Egwene Compelled by Aran'gar?

[Niniel]

When I read about Halima I always waited for something more to happen to Egwene. It would be really lame if the dark side used a forsaken just to spy and give Egwene a headache once in a while. They had a lot of eyes and ears in the camp - Delana and Sheriam just to mention a few. The reson that Aran´gar was put in the rebell camp must have been because she could use saidin and in that way never be discovered when channeling. So what I´m trying to say is that either Aran´gar failed in her mission (whatever it was) or that we are going to see the effect of her doings in AMOL. The forsaken has proven to be a disappointment many times by now so I guess she just failed...

[herid]

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

I read it as saying that she saw the process not just the end result. and how would she know that it was both sick and complex? she could see nothing about the weaves. at the very least something would have been said about how she is able to see it. This is a clear mistake. The arguments to the contrary are just excuses.

 

I actually read the bolded part as narrator's description of events.

no, the whole scene has Graendal POV, not a narrator POV.

[CoonDawg]

I didn't think much of this theory, but now that I've slept on it, I see it as highly possible.

 

Most people think the thing Rand is going to do that Egwene "isn't going to like" is challenge her in front of the world. What if he's going to announce to the world that she's been under compulsion all this time? It's kinda low, which is why Rand feels guilty about it, but it would effectively end the blind allegiance of the other nations and break the image of invulnerability that the White Tower has. Perhaps he'll drop some bombs about the Black Ajah, as well.

 

If he did this, he would totally eliminate the White Tower as an obstacle to his authority. Old Rand would have just killed them all, but new Rand is just as realistic, while far more cunning.

[PhoenixUK]

When I read about Halima I always waited for something more to happen to Egwene. It would be really lame if the dark side used a forsaken just to spy and give Egwene a headache once in a while. They had a lot of eyes and ears in the camp - Delana and Sheriam just to mention a few. The reson that Aran´gar was put in the rebell camp must have been because she could use saidin and in that way never be discovered when channeling. So what I´m trying to say is that either Aran´gar failed in her mission (whatever it was) or that we are going to see the effect of her doings in AMOL. The forsaken has proven to be a disappointment many times by now so I guess she just failed...

 

Yes, what exactly DID Aran'gar aka Halima aka Balthamel accomplish? (S)he was a spy in the rebel Aes Sedai camp so kept the Forsaken up to speed. Inducing headaches in Egwene seems to have blocked some of her Dreaming. She killed Anaiya and Kairen to stop them finding out about her. That seems to be it, as far as i can tell. Whereas Mesaana via Alviarin caused untold chaos in the White Tower. Similarly, Semirhage has reduced Seandar to a riotous mess, Asmodean and Sammeal spread the Shaido Aiel all over the westlands, and Graendal helped reduce Arad Doman into a mess as well.

[herid]

i used to think the compulsion thing was true, but then I realized, the more skilled you are at with the power, the heavier compulsiono has to be, i think i even remember a quote from RJ or maybe BS saying that the stronger you are in innate poewr ability the better shield you have against compulsion,

Have a quote on this? I can't find anything like this in the interview database.

 

 

which is why instead of just walking into the aes sedai's rooms and compelling them to do something, they turned them using the 13X13 or with a mind trap. as for rand not seeing the compulsion if it was there, it was a lot older then her being compelled at that moment. the only way he could have noticed it is if he delved, or was there when it happened. but as for my original thought on their protection, that is why Morgase was able to escape rahvin. when he wasnt right there she was able to shrug it off a little, enough to get out of there. that she still has lingering effects of his last command is simply because she isnt very powerful, but the fact that she could get out in the first is because she can channel.

 

so maybe egwene is, and maybe she isnt under compulsion, I thought at first that she was, that halima'gar was compelling her, not so sure now, but either way both sides have good arguments, but as for graendel seeing halima's weaves, she didnt, that was authoric voice, not Graendel voice. he doesnt say she saw the weaves wrap around his mind, nor does it say anything like that, it doesnt have her state that she saw them, it simply states what halima did. we see that other times in the books as well even when RJ was writing, and i think that team jordan would have caught a huge mistake like a woman seeing a mans weaves. sorry. :|

team jordan missed plenty of other mistakes (like Mat telling Moiraine that Morgase is dead) so I wouldn't rely on this one. ToM was clearly rushed to publication so this was probably inevitable.

 

as for what exactly Graendal was supposed to have seen. In addition to what I said earlier, it's unclear to me that she should have seen anything even after Aran'gar was finished, at least not directly. There is no free space in a human head so we are not talking about a physical object lying on someone's brain. It must be spirit or something similar. Then she should not have seen anything at all or so it seems to me. at least it's not clear. and in any case, as I said, the subject is very murky to say the least. it should have been explained better. as it is it looks like a really bad mistake to a casual reader which is what most readers are. that makes me think that it really was a mistake or it would have been handled better.

 

Lastly, nothing I've seen suggested so far gives a satisfactory explanation why Halima so stubbornly refused to compel Egwene to tell Halima of her plans when she really really wanted to know them. Moggy did it on Elayne and Nynaeve in a similar situation with no hesitation and Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene in the power.

ok, I found some references about which weaves make up compulsion.

 

Rahvin handled the flows of Spirit he had woven around the pair delicately. There was no need to damage valuable servants.

 

He did not sweat, of course. He did not let the summer’s lingering heat touch him. He was a tall man, large, dark and handsome despite the white streaking his temples. Compulsion had presented no difficulties with this woman.

 

A scowl twisted his face. It did with some. A few—a very few—had a strength of self so firm that their minds searched, even if unaware, for crevices through which to slide away. It was his bad luck that he still had some small need for one such. She could be handled, but she kept trying to find escape without knowing she was trapped. Eventually that one would no longer be needed, of course; he would have to decide whether to send her on her way or be rid of her more permanently. Dangers lay either way. Nothing that could threaten him, of course, but he was a careful man, meticulous. Small dangers had a way of growing if ignored, and he always chose his risks with a measure of prudence. To kill her, or keep her?

 

The cessation of the woman’s speech pulled him from his reverie. “When you leave here,” he told her, “you will remember nothing of this visit. You will remember only taking your usual morning walk.” She nodded, eager to please him, and he tied off the strands of Spirit lightly, so they would evaporate from her mind shortly after she reached the street.

So Rahvin seems to be using pure Spirit. I also found a couple of reference to weaves for saidar compulsion. When Moggy tries to compel Nynaeve in SR

She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and Air. Nynaeve had no idea what it meant to do; frantically she tried to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the magnificent woman who would deign to allow her...

-SR, CH 54

 

and another one when Verin does her version of compulsion. this is likely different from how the Forsaken do it as Verin cooked it up herself.

 

The flows she began weaving bore no resemblance to Healing. Spirit predominated by far, but there was Wind and Water, Fire and Earth, the last of some difficulty for her, and even the skeins of Spirit had to be divided again and again, placed with an intricacy to boggle a weaver of fine carpets.

-tPoD, Prologue

 

so all in all Compulsion is mostly Spirit and it might be pure spirit for the male version which is what Aran'gar used. As I understand it, anything woven with spirit would be invisible to opposite sex channelers. It's likely true for Air too. So Graendal should have either seen nothing at all or very very little even once Aran'gar was done with her weaving. that hardly squares with her seeing Aran'gar placing think and heavy compulsion on Ramshalan.

[Terez]

The ability to resist Compulsion has to do with strength of will more than strength in the Power, though I imagine that it's more difficult to Compel someone who is holding the Source (unless she is a clueless ninny like Elayne in Tanchico). Morgase is as weak as they come, and she managed to resist. Farstrider can't even channel, and he resisted. Kerb resisted, in his own way - not necessarily because he had strength of will, but because that deeply-buried hatred for Graendal was so strong, and Rand encouraged him to let it out.

[herid]

The ability to resist Compulsion has to do with strength of will more than strength in the Power, though I imagine that it's more difficult to Compel someone who is holding the Source (unless she is a clueless ninny like Elayne in Tanchico). Morgase is as weak as they come, and she managed to resist. Farstrider can't even channel, and he resisted. Kerb resisted, in his own way - not necessarily because he had strength of will, but because that deeply-buried hatred for Graendal was so strong, and Rand encouraged him to let it out.

so there is no mention anywhere that the ability to resist Compulsion is stronger in more powerful channelers (even if it's not the only factor)? I couldn't find any quote about it myself.

 

and is the theory then that Aran'gar may have tried to compel Egwene but was not very successful because Egwene is incredibly strong willed? I don't know if I buy that.

[haloun]

i think i saw it on one of the threads that was talking about why male channelers couldnt be compelled with the warder bond, I may also be completely wrong. I am sorry if I am, that was just my reason for discontinuing the belief of the egwene was compelled theory. i was actually one of the first on the band wagon for the theory originally.

[Sharaman]

Nyn detects only the female weaves on Ramshalam though she recognises there is something odd (which may be her sensing the effect of the invisible saidin weaves on the mind). Rand doesn't even try to find it because he knows he wouldn't see saidar and he assumes Graendal is solely responsible.

I doubt Nyn would be able to detect saidin-compulsion directly even if she delved Egwene. She may perhaps, find something "odd" but not necessarily recognise it for the big C. (Assuming Halima actually did Compel Egwene, which we don't have any proof of.)

BTW what about TP compulsion? I assume it would be undetectable except by a TP user and assuming that's what was done to Farstrider, it would be impossible to detect directly.

[herid]

Nyn detects only the female weaves on Ramshalam though she recognises there is something odd (which may be her sensing the effect of the invisible saidin weaves on the mind). Rand doesn't even try to find it because he knows he wouldn't see saidar and he assumes Graendal is solely responsible.

I doubt Nyn would be able to detect saidin-compulsion directly even if she delved Egwene. She may perhaps, find something "odd" but not necessarily recognise it for the big C. (Assuming Halima actually did Compel Egwene, which we don't have any proof of.)

BTW what about TP compulsion? I assume it would be undetectable except by a TP user and assuming that's what was done to Farstrider, it would be impossible to detect directly.

this is what I thought in the beginning but there is one problem with this that you yourself indicated. Nynaeve sees madness on Asha'man and Rand (which in her opinion is similar to compulsion). and that is made with TP only. If she can see that she might be able to see saidin compulsion as well with her delving talent. But I don't think she would be able to see anything woven with only spirit. People can not see shields woven by opposite sex channelers for example. Of course this is TP, not OP so the rules might be different there but we are told that nobody can see TP weaves made by others.

[AvroChris]

You next," she said to Aran'gar once Delana had finished. "Something

convoluted. I want al'Thor and his Aes Sedai to find the touch of a man

on the mind." That would confuse them further.

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex

Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

RE this quote, is it describing what Graendal saw or what Aran'Gar did? Two different things. One implies that Granedal saw Saidin being woven, which is impossible and thus a mistake, if you assume the other then the sentance is purely for the benefit of the reader *shrugs*

[herid]

You next," she said to Aran'gar once Delana had finished. "Something

convoluted. I want al'Thor and his Aes Sedai to find the touch of a man

on the mind." That would confuse them further.

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex

Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

RE this quote, is it describing what Graendal saw or what Aran'Gar did? Two different things. One implies that Granedal saw Saidin being woven, which is impossible and thus a mistake, if you assume the other then the sentance is purely for the benefit of the reader *shrugs*

we've discussed this above. the whole scene is told from Graendal POV. so everything is how she sees it. the only question is whether it means that Gaendal saw the actual weaves (a mistake for sure) or that she saw the end result after Aran'gar was done weaving. That last one is still a mistake IMO as I argue above since Compulsion is mostly or even completely made with Spirit in which case Graendal wouldn't see anything even when Aran'gar was done.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think technically nothing prevented Aran'gar from compelling Egwene, as well as from killing, kidnapping, masquarading as her etc. but only one thing-RJ decided that she would do nothing of this kind

Also Compulsion has been used quite often and the Author probably didn't want to overuse it.

 

For me that only reinforces the feeling that RJ and BS have achieved the contrast between Egwene and her enemies not by elevating Egwene, but by turning all her opponents into ineffective idiots, e.g. Aran'gar, Elaida, Sheriam, Mesaana, Aes Sedai opposition, even Siuan around Egwene sometimes loses 90% of her otherwise formidable IQ. It is quite disappointing both for Egwene fans and critics, IMHO.

[AvroChris]

You next," she said to Aran'gar once Delana had finished. "Something

convoluted. I want al'Thor and his Aes Sedai to find the touch of a man

on the mind." That would confuse them further.

Aran'gar shrugged, but did as asked, laying down a thick and complex

Compulsion on the unfortunate Ramshalan's mind.

 

RE this quote, is it describing what Graendal saw or what Aran'Gar did? Two different things. One implies that Granedal saw Saidin being woven, which is impossible and thus a mistake, if you assume the other then the sentance is purely for the benefit of the reader *shrugs*

we've discussed this above. the whole scene is told from Graendal POV. so everything is how she sees it. the only question is whether it means that Gaendal saw the actual weaves (a mistake for sure) or that she saw the end result after Aran'gar was done weaving. That last one is still a mistake IMO as I argue above since Compulsion is mostly or even completely made with Spirit in which case Graendal wouldn't see anything even when Aran'gar was done.

 

So then it's either a mistake, or a mistake. Granedal couldn't have seen the weaving itself (or the weave once completed, as I understand it, and I don't think that's anything to do with which of the five elements were used), and if it's written for the reader then the author slipped out of POV mode for a line or two.

[herid]

 

 

For me that only reinforces the feeling that RJ and BS have achieved the contrast between Egwene and her enemies not by elevating Egwene, but by turning all her opponents into ineffective idiots, e.g. Aran'gar, Elaida, Sheriam, Mesaana, Aes Sedai opposition, even Siuan around Egwene sometimes loses 90% of her otherwise formidable IQ. It is quite disappointing both for Egwene fans and critics, IMHO.

This I do agree with as far as BS is concerned. I didn't get that feeling when RJ was writing her but it definitely bothered me about Egwene's plotline in tGS. Elaida turning into a complete gibbering lunatic (she retained some rationality in KoD and was more believable as a result), Egwene converting the Black Ajah hunters by raising her eyebrows a couple of times etc.

 

 

 

So then it's either a mistake, or a mistake.

lol, I like that.

[Durinax]

i think i saw it on one of the threads that was talking about why male channelers couldnt be compelled with the warder bond, I may also be completely wrong. I am sorry if I am, that was just my reason for discontinuing the belief of the egwene was compelled theory. i was actually one of the first on the band wagon for the theory originally.

I think that male channellers cannot be compelled easily due to the nature of saidin, they have to constantly fight and remember who they are to not be swept away by it.

 

whereas female channellers are more susceptable due to the nature of saidar, having to surrender to it in order be able to use it. I think the AS having to surrender allows them to surrender easily to compulsion

 

also on a side note: if a person gets compulsed once does it mean it is easier for htem to be compulsed again

[htarcan]

 

also on a side note: if a person gets compulsed once does it mean it is easier for htem to be compulsed again

 

Wheel of time turns, ages come and pass and when what was told about "compulsion"s spelling in the first pages of this thread is long forgotten, someone does it again.

Well, I'm not native English speaker and even in this post I may have many mistakes but at least I try to read the posts :))

 

 

I was almost sure when Egwene got herself prisoned that she was under compulsion. Now, it could be really just being Amyrlin. We know the Forsaken talked among themselves about Egwene's achivements as their plans coming to life one by one. My curiousity is that if she is compelled, there'll be terrible things happening in the Tower during the Last Battle. I'm not sure but I think I remember bad things happened to them in Aviendha's viewings. Maybe everything is planned so well that even Mesaana's death can't disturb the course. I would be happy to see the bad guys weren't that idiot indeed!

[Erunion]

Ever since TGS, I've been worried that the Bad Guys are playing a very, very deep game. They are subtly, and slightly, compelling all the leaders of the light (Tuon, Egwene, the Borderland Monarchs maybe... The list of possibilities goes on). Not big, overt compulsion, but little, subtle things that likely only Moridin and the Dark One understand the purpose of, things that will lead to very bad stuff happening in AMOL.

 

On Graendal seeing the weaves of Saidin, she is likely able to do this because she is channeling the True Power at the time (or at least has access to it). I would posit that one of the abilities that the TP gives you is the ability to see weaves of both Saidin and Saidar, much as the Myrddraal are able to sense both Saidin and Saidar.

[herid]

 

 

On Graendal seeing the weaves of Saidin, she is likely able to do this because she is channeling the True Power at the time (or at least has access to it). I would posit that one of the abilities that the TP gives you is the ability to see weaves of both Saidin and Saidar, much as the Myrddraal are able to sense both Saidin and Saidar.

That would be a completely new ability never mentioned or even hinted at thus far. I very much doubt it would be introduced at such a late point in the game. Also Graendal is not channeling TP at the time. She is not channeling at all. so for your theory to hold mere access to TP would have to allow one to see opposite sex channeling. and that can not be actually. Rand had access to TP for a while in tGS, yet he definitely couldn't see anything when Nynaeve channeled around him when interrogating Kerb - he had to ask her if she channeled.

[Erunion]

Good point on Rand's access to the TP.

[ranjitb]

I can't quite decide which is worse - Egwene getting a free pass on her bitchery using the "Oh I was compulsed" excuse, or the authors entirely failing to acknowledge that she is a bitch.

 

Also, since this is a high fantasy series which deals with concepts that have no real-world counterparts and need made up names, such as oh Saidin and Saidar, can we give the semantics lecture a rest please ? There is no real-world example of magic based compulsion and thus there is no "correct" word for it.

[Morsker]

Also, since this is a high fantasy series which deals with concepts that have no real-world counterparts and need made up names, such as oh Saidin and Saidar, can we give the semantics lecture a rest please ? There is no real-world example of magic based compulsion and thus there is no "correct" word for it.

That's a slander against the genre. Fantasy lets authors do extra things, but it's not a blanket excuse for random sloppiness.

 

Besides which, CoT uses "Compelled" with the capital.

[Phelix]

I can't quite decide which is worse - Egwene getting a free pass on her bitchery using the "Oh I was compulsed" excuse, or the authors entirely failing to acknowledge that she is a bitch.

 

Also, since this is a high fantasy series which deals with concepts that have no real-world counterparts and need made up names, such as oh Saidin and Saidar, can we give the semantics lecture a rest please ? There is no real-world example of magic based compulsion and thus there is no "correct" word for it.

 

You're entirely incorrect, for a variety of reasons... let me enumerate them for you.

 

1. RJ/BS are "translating" the story from the language the characters speak/write/think into modern, American English. To Compel is a verb with known conjugations in the modern American English dialect, whereas "compulsion" is a noun, and nouns cannot be conjugated. Trying to add a past tense conjugation to a noun gives you a rather grating, improper word, ie: "compulsed."
2. Because RJ chose to use a known word with known conjugations, we are not free to make up names... because RJ didn't make up a name. He was the author, not us.
3. As Morsker pointed out, "Compelled" is used in the text... because it's the proper conjugation. To get around saying "Compelled" all the time, RJ/BS frequently say things like "he was under compulsion..."

Here is a nifty definition for you: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compulsion

 

Note that they define "compulsion" as the act of compelling or the state of being compelled. Add some capital Cs and you get the proper nouns RJ/BS use for the series.

 

 

Also, since this is a high fantasy series which deals with concepts that have no real-world counterparts and need made up names, such as oh Saidin and Saidar, can we give the semantics lecture a rest please ? There is no real-world example of magic based compulsion and thus there is no "correct" word for it.

That's a slander against the genre. Fantasy lets authors do extra things, but it's not a blanket excuse for random sloppiness.

 

Besides which, CoT uses "Compelled" with the capital.

 

 

Thank you, Morsker! I'm all for calling out when RJ/BS make an error, but in this one they didn't! They were not sloppy... it's just posters online who are being sloppy with the words.

[FarShainMael]

How can you say that?! I'm never solpyp with my worms!!

[Phelix]

Sloppy worms are dangerous.... *head full of dirty thoughts*