would accelerate the speed with which he achieved his full strength greatly.

 

Rand could barely best Asmodean at the end of TSR, and in TFoH he mentiones how much stronger he is with asmodeans teaching and that he hadn't reached his full potention. In the next book he meets Taim. So you are saying that Rand (who also afforded no effort to best taim) reached his maximum strength the day after asmodean wanted some crackers from the cupboard? THAT is what I'm saying. Taim is powerful, but not as powerful as a half trained, half value Dragon. Right now, Rand can eat taims lunch while impregnating taims wife.

 

That is why taim isn't a chosen, unless he's asmodean returned and enslaved to moridin.

 

As for Logain being more powerful, Logain has two things that would give him the confidence he has in his opposition to Taim. One is that Logain, a minor lord is that arrogant (possible) or that logain is CLEARLY that much more powerful. I'm going for the That much more powerful part.

 

And It's kinda apparent, though not absolute, that Logain will be effing up some azzes and one of those azzes will be Taim. Kinda not likely (based on the layout so far) meaning that Logain is more powerful.

[dholm]

If Moridin replaced Taim before Rand met him, there is no benefit to making himself shorter in order to look more like Taim -- Rand doesn't know what Taim looks like. Who would tell him, "Hey, that guy is too tall!"? Bashere? Bashere doesn't know him well enough to recognize him without his beard. He doubts it is Taim.

But Bashere has seen him or at the very least knows his description. If there is a big height difference he would sure notice.

A description is not accurate enough. You do not generally describe someone to within an inch of their actual height. Unless Bashere, or the person giving the description, is extremely adept at judging people's heights, I do not see a real problem, there.

 

Far better to avoid the risk of Rand either noticing he's suddenly taller or touching him somewhere that breaks the Illusion. Far better to make you your actual height.

 

In fact, since making yourself appear shorter through Illusion makes the disguise worse, there is no tangible benefit to appearing exactly like Taim. (Which is a reason it would be a good idea to have him 'shave' if he was an imposter -- a beard isn't something you can replicate easily with Illusion, as any touch will tell it isn't there.)

 

An Illusion making you two inches shorter means that if you place your hand on their shoulder, your hand would rest seemingly in the air, telling you immediately that it's an Illusion. If you make yourself shorter, you make sure you aren't touched -- yet Taim lets Rand put the Dragon and Sword pins on his collar. If that collar was actually two inches higher than Rand sees it as, he'd figure it out immediately.

an illusion can cover solid objects that can be touched if it's well made. I mentioned this above. There is a quote of Sammael and the fact the Kielle was willing to touch Mat on the cheek with her big fingers. But even so it's best to keep the illusion as close to the original as you can.

 

You are still missing the point.

 

If Rand sees Taim, and reaches out to touch Taim on the shoulder, he'd either hit Moridin two inches below the shoulder or his hand would float two inches above Taim's. That's not something you can disguise by Illusion. What is he supposed to do, slouch? That'd get noticed even quicker.

 

You cannot disguise more than an inch's difference in height when you risk people touching you, and even an inch is probably too much. It. Does. Not. Work.

 

Illusion is used in three situations: when you are a very close match to whomever you are impersonating, when you just want to hide yourself, or when you are sure you will not be touched in a way that risks breaking the Illusion. Lanfear's Illusion of Keille worked because people avoided touching her. If anyone noticed her fingers were too slender, they probably dismissed it without considering it at all. (It also helps that even if you recognize the Illusion as Illusion, you do not see through it. You would still see the Illusion.)

 

Had Taim made sure not to let Rand touch her, you'd have a case. But Taim showed no particular aversion to him pinning the Dragon and the Sword on his collar (other than the fact that they showed him to be subservient to Rand, of course).

[herid]

If Moridin replaced Taim before Rand met him, there is no benefit to making himself shorter in order to look more like Taim -- Rand doesn't know what Taim looks like. Who would tell him, "Hey, that guy is too tall!"? Bashere? Bashere doesn't know him well enough to recognize him without his beard. He doubts it is Taim.

But Bashere has seen him or at the very least knows his description. If there is a big height difference he would sure notice.

A description is not accurate enough. You do not generally describe someone to within an inch of their actual height. Unless Bashere, or the person giving the description, is extremely adept at judging people's heights, I do not see a real problem, there.

 

Far better to avoid the risk of Rand either noticing he's suddenly taller or touching him somewhere that breaks the Illusion. Far better to make you your actual height.

 

In fact, since making yourself appear shorter through Illusion makes the disguise worse, there is no tangible benefit to appearing exactly like Taim. (Which is a reason it would be a good idea to have him 'shave' if he was an imposter -- a beard isn't something you can replicate easily with Illusion, as any touch will tell it isn't there.)

 

An Illusion making you two inches shorter means that if you place your hand on their shoulder, your hand would rest seemingly in the air, telling you immediately that it's an Illusion. If you make yourself shorter, you make sure you aren't touched -- yet Taim lets Rand put the Dragon and Sword pins on his collar. If that collar was actually two inches higher than Rand sees it as, he'd figure it out immediately.

an illusion can cover solid objects that can be touched if it's well made. I mentioned this above. There is a quote of Sammael and the fact the Kielle was willing to touch Mat on the cheek with her big fingers. But even so it's best to keep the illusion as close to the original as you can.

 

You are still missing the point.

 

 

If Rand sees Taim, and reaches out to touch Taim on the shoulder, he'd either hit Moridin two inches below the shoulder or his hand would float two inches above Taim's. That's not something you can disguise by Illusion. What is he supposed to do, slouch? That'd get noticed even quicker.

 

You cannot disguise more than an inch's difference in height when you risk people touching you, and even an inch is probably too much. It. Does. Not. Work.

 

 

you underestimate what a good power created disguise can do. it can imitate solid object so that even a touch would not tell the difference. that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's exactly what Sammael said in the quote I gave above. and that's how Kielle's disguise works. she is nothing like Lanfear in physical appearance. yet she is perfectly willing to get very close to others, to touch or be touched by them. her disguise is clearly goo enough to pass such a test. if it were not she'd be exposed very quickly if not by Rand then by Isendre or Kadere with whom she shares a wagon over a period of many days.

[dholm]

Keille's disguise adds mass. This could possibly be imitated through clever use of Air or Water, though I honestly, seriously doubt it.

 

 

Please tell how Moridin would make himself SHORTER.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

moridin is not taim because moridin is super cool, super duper smart and thoughtful, and super pretty iirc. i like to r it that way anyway. and taim is taim.

[herid]

Keille's disguise adds mass. This could possibly be imitated through clever use of Air or Water, though I honestly, seriously doubt it.

 

 

Please tell how Moridin would make himself SHORTER.

This is not a physics class. It's magic. Keille is short, Lanfear is quite tall. If Lanfear could impersonate Keille by making herself shorter then Moridin could turn himself into Taim if he had to.

[mb]

For Taim to be any of the 13, he would need to know at least the weave for Illusion. The books up through Gathering Storm do not tell whether or not he does.

[dholm]

Keille's disguise adds mass. This could possibly be imitated through clever use of Air or Water, though I honestly, seriously doubt it.

 

 

Please tell how Moridin would make himself SHORTER.

This is not a physics class. It's magic. Keille is short, Lanfear is quite tall. If Lanfear could impersonate Keille by making herself shorter then Moridin could turn himself into Taim if he had to.

 

What a brilliant argument...

 

Yes, it is "magic", but it has laws, just as physics. In fact, it is quite heavily based on physics. There has never been an instance of physical transformation using the One Power. Even the Trollocs and the other Shadowspawn were results of genetic manipulation, not transformation.

 

Like I said... Keille's disguise worked because no one happened to touch Lanfear (in a way that would prove the Illusion to be fake) when she wore it. That's all there is to it. It was not a good disguise by any means.

[herid]

Keille's disguise adds mass. This could possibly be imitated through clever use of Air or Water, though I honestly, seriously doubt it.

 

 

Please tell how Moridin would make himself SHORTER.

This is not a physics class. It's magic. Keille is short, Lanfear is quite tall. If Lanfear could impersonate Keille by making herself shorter then Moridin could turn himself into Taim if he had to.

 

What a brilliant argument...

 

Yes, it is "magic", but it has laws, just as physics. In fact, it is quite heavily based on physics. There has never been an instance of physical transformation using the One Power. Even the Trollocs and the other Shadowspawn were results of genetic manipulation, not transformation.

 

Like I said... Keille's disguise worked because no one happened to touch Lanfear (in a way that would prove the Illusion to be fake) when she wore it. That's all there is to it. It was not a good disguise by any means.

Keille does get touched by others and she touches others herself. She pinches Mat's cheek as I mentioned. She shares a small wagon with three other people over a prolonged period of time. It would be impossible for her to do it without getting in close contact with Kadere and Isendre neither of whom knows who she is. You do have a point here that power created disguises really ought to follow physics rules but in Keille's case they don't. so your beef should be with RJ not with me on this one.

 

And Taim is described to be only slightly shorter than Rand who is the same height as Moridin so the touch test would be much easier to satisfy than in the case of Lanfear and Keille.

[dholm]

The "touch" has to be in a way which would prove that the Illusion is not physically there -- and as I mentioned, perhaps Lanfear could add those "rolls of fat" to Keille through some clever Air/Water weave. When Keille touched Mat, she only touched him with her hand.

 

As for what happened inside that wagon, we do not know. Since we do know that Illusions can be proven false through physical contact, the only thing we can conclude is that since neither Isendre nor Kadere mentions her being an Illusion to one another (and we see nothing of the kind in Kadere's points of view), neither of them touched her in such a manner -- or if they did, she used something like Compulsion to cause them to forget it.

 

Rand touched Taim's collar. He would have known if the man was actually taller than he seemed to be.

[herid]

The "touch" has to be in a way which would prove that the Illusion is not physically there -- and as I mentioned, perhaps Lanfear could add those "rolls of fat" to Keille through some clever Air/Water weave. When Keille touched Mat, she only touched him with her hand.

 

As for what happened inside that wagon, we do not know. Since we do know that Illusions can be proven false through physical contact, the only thing we can conclude is that since neither Isendre nor Kadere mentions her being an Illusion to one another (and we see nothing of the kind in Kadere's points of view), neither of them touched her in such a manner -- or if they did, she used something like Compulsion to cause them to forget it.

 

Rand touched Taim's collar. He would have known if the man was actually taller than he seemed to be.

as i said, Sammael specifically mentioned that a good OP disguise can pass a touch test. and we have no idea what a TP disguise can do. it might be able to do what an OP one can not. Also, Keille easily mingles not just with Isendre and Kadere but with the Aiel. She trades with them so a lot of touching would have to be involved and yet nobody suspects anything despite a large height difference between Lanfear and Keille. Clearly her disguise is pretty good. In view of this I don't see any problems with Moridin disguising himself as a slightly shorter man and Rand pinning a dragon on his collar.

[Sharaman]

If Taim is disguised, which I doubt, he has absolutely no problem with touch. Not only does Rand touch him, several Saldeans do with swords on his back and he touches Flynn as well, leaning to put his hand on Flynn's shoulder.

Since he's not the same apparent physical size and shape as Moridin, he would have to mess with height/ weight/ shoulder-width, reach, arm-legs ratios.

It's not a MoM, whether done with TP or OP.

[A Rant Lord]

I think the most important argument for Taim being a newly elevated chosen is not his amount of power or whatever, remember what Verin said in ToM: "The quality the DO is looking for mostly in his leaders is SELFISHNESS, that makes them predictable. Taim is very selfish, he is turning the DT to support him and not Rand. With the dark tower under his control even Moridin should fear him. I think Taim is also under the DO protection since we have seen many Ashaman go mad, or seeing things and Taim still shows not 1 sign of madness. I think he might have been Moridins pupil for some time, and maybe in Moridin's eyes he still is. Taim is on a rise of power under the shadow and the DO doesn't care, he favours the one that "Brings him armies" Taim has an army of channelers and IMO he might be favoured most of all forsaken. The DO will simply see how it plays out, either taim beats moridin or moridin beats him, the DO isn't concerned who is nae'blis, as long as he has his army.

[herid]

If Taim is disguised, which I doubt, he has absolutely no problem with touch. Not only does Rand touch him, several Saldeans do with swords on his back and he touches Flynn as well, leaning to put his hand on Flynn's shoulder.

Since he's not the same apparent physical size and shape as Moridin, he would have to mess with height/ weight/ shoulder-width, reach, arm-legs ratios.

It's not a MoM, whether done with TP or OP.

 

I mentioned a quote by Sammael about this in another thread but here it is again

His skin tingled slightly as she channeled, and for an instant her image changed. Her skin became coppery but dull, her hair and eyes dark but flat; she appeared gaunt and frail, a once-beautiful Domani woman slowly losing a battle against illness. He barely stopped his lip from curling. One touch would prove the angular contours of that face were not hers—only the most subtle use of Illusion could pass that test—but Graendal seemed wedded to flamboyance.

 

-LoC, Ch 6

so apparently, it's possible to weave OP illusion that will pass a touch test. If anybody can do it one of the Forsaken should.

 

and again, we have no idea what a TP disguise can do.

 

Also, it just occurred to me that we don't really know that Moridin and Taim have different physical shape and size. They are both described as being powerfully built. The only difference mentioned is a slight difference in height.

 

Taim is described as almost as tall as Rand a few times in the eyes of others. The only reference to Moridin's height is when Rand sees him in SH and thinks that Moridin is the same height as him. But Rand is extremely busy at the time and the encounter is brief. Rand only has moments to seize him up.

The other man pushed himself up with a grimace at Rand’s proffered hand. He was easily as tall as Rand, rare except among the Aiel. “I don’t know what happened,” he snarled. “Run, if you want to live.” He suited his own words immediately, dashing toward a row of open arches.

-aCoS, Ch 41

It's not like they are standing back to back or in front of a mirror and measuring who is taller. It's very hard to judge somebody's height in compared to your own in a few seconds if the difference is only an inch or so. Even big hair can make a wrong impression of height.

 

 

I think the most important argument for Taim being a newly elevated chosen is not his amount of power or whatever, remember what Verin said in ToM: "The quality the DO is looking for mostly in his leaders is SELFISHNESS, that makes them predictable. Taim is very selfish, he is turning the DT to support him and not Rand. With the dark tower under his control even Moridin should fear him. I think Taim is also under the DO protection since we have seen many Ashaman go mad, or seeing things and Taim still shows not 1 sign of madness. I think he might have been Moridins pupil for some time, and maybe in Moridin's eyes he still is. Taim is on a rise of power under the shadow and the DO doesn't care, he favours the one that "Brings him armies" Taim has an army of channelers and IMO he might be favoured most of all forsaken. The DO will simply see how it plays out, either taim beats moridin or moridin beats him, the DO isn't concerned who is nae'blis, as long as he has his army.

this is actually a good argument for Taim=Moridin. Taim is not a new Forsaken because Egwene sees only 13 Towers representing Forsaken in a Dream in ToM. so he might be trying out to become a new Forsaken. he certainly shows a lot of arrogance and lust for power. He calls himself M'hael which means leader, deeply resents being equated with other Asha'man - he even refuses to wear standard Ashaman pins, the doors of the BT are decorated with a sigil that Forsaken use, he has an army pf male channelers loyal directly to him and so on. yet at the same time he seems to be highly trusted by Moridin, who is clearly his direct boss (the floor of the BT is painted in red and black - Moridin's favorite colors), he even gets a Dreamspike from Moridin, and is allowed to get away with all of this. why is that? Why would Moridin be so trusting of him and let him get away with such a show of arrogance and power? This is certainly not in character for Moridin who is supposed to be a pretty selfish man himself as one of the Forsaken. It's shown many times that Forsaken treat their followers like dogs. Even Alviarin who is the head of Black Ajah and is the nearest equivalent to Taim we can find among women is treated like a total dog by the Forsaken. yet Moridin sees nothing wrong with Taim using a Forsaken sigil? That would be akin to an Aes Sedai painting the floor in her room with a seven striped stole. This is not exactly subtle and Moridin is not blind. if the DO will let it all "play out", as you say, Moridin certainly wouldn't.

[dholm]

He thinks that a SUBTLE use of Illusion will pass a touch test. I.e. an Illusion which is almost the same as that which is touched. Hence "subtle".

 

Lowering your height IS NOT SUBTLE.

[herid]

He thinks that a SUBTLE use of Illusion will pass a touch test. I.e. an Illusion which is almost the same as that which is touched. Hence "subtle".

 

that's your interpretation of what he says. It can be read as meaning that it's possible to create illusion which can be touched. The example of Lanfear masquerading as Keilee seems to confirm that. and I as said, who knows what a TP disguise can do.

[Ishna]

Ín the PoD prologue, when Moridin plays his game with the fisher. At that poing it is almost too obvious that he is Ishamael. Yet a lot of people disagreed.

Its the same about this Taim Moridin issue, it is as obvious that he is not Moridin as it was obvious that he was Ishamael then. Yet people refuse to see what is laid before them:)

I dont really dislike or like the idea of Taim being Moridin, but no fact really supports it. Its all just an unnecessary assumption. making things more complicated than they are.

 

None of the evidence for example herid produces would not be at least as well explained with Taim being a DF under the influence of the forsaken. And we dont know that it is Taim in control of the dreamkspike, only that its placed at the BT. It could easily be Demandred who has been granted it through Moridin and is taking charge there, or Moridin himself. Its not said that it is given to Taim. And the sigil doenst need to be a forsaken sigil. If it is isnt it as likely to show someone following a forsaken?

 

Trusting and letting him get away with a show of arrogance of power? Comon, all people who turn to the shadow are powerhungry. I dont see anything that Taim does that Moridin should stop becaouse of that reason. Yes the followers are treated as dogs, but Taim is much stronger than Alviarin, and also more succesful so far. Aboce all sucess is rewarded, and since Taim is from what I can see so far succesful for the shadow he should have reason to ´be a little arrogant and sure of himself.

 

There simply is no convincing arguments for Taim=Moridin that holds at all. Wishing something to be true doesnt make it so. Making "evidence" fit into what you want instead of trying to se what the evidence points at I was I think this is mostly about. The old Taim=Demandred theory had much more substance before it was destroyed.

[Mandro]

moridin is not taim because moridin is super cool, super duper smart and thoughtful, and super pretty iirc. i like to r it that way anyway. and taim is taim.

 

Cindy and Moridin, sitting in a tree.....

[dholm]

He thinks that a SUBTLE use of Illusion will pass a touch test. I.e. an Illusion which is almost the same as that which is touched. Hence "subtle".

 

that's your interpretation of what he says. It can be read as meaning that it's possible to create illusion which can be touched. The example of Lanfear masquerading as Keilee seems to confirm that. and I as said, who knows what a TP disguise can do.

 

...

 

You completely misunderstand what it is he is saying. You cannot create an Illusion which can be touched. That is why it is an Illusion. What you can do is follow that which can be touched with the Illusion, i.e. making it subtle.

 

Look up the meaning of the words if you are still confused.

 

Regardless, even if you were right, it would still not work. An Illusion which can be touched would not make someone smaller. The Illusion is divorced from the actual physical body, and we have seen nothing to indicate that any channeler can change shape.

 

Lanfear masquerading as Keille proves absolutely nothing, as there is no on-scene instance of her being touched in a way which would prove the Illusion false.

 

As for True Power disguises, the differences between the True Power and the One Power are usually small, and while there are certainly possibilities, we know nothing about them. You can keep spouting it over and over, but unless we receive evidence that disguises woven through the True Power can be touched, you don't have anything to support it with. It is pure guesswork.

 

I am through with this argument - you are not listening to logic, and you keep repeating yourself over and over. There is nothing to be gained from continuing.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Why can't the Moridin "body" be the disguise and the Taim "body" be the actual body.

 

What I mean is Taim was Taim in the first three books and we really never met him. The first time we run into Taim "on-screen" is in aCoS. Rand had killed Ishy with Callendor at the end of tDR and the DO gave Ishy a new body called Moridin. Why couldn't that body have been Taim's?

 

So the first time we readers meat Taim (other than him falling off his horse) he is already Ishy/Moridin.

 

This would make the "Moridin" appearance a disguise.

 

I'm not saying I believe this, but I do see it as possible!

[MasterAblar]

Why can't the Moridin "body" be the disguise and the Taim "body" be the actual body.

 

What I mean is Taim was Taim in the first three books and we really never met him. The first time we run into Taim "on-screen" is in aCoS. Rand had killed Ishy with Callendor at the end of tDR and the DO gave Ishy a new body called Moridin. Why couldn't that body have been Taim's?

 

So the first time we readers meat Taim (other than him falling off his horse) he is already Ishy/Moridin.

 

This would make the "Moridin" appearance a disguise.

 

I'm not saying I believe this, but I do see it as possible!

 

We see Taim for the first time in LoC not aCoS.

 

If Taim is his real body than why bother with the illusion of his Moridin body? What would be the point?