Is Taim a Chosen?

[ltmundida]

Mazrim Taim seems powerful enough to be a Chosen. Most of the discussion seems to be about him being/controlled by one of the remaining male forsaken, but why can't he be one? We know that the Forsaken at the end of the WOP were 13 but when they meet to discuss Rand's plan to cleanse saidin one of them recalls that the DO had killed dozens of Chosen. If there had been more Chosen before, why can't more be appointed now?

[murf2011]

But would Taim not have been included or mentioned by others if he was? because even though they disagree with each other, they all have the same goal, just different ways to go about it... it is possible, but I'm just not too sure about it happening... He's just a Darkfriend in a high place, IMO.

[Finnssss22]

We don't know how many "Chosen" there actually was but it was definitely more than just 13, the 13 we know were apparently the 13 most powerful/highest ranking and were meeting when LTT sealed the bore.

 

Taim being added to the ranks of the Chosen is possible but I don't believe so.

I think he is Ishy/Moridin's pupil. His knowledge of the AoL and how long he has channeled leads me to this.

 

There are other theories out there about Taim actually being from the AoL to explain his knowledge but Moridin pretty much stifles this theory when he is talking about the game sha'rah in tPoD prologue and that only 9 currently alive even remember the game. There were 9 Forsaken alive at the time or more importantly, 9 that Moridin had direct knowledge of and accounted for by Moridin.

[ltmundida]

I mean he could be a newly appointed Chosen. He is a powerful male channeler who has done particularly well and is command of a lot of dreadlords. Why can't he emerge as a leader of the Shadow's forces at the LB.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim is not Chosen. Egwenes Dream in Towers depicts the Chosen from book 1. She sees 13 midnight towers, some fall, some rise again and one rises impossibly high and there are six left at the end of it. Moridin, Demandred, Mesaana, Graendal, Cyndane, Moghedien. Moridin is the impossibly tall one, Mesaana was alive at the time. No fourteenth tower means Taim doesnt have his own place among them. If hes Chosen, hes one of the remaining six in disguise.

 

Correction, one of the remaining 5

[DocBean]

We do know that Moridin had set up some extra chairs in one of the Darkfriend meetings.

 

He had known that Asmo was dead, and a few of the other Forsaken.

He either set up some extra chairs to make the others think he didn't know what was going on, or he set them up for some other high ranking darkfriends.

I think that's a clue that there are other Chosen.

[OptimusPrime]

The chairs were there to remind them of those that had fallen

[DocBean]

The chairs were there to remind them of those that had fallen

 

Then why weren't there 13 chairs?

If I remember correctly there were only 11.

[OptimusPrime]

I always assumed it was because only 2 at the time were dead. Werent Bel'al and Rahvin the only permenently dead ones at the time?

[ltmundida]

Egwene's dream reflected the remaining Forsaken. Taim could be a new Chosen without joining the ranks of the Forsaken. I think the term Forsaken refers only to the 13 who were imprisoned.

[KrisAnton]

The name "Forsaken" was given to the 13 most powerful Aes Sedai wh had given their souls to the Shadow who were trapped at Shayol Ghul. There were other "Forsaken", I would assume they were hunted down and exterminated after the strike at Shayol Ghul. no mention of Taim or his deeds exist in book 1, he and his actions appear in the Great Hunt when Siuan talks about capturing Taim and dealing with him. Taim was a false Dragon because Rand had not yet declared himself to be the Dragon. The Pattern was going to continue spitting out false Dragons until the true Dragon Reborn revealed himself.

 

Whatever Taim may or may not be is inconsequential. Call him a Chosen or a Dreadlord or Darkfriend or Ashaman, it doesn't matter what you call the guy. He is clearly a tool of the Shadow regardless of title. I do not think Taim is a Chosen One,I think someone has given him some freedom to operate, but the Leadership of the Shadow likes competition between it's puppets. Whoever has given him that freedom isn't worried about him stabbing him or her in the back, which can only indicate Moridin or the Dark One himself. My money is on a cooperation between Moridin and Taim; Moridin seems to let people do as they will as long as they perform up to standards. He isn't a micromanager like Sammael was. Until Taim effs up majorly, we will continue to see Taim operate with an abundance of freedom. by this logic, we can also conclude that everything Taim has done has been the will of the Shadow, including Dumais Wells and the Cleansing, for whatever reason.

 

Taim is an enigma and I ike it like that. I'm still hoping agains those that he turns out to be a good guy, however unlikely that is.

[OptimusPrime]

I just think Taims been on the scene for that long now that there would be at least some hints of where he stands. If he was a new Chosen there would be something to at least hint at it.

 

Egwenes Dream depicts the Chosen. The Chosen and Forsaken are the same thing. Im sure RJ said there were other Chosen, other Forsaken in an interview, but those 13 were the only ones that became famous in legend.

 

But no, I think Egwenes Dream definitely outrules Taim from being a 14th Chosen, Forsaken, whatever you want to call them. Either he isnt Chosen, or hes one of the existing ones, and that means either Aran'gar-who died before Taim appeared in the book, or Moridin.

 

So in my oppinion, if Taim is Chosen, he has to be Moridin in disguise.

[capuga]

But no, I think Egwenes Dream definitely outrules Taim from being a 14th Chosen, Forsaken, whatever you want to call them. Either he isnt Chosen, or hes one of the existing ones, and that means either Aran'gar-who died before Taim appeared in the book, or Moridin.

 

Aran'gar (Halima/Balthamel) didn't die until Rand balefired that palace in Arad Doman in tGS. Osan'gar (Aginor/Dashiva) was killed during the Cleansing in WH which was well after Taim showed up. So he can't be either of them recycled.

 

I used to think there was a good chance that Taim was a new (recently elevated) Chosen. I still think its a possibility, but it seems less likely now due to Egwene's dream.

[Darkspot]

Chosen - title they give themselves, and are called by the shadow. Forsaken - title used by the light for the same group.

[herid]

Taim is not a new Forsaken. First and foremost, as already mentioned, we have a Dream of Egwene in TOM where she sees only 13 towers which represent Forsaken. That's enough for me.

Chosen is a very special title. There is no such thing as an almost Chosen. Chosen receive a special mark from the DO which places them above all other servants of the shadow and ensures obedience of shadowspawn to them.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

 

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

 

 

 

But there are even more clues than that. Taim likes red and black which are Moridin's favourite colors. The floor of the Black Tower is decorated in red and black.

The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for tapestries showing battles and red-and-black floor tiles, except that there were no servants in evidence. ...

 

The Tairen did not announce them, but rather simply joined the mass of Asha'man and left them to make their own way across the room. The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors.

 

-KoD, Ch 38

 

This is a deliberate plot device to indicate either Moridin or his associates. It can not be an accident. And a true Forsaken would never defer to Moridin to such extent even though Moridin is Naeblis. None of the other Forsaken express a slightest inclination to do any such things.

 

 

Taim is either Moridin himself or a pupil of Moridin.

[Finnssss22]

Taim is not a new Forsaken. First and foremost, as already mentioned, we have a Dream of Egwene in TOM where she sees only 13 towers which represent Forsaken. That's enough for me.

Chosen is a very special title. There is no such thing as an almost Chosen. Chosen receive a special mark from the DO which places them above all other servants of the shadow and ensures obedience of shadowspawn to them.

 

 

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

 

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

 

 

 

But there are even more clues than that. Taim likes red and black which are Moridin's favourite colors. The floor of the Black Tower is decorated in red and black.

The palace might have belonged to any noble with a taste for tapestries showing battles and red-and-black floor tiles, except that there were no servants in evidence. ...

 

The Tairen did not announce them, but rather simply joined the mass of Asha'man and left them to make their own way across the room. The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors.

 

-KoD, Ch 38

 

This is a deliberate plot device to indicate either Moridin or his associates. It can not be an accident. And a true Forsaken would never defer to Moridin to such extent even though Moridin is Naeblis. None of the other Forsaken express a slightest inclination to do any such things.

 

 

Taim is either Moridin himself or a pupil of Moridin.

 

Yeah for sure and saying red and black are Moridin's favorite colours is an understatement, the guy is freakin obsessed with them.

How many times now have we been told that Mogy and Cyndane are always in red and black with Grany noting that those colours don't suit them and Mogy herself all but admitting that she HAS to wear them in aCoS.

 

I don't think Taim is Moridin himself, that doesn't feel right. Taim is far too lucid if you know what I mean, their personalities and reactions too different.

 

Being his pupil has been a thought of mine for a long time now and fits what we know the best imo.

Most likely marked like Alviarin as well.

[herid]

 

 

 

Yeah for sure and saying red and black are Moridin's favorite colours is an understatement, the guy is freakin obsessed with them.

How many times now have we been told that Mogy and Cyndane are always in red and black with Grany noting that those colours don't suit them and Mogy herself all but admitting that she HAS to wear them in aCoS.

 

Yes, I didn't give any quotes for that because there are just way too many. Moggy and Cyndane wear red and black, Moridin's servants wear red and black, Moridin's digs in the Blight are decorated in red and black. I'm sure I'm missing some more still.

 

I don't think Taim is Moridin himself, that doesn't feel right. Taim is far too lucid if you know what I mean, their personalities and reactions too different.

 

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

[Finnssss22]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

That's why being Moridin's pupil tops my list.

[OptimusPrime]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

That's why being Moridin's pupil tops my list.

 

See, if you were to say that Moridins act as Taim was a thing he did towards everyone but the other Chosen, it removes the issue with the orders. Would Moridin really trust these Third Ager fools with the big secret of him hiding in plain sight as Taim? We have seen the way they all think of Third Agers. Also the orders dont exactly contradict each other. Id say that slight difference would either boil down to Moridin being prone to fits of rage, which we have already seen, or Moridin telling the Third Age idiots what they need to be told to get the job done. Im in favor of the latter reason myself, I see it as a "predicting the selfish" tactic not at all unlike what we heard Verin say about the Dark Ones methods. Tell the Third Agers two different things; kill Rand, only kill Rand if absolutely necessary to get his possessions. Notice that the easier option comes from the bigger name in the Shadow heirarchy, I definitely see it as Moridin giving one order as Taim to make Rand a target, then giving the reason as Moridin so Kisman and co know whats really important.

 

Picture this though. If everyone is so keen on the idea of Taim being Moridins pupil or right hand man, why then arent you all asking why Taims order is so different to Moridins order as a fault against that? Not a very fitting way to act if hes a bootlicker.

[herid]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

 

yes, I know. This is definityely one of the strongest arguments why Taim is not Moridin but this can be explained away with some effort. Moridin may have wanted Kisman to learn his true face for some reason (say, in case he needed to command him as Moridin). He may have received some new information (like that fact that Rand had the access key with him) and Kisman may have been in some place where Taim was not supposed to be. It could be that the last of three orders was given in Far Madding (that's where Kisman is at the moment he recalls the orders) where Moridin's power disguise could not work because of the Guardian ter'angreal. There are lots of other things to consider too.

[OptimusPrime]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

 

yes, I know. This is definityely one of the strongest arguments why Taim is not Moridin but this can be explained away with some effort. Moridin may have wanted Kisman to learn his true face for some reason (say, in case he needed to command him as Moridin). He may have received some new information (like that fact that Rand had the access key with him) and Kisman may have been in some place where Taim was not supposed to be. It could be that the last of three orders was given in Far Madding (that's where Kisman is at the moment he recalls the orders) where Moridin's power disguise could not work because of the Guardian ter'angreal. There are lots of other things to consider too.

 

I think Moridins disguise as Taim is a True Power disguise, which I think would still work even in the Guardians reaches. I think Rand hints at this when he told the Aes Sedai that the Guardian only stops the One Power. Another thing I think foreshadows the True Power working in the Guardian is the fact that Rand was able to channel the True Power through an a'dam. So while Im all for Maxridin I dont think the Guardian can really count as a hindrance for Moridins disguise, he could still appear as Taim there if he wished I think.

[capuga]

Picture this though. If everyone is so keen on the idea of Taim being Moridins pupil or right hand man, why then arent you all asking why Taims order is so different to Moridins order as a fault against that? Not a very fitting way to act if hes a bootlicker.

 

Being a pupil and learning from Ishy/Moridin does not make Taim a bootlicker. It doesn't even make him subserviant to Moridin (at least no more than the other Chosen are to the Nae'blis). Even if Taim is not a Chosen (which he likely isn't) he still views himself at or near that level. He will do what he's told like the other Forsaken do, but that doesn't make him a bootlicker.

 

He learned from Ishy and then was given the task of ruling the BT. As a (relatively) trusted underling, he is allowed to run things as he sees fit and he gives his own orders as he thinks is best. He could even have tried to kill Rand against Moridin's direct orders if he thought he could get away with it. Doesn't mean that he may not have learned under Moridin.

[herid]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

 

yes, I know. This is definityely one of the strongest arguments why Taim is not Moridin but this can be explained away with some effort. Moridin may have wanted Kisman to learn his true face for some reason (say, in case he needed to command him as Moridin). He may have received some new information (like that fact that Rand had the access key with him) and Kisman may have been in some place where Taim was not supposed to be. It could be that the last of three orders was given in Far Madding (that's where Kisman is at the moment he recalls the orders) where Moridin's power disguise could not work because of the Guardian ter'angreal. There are lots of other things to consider too.

 

I think Moridins disguise as Taim is a True Power disguise, which I think would still work even in the Guardians reaches. I think Rand hints at this when he told the Aes Sedai that the Guardian only stops the One Power. Another thing I think foreshadows the True Power working in the Guardian is the fact that Rand was able to channel the True Power through an a'dam. So while Im all for Maxridin I dont think the Guardian can really count as a hindrance for Moridins disguise, he could still appear as Taim there if he wished I think.

That's a good point about the disguise being TP. But there is something that really bothers me about Rand's statement that the Guardian will not shield against TP. How can he possibly know that? The Guardian was supposedly made during the breaking (WH,To Lose the Sun) so after LT's time. So how would Rand know what it can do? and who made him an expert on TP anyway? he only used it once.

[OptimusPrime]

well, this is a different issue. there is a hot debate on that one but whatever the answer is there (I'm not yet convinced either way myself), we know for sure that Taim is either Moridin himself or he is Moridin's man. But he is not a new Forsaken.

 

Fair enough and agreed, however there is the little thing of Kisman receiving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin separately which at least suggests strongly that they are three separate people.

 

 

yes, I know. This is definityely one of the strongest arguments why Taim is not Moridin but this can be explained away with some effort. Moridin may have wanted Kisman to learn his true face for some reason (say, in case he needed to command him as Moridin). He may have received some new information (like that fact that Rand had the access key with him) and Kisman may have been in some place where Taim was not supposed to be. It could be that the last of three orders was given in Far Madding (that's where Kisman is at the moment he recalls the orders) where Moridin's power disguise could not work because of the Guardian ter'angreal. There are lots of other things to consider too.

 

I think Moridins disguise as Taim is a True Power disguise, which I think would still work even in the Guardians reaches. I think Rand hints at this when he told the Aes Sedai that the Guardian only stops the One Power. Another thing I think foreshadows the True Power working in the Guardian is the fact that Rand was able to channel the True Power through an a'dam. So while Im all for Maxridin I dont think the Guardian can really count as a hindrance for Moridins disguise, he could still appear as Taim there if he wished I think.

That's a good point about the disguise being TP. But there is something that really bothers me about Rand's statement that the Guardian will not shield against TP. How can he possibly know that? The Guardian was supposedly made during the breaking (WH,To Lose the Sun) so after LT's time. So how would Rand know what it can do? and who made him an expert on TP anyway? he only used it once.

 

Rand has thought he knows everything for a very long time. He makes too many assupmtions, I still think he is prone to it evenas Rand Sedai, if not quite as bad. I think his comment about the Guardian is based on his experience in TGS alone, even though its an assumption on his part I do think he was right this time. It'll be the kind of assumption that turns out to be correct, which justifies him making further assumptions that might lead on to other mistakes.

[Muad Cheade]

It is possible that due to the artificial nature of the Guardian that it is somewhat imperfect.

 

In regards to the original topic, no. Taim is not a "new Chosen." We see that in Egwene's dream when she sees only 13 towers.