how did Moiraine find out about Sammael and Bel'al?

[herid]

Moiraine must've been positive about Be'lal, from the manner she says it. It's as clear as it gets. Not so clear about Sammael if you look at the wording, but she seems certain there, at least.

 

The Forsaken are loose, and one of them rules in Illian. /../ Unless you want to make a closer acquaintance with Sammael.

 

"Be quiet," Moiraine told her sharply. "One of the Forsaken is in Tear. The High Lord Samin is Be'lal."

 

As for Moiraine eavesdropping, or doing something else, that attracted Sammael's attention in Illian, that's not certain at all. She says this:

 

Any moment Lord Brend may learn that one of his Darkhounds is dead. You can be sure he will know that means a Warder, and he will come looking for the Gaidin's Aes Sedai."

 

That could, of course, be Moiraine hiding the fact that she did something and just dumping the blame on Lan, but it's certainly possible that what she did to find out about Sammael did nothing to alarm him, and that it really was the death of the Darkhound that caused everything to happen.

you do have a point here. but one can argue, perhaps, that Sammael had the place warded and Moiraine tripped some wards without realizing it. In any case this seems the most likely explanation to me. Beside an ad hoc device (which is not out of the question), there are only two reasonable possibilities that have been suggested

1. Moiraine eavesdropped either on Sammael and Bel'al directly or on some of their followers

2. She recognized them by their descriptions.

I don't buy that Moiraine could've identified them from physical appearance.

I don't buy that either yet folks don't seem to be convinced so I'd like to go over some of the old arguments one more time.

1. As far as Moiraine knows some Forsaken may have aged while trapped. She saw what happened to Aginor and Balthamel. The fact that Sammael didn't seemingly age says nothing about the others.

2. We have zero evidence to support the idea that Moiraine knows anything about what the Forsaken look like. There is lots of evidence to the contrary, actually.

• Moiraine knew pretty much nothing about Bel'al (and neither did Loial) as is clear from their discussion about him.
  
• She definitely did not recognize Asmodean right away and he was not hiding his appearance. She may had had reasons to conceal his identity after Rand turned him but definitely not before.
  
• Many Forsaken took no care to conceal their appearance (Sammael, Rhavin, Bel'al, Asmodean, Semirhage). So they are not worried about being recognized which means that there are likely no surviving descriptions of them.
  
• When Semirhage is captured none of the Aes Sedai (including Cadsuane) have any clue of what she is supposed to look like, not even her height (she is very tall).
  
• Same goes for Mesaana in the Tower. Neither Alviarin, no Egwene, no Siuan no anybody else ever mention knowing anything about what real Mesaana should look like even after she is unmasked.
  

 

Lastly, even if some descriptions of the Forsaken did survive making a positive id based on them is highly unlikely. It just might be possible in case of Sammael who has a very distinguishing scar but not in case of Bel'al. Moiraine is very sure of herself. There are no qualifiers in her statements. That's speak of being sure beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

As has been mentioned, any of the Forsaken could have aged in the Bore, as far as she knows. And I doubt either Sammael or Be'lal went around broadcasting their true identities to every darkfriend Moiraine could've interrogated. But even if they did, that would still leave the question of how Moiraine managed to so conventiently find a darkfriend to interrogate, seeing how the darkfriends are generally quite secretive.

[Taura-Tierno]

From there... white haired random dude with no history who rose suddenly to inexplicable influence, and, lets not forget, betrays himself with a penchant for not warding his dreams, and thus affecting the dreams around him. No, identifying the Forsaken is not diffcult in that sense.

 

The problem is that any of the Forsaken could've been white-haired and old, from being locked up in the Bore.

 

Moiraine might have had reason to believe that, if Aginor had not specifically told Moiraine that he and Balathamel were exceptions.

 

"The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more."

 

That's from page 748 of the US paperback of Eye of the World.

 

That along with her identification of Sammael in Illian, assuming Sammael's distinctive physical traits played a part in said identification, should give her plenty of reason to believe the majority of the Forsaken have not visibly aged.

 

Moiraine simply cannot know how the Bore have effected the other Forsaken. Aginor did not say the others were unaffacted, merely that he and Balthamel (who was there with him) had been. And they were extremely aged, beyond just looking old. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that someone trapped further in might have been touched by time just a little, and thus aged, but not the point of looking like a corpse.

 

Another thing about Moiraine's certainty is that most of the time through the first books, whenever she did not know something for sure, she either talked around the issue or simply said that there are things she does not know, and so on. That she speaks so plainly of Sammael and Be'lal seems like she knows it, beyond a doubt, otherwise she would not have said it so certainly. And while I agree that she might have guessed which Forsaken was where, she shouldn't have been able to know, just from their appearance. Guess, but not be positively certain.

 

So I'd rather go with Moiraine finding out somehow. Perhaps by eavesdropping, but she'd have to have one heck of a luck to not only manage to listen in the very moment someone speaks the Forsaken's name once, but twice, on what seems to be the first try. Darkfriends don't call the Forsaken by name, they go all "Great master/mistress". Which, in turn, makes me wonder if she's got any kind of shady contacts, or knows a whole lot more about darkfriends than we've seen.

[Master of Germs]

Well, I have just finished my reread of tDR and this was one of the top 3 questions I have from this book.

My opinion is that Moiraine found some descriptions for the Forsaken(maybe in Vendene's & Adeleas' house). Later on, in tDR Perrin tells her some of his dreams. There was a dream in which there were 3 male forsaken together. These should be Rahvin, Be-lal and Ishamael. (LAnfear is another story). So Perrin told her and she figured out who those 3 released Forsaken really are. After that, interrogating in Tear showed a lot of people dreaming High Lord Samon matching the description from Perrin's wolf dream. She already is sure that the wolf dream sees or predicts true things, so she is sure to make her statement.

Perrin hasn't seen Sammael in the dream and she maybe relies on peoples' tellings of dreams and, maybe, a short glimpse from a distance - that's why she does not state outright: "Lord Brend is Sammael"... So we hope that Sammy's scar was really well known among AS.

...Who knows. A lot of Moiraine's actions and decisions in the early books keep some veil of mystery and I want her riddles resolved. Yet, I don't see it happening in the last book.

I love tDR because it's mostly from Perrin's POV and I admit that Moiraine's POV would spoil some of the book's spirit... but at least some short Lan's POVs could be helpful.

To summarize: It really looks like a poor RJ's writing, but I hope it's not. (And why is tDR shorter than all the other books save tPoD... Could the publisher have restricted RJ so he had to cut some writing here?)

[herid]

Well, I have just finished my reread of tDR and this was one of the top 3 questions I have from this book.

My opinion is that Moiraine found some descriptions for the Forsaken(maybe in Vendene's & Adeleas' house). Later on, in tDR Perrin tells her some of his dreams. There was a dream in which there were 3 male forsaken together. These should be Rahvin, Be-lal and Ishamael. (LAnfear is another story). So Perrin told her and she figured out who those 3 released Forsaken really are. After that, interrogating in Tear showed a lot of people dreaming High Lord Samon matching the description from Perrin's wolf dream. She already is sure that the wolf dream sees or predicts true things, so she is sure to make her statement.

 

That's an interesting idea. It's definitely new to this thread. but it doesn't wash, unfortunately. Perrin only told Moiraine of one dream, the one with Ishy and Lanfear but no other Forsaken.

 

“I had a dream,” he told her, and proceeded to tell her of it. All of it. He even pulled up his shirt to show her the small circle on his chest, red, with wavy red lines radiating from it. He had kept things from her before, and he suspected he would again, but this might be too important to hold back. The pin was the smallest part of a pair of scissors, and the easiest made, but without it, the scissors cut no cloth. When he was done, he stood there waiting.

 

She had watched him without expression, except that those dark eyes had examined every word as it came out of his mouth, weighed it, measured it, held it up to the light. Now she sat the same way, only it was he who was examined, weighed, and held up to the light.

 

“Well, is it important?” he demanded finally. “I think it was one of those wolf dreams you told me about—I’m sure it was; it must have been!—but that doesn’t make what I saw real. Only, you said maybe some of the Forsaken are free, and he called her Lanfear, and . . . Is it important, or am I standing here making a fool out of myself?”

-TDR, Ch 36

 

He didn't tell her of any others. He also didn't hear any names when he saw 3 male Forsaken together (that was in TDR, CH4), he didn't even know they were Forsaken. So even if he told her of that one that would not have helped.

[Luckers]

From there... white haired random dude with no history who rose suddenly to inexplicable influence, and, lets not forget, betrays himself with a penchant for not warding his dreams, and thus affecting the dreams around him. No, identifying the Forsaken is not diffcult in that sense.

 

The problem is that any of the Forsaken could've been white-haired and old, from being locked up in the Bore.

 

My point is that Moiraine could easily know of Be'lal's physical characteristics from her years of study, and thus have connected it to this newly arisen High Lord with no history, and a penchant for letting his dreams spill out on others.

[Phariah]

Were not Sammy and Be'lal careless in protecting their dreams thus making it so that the populations they ruled over experienced those dreams? It could be possible Mo' listened to what her agents said and started putting things together. Maybe one of them said something, in whispers, like "I dreamt I was Sammael last night..".

 

 

I'll say it again and I think it really is a simle explanation. Moiraine had a talent for using the power to 'listen in'; if not a talent, then an ability she learned herself. It is possible that she made contact with eyes and ears and learned enough to know that something was wrong with the leader in Illian (and later Tear), then she used the Power to 'listen in' at the royal palace. This last step would explain how she attracted Sammael's attention enough that he would let loose the hounds, so to speak. As for any knowledge she had regarding the various forsaken, I'm sure she has enough to enable the information given to her by the eyes and ears to at least peak her suspicions enough to investigate.

But again, Moiraine is one of the (if not the most) mysterious characters in the series. Also at this stage in the series not much has been revealed to the reader regarding what is and what is not possible with the One Power. It makes sense, therefore, on two fronts to be ambiguous about how Moiraine discovers the identities of the forsaken.

i would say these are most likely. she investigates whats going on around hears the various people talking about the dreams. normally as they were tracking Rand his description was in the forefront. she than in Illian an Tear pieces together who is who. they appear in so many peoples dreams much like Rand would there has to be something about them. and add to that they had just appeared an gained power. very suspicious. she made educated guesses. maybe even used her talent to sneak a listen and over heares them proclaim their real identities to a DF / underling. it is not so far fetched imho. quite reasonable, and easiest explaination.

[Taura-Tierno]

i would say these are most likely. she investigates whats going on around hears the various people talking about the dreams. normally as they were tracking Rand his description was in the forefront. she than in Illian an Tear pieces together who is who. they appear in so many peoples dreams much like Rand would there has to be something about them. and add to that they had just appeared an gained power. very suspicious. she made educated guesses. maybe even used her talent to sneak a listen and over heares them proclaim their real identities to a DF / underling. it is not so far fetched imho. quite reasonable, and easiest explaination.

 

An educated guess, sure. But that's a guess, not enough to say "Samon is Be'lal". She would have to have said "I believe Samon is Be'lal, or if not him, another Forsaken", or something like that.

 

The listening in an hearing the name spoken, I could've bought in one place. But in both cities? Seems she has an awful lot of luck to manage that. So either it's just a device used by RJ, or she had some other shady connections. For instance, I could see Moiraine knowing the identity of some darkfriend, and letting him be just to have access to him in the future, because she believes it's important to have some kind of insight into the darkfriend organisation. It would certainly fit her morally ambiguous "Anything for the greater good".

[Phariah]

she pieces it all together. it is not that hard to believe tbh. dreams, investigation ( Moraine and Lan have been doing this a long time. they have connections from the Blue and her own network. ), through the investigations yes she would know of the shadier parts of the town, and lets not forget Perrin telling her about the forsaken being loose and about his Wolf Dreams. once she did it in Illian it would be stupid to not think of a Forsaken ruling other cities and especially one linked to the Dragon. so it would be easier and quicker for her to ferret out answers in Tear. she is an investigator and hunter of the Dragon, she has talents that aid this. she is Randland's version of Sherlock holmes. really easy to accept it.

 

from Moraine a guess is pretty close to solid fact. she did find the Dragon and had ideas that Rand was the Dragon out of the 3 boys.

 

i don't see this as some great mystery or RJ's device.

[Taura-Tierno]

she pieces it all together. it is not that hard to believe tbh. dreams, investigation ( Moraine and Lan have been doing this a long time. they have connections from the Blue and her own network. ), through the investigations yes she would know of the shadier parts of the town, and lets not forget Perrin telling her about the forsaken being loose and about his Wolf Dreams. once she did it in Illian it would be stupid to not think of a Forsaken ruling other cities and especially one linked to the Dragon. so it would be easier and quicker for her to ferret out answers in Tear. she is an investigator and hunter of the Dragon, she has talents that aid this. she is Randland's version of Sherlock holmes. really easy to accept it.

 

from Moraine a guess is pretty close to solid fact. she did find the Dragon and had ideas that Rand was the Dragon out of the 3 boys.

 

i don't see this as some great mystery or RJ's device.

 

Yes, she did find Rand, but it took her 20 years, and she even mentioned that she only had suspicions about Rand and didn't know for certain.

 

Even a good, educated guess is only a guess, not certainty beyond doubt.

 

Be'lal could just as eaily have been Rahvin, or Demandred. Same goes for Sammael. As has been mentioned before, there are several things in the books that indicate that there are no records of how the Forsaken look, since no one seems to even think it should be possible to know.

[mb]

Actually, the books neither confirm or deny about the records.

 

Though their appearance might not be the only way to identify them. Their accents/dialects might be another way and/or where they came from.

[jemron]

Let's not forget, Moiraine also seemed to know that Rand had Asmodean (or at least, she knew he had a male Forsaken with him) and she seemed to know very clearly (even before here trip to Rhuidean) that Lanfear was near/around Rand. How did she know that?

 

Maybe she had some sort of "dark ta'veren" identification Talent??

[David Selig]

Moiraine was eavesdropping on Rand and Asmodean's conversations and lessons. As for Lanfear, Rand told her about it after his meeting with lanfear in the Stone.

[herid]

Moiraine was eavesdropping on Rand and Asmodean's conversations and lessons.

How do we know that? I've always wondered about this because Moiraine definitely didn't recognize Asmodean right away. There was certainly no reason to conceal his identity (if she knew it) before Rand beat Asmodean at Rhuidean.

[jemron]

Moiraine was eavesdropping on Rand and Asmodean's conversations and lessons. As for Lanfear, Rand told her about it after his meeting with lanfear in the Stone.

 

Huh. I didn't even consider that. But it makes perfect sense. I guess it makes Moiraine more cool/mysterious when you don't know that she is probably just a really good spy. It takes the fun out of it a bit, but makes perfect sense.

[Stubob]

The only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, that would be considered "Deus Ex Machina", would be the Taveren effect(some might say there is a pattern there, which is arguable). "Deus Ex Machina", for example: War of the Worlds, when the aliens come to take over, destroying every defense we have and we can't do anything about it. Then, "The Hand of God" come into play and they all die of a virus.

 

The dying from lack of immunity makes perfect biological sense. It isn't expected going in but once you read it, yes it logically could happen.

 

Now if the Aliens had antibodies & some survived, then things would be interesting.

[Mongoose]

The dying from lack of immunity makes perfect biological sense. It isn't expected going in but once you read it, yes it logically could happen.

 

Now if the Aliens had antibodies & some survived, then things would be interesting.

 

 

That's sort of what the premise of the 80's TV series was. Except in that series bacteria just put them into indefinate hibernation, they weren't all dead.

[Stubob]

The dying from lack of immunity makes perfect biological sense. It isn't expected going in but once you read it, yes it logically could happen.

 

Now if the Aliens had antibodies & some survived, then things would be interesting.

 

 

That's sort of what the premise of the 80's TV series was. Except in that series bacteria just put them into indefinate hibernation, they weren't all dead.

 

I watched a bit of that series. I expected more than what it had.

[sleepinghour]

Moiraine was eavesdropping on Rand and Asmodean's conversations and lessons.

How do we know that? I've always wondered about this because Moiraine definitely didn't recognize Asmodean right away. There was certainly no reason to conceal his identity (if she knew it) before Rand beat Asmodean at Rhuidean.

There's a scene in TFoH where Egwene catches Moiraine eavesdropping on Rand:

 

Moiraine sat surrounded by the glow of saidar, the small blue stone that usually hung on her forehead dangling from her fingers in front of her face. It shone, adding a bit to the light of a single lamp. The firepit held only ashes; even the smell was gone.

"May I come in?"

She had to repeat herself before Moiraine answered. "Of course." The light of saidar faded away, and the Aes Sedai began fastening the fine golden chain back into her hair.

"You were eavesdropping on Rand?" Egwene settled herself beside the other woman. It was as cold in the tent as it was outside. She channeled flames atop the ashes in the firepit and tied the flow. "You said you would not do it again."

"I said that since the Wise Ones could watch his dreams, we should allow him some privacy. They have not asked again since he shut them out, and I have not offered. Remember that they have their own goals, which may not be those of the Tower."

[herid]

Moiraine was eavesdropping on Rand and Asmodean's conversations and lessons.

How do we know that? I've always wondered about this because Moiraine definitely didn't recognize Asmodean right away. There was certainly no reason to conceal his identity (if she knew it) before Rand beat Asmodean at Rhuidean.

There's a scene in TFoH where Egwene catches Moiraine eavesdropping on Rand:

 

Moiraine sat surrounded by the glow of saidar, the small blue stone that usually hung on her forehead dangling from her fingers in front of her face. It shone, adding a bit to the light of a single lamp. The firepit held only ashes; even the smell was gone.

"May I come in?"

She had to repeat herself before Moiraine answered. "Of course." The light of saidar faded away, and the Aes Sedai began fastening the fine golden chain back into her hair.

"You were eavesdropping on Rand?" Egwene settled herself beside the other woman. It was as cold in the tent as it was outside. She channeled flames atop the ashes in the firepit and tied the flow. "You said you would not do it again."

"I said that since the Wise Ones could watch his dreams, we should allow him some privacy. They have not asked again since he shut them out, and I have not offered. Remember that they have their own goals, which may not be those of the Tower."

Thanks! I totally forgot about this scene.

[hmenick]

Off topic i know, but for the record, in the original War of the Worlds (the book) the alien vulnerability to bacteria is alluded to at least twice long before it turns the tide of the war.

[Jong]

These questions of how did Moiraine find them out assume that they were really trying to hide. It seems obvious that neither Belal nor Sammael were afraid of being found by either Rand or Aes Sedai. Sammael wanted Rand to attack him in Illian.

[Monkeyfister]

Great thread!

 

A few things that I think are overlooked in this discussion:

 

1. Moiraine and Siuan are best friends, and have been on their crusade for decades.

2. Siuan was/is the Master of the Blue Ajah Eyes and Ears, and now, as Amerlyn, has a larger network and/or access to more reports, and the entire base of White Tower knowledge (that Mesaana hasn't yet destroyed).

3. There are PLENTY of stories/poems/songs about the Forsaken that RJ "casually" throws around as "used to scare children into behaving." There are bits of Truth embedded/remaining in every single one.

4. RJ goes out of his way to talk about well-known songs with different names/lyrics all over Randland. Again-- clues embedded in longevity.

5. Mat's "memories" out Asmodean, as he knows the real history, as opposed to Asmo's portrayals. Moraine most certainly cataloged and cross-referenced that.

6. Moiraine's eavesdropping capabilities are reinforced by RJ as pretty legendary.

7. Adeleas and Vandene are powerhouses of knowledge and skill.

8. Verin is a double-agent, and studied the 212-pages of fragments of the AoL stuff found in Chachin, as well as the Dragon Prophesies AND the Dark Prophesies. There are others who have examined the 212 pages. The two spent time together, in and out of reader-view.

9. Both Sammael and B'lal previously governed regions they ultimately settled back into, and know what secrets they stashed in those old places of power.

10. Moiraine can weave a "cloak of invisibility" thing with the Power.

11. Moiraine is not above putting Darkfriends to the question if needs be.

12. Moiraine has a strong spine, and a seriously big pair of brassies.

13. Moiraine is of a Noble House of Cairhien, and grew up with with a good library, knew all the songs and stories, as told by tutors, Court Bards and passing Gleemen. She also knows the lineages and standing of every Noble Family from the Randland Nations, and their histories, as would be expected of her in the home of Daes D'maer.

 

So. My theory is really quite simple:

 

Siuan sends Moiraine out on The Mission to find the Dragon, giving her Eyes and Ears networks orders to assist her in every possible way. CONSTANT messages are flowing between Siuan and the most trusted of Networks and getting to and from Moiraine. They tell her about these upstart lords suddenly rising to power, mass common bad dreams, people starving while armies are being raised and well-fed by a new Lord with a horrible scar, and similar stories about a silver-haired upstart with sword skills. Moiraine hears Perrin's Wolf Dream about three male Forsaken. Aginor told her that those first out were ground by the wheel, and all ate-up by it, "but the Dark Lord will give us new bodies soon," as stated up-thread. Deduction gets easy armed with all of this. Those old songs and stories are NOT throw-away filler, like "hands-on-hips," sniffs and snuffs, and Cairhienen color slashes.

 

As previously stated up-thread, she's good at deducing things logically. She disappears from Lan (to his consternation) regularly, does things Lan cannot easily abide, and clearly puts herself in danger's path out of POV range. His bond to Nynaeve fills in the gaps as to how he probably felt for Moirane, IMHO.

 

Little by little, she sifts the wheat from the chaff, using those old kid's stories, old Bard Song and poem lyrics, Vandene and Adeleas' library and personal knowledge, the bleeding-over of the Forsakens' dreams, etc-- and using the Eyes and Ears network, she and Siuan get pretty quickly to the logical end. Moiraine would be amiss to not let Siuan know where she intends to go-- or where the Wheel is leading her (probably coded messages). So, Siuane knows where to send answers for Moiraine's questions.

 

A bit of torturing a known Darkfriend or two, a few conversations with the local E&E networkers (and picking up and sending new messages to Siuan), a bit of Thom's intel, a bit of her own long history of info gathering, and deduction leads to only Sammael and B'lal.

 

Bottom line: Moirane ain't stoopit. She's born and raised of a Noble House in the most political intrigue-plagued nation in Randland. She has the friendship, and full support and resources of Siuan Sanche-- The Amerlyn Seat, and one of the most powerful women in Randland. She's pretty fearless, with a Gaidan (who happens to be the King of Malkier), and some well-placed friends at her back. She has a dire Mission, to which she is utterly dedicated, which opens her "morals" up to horizons some may find unsavory. Finally, she has mad skills with Saidar, the extent of which we have yet to actually see. Much of what she gleans is out of the reader's sight, or in sub-text.

 

 

Sidebar on the last sentence there: But we know pretty well that the two women on the cover of "A Memory of Light" (one in a Yellow dress, one in a Blue dress, while Rand wields Callandor), can be none other than Nynaeve and Moiraine... The only two Aes Sedai who ever fully proved to Rand/Lews Theron their guileless, agenda-free trustworthiness, love and devotion. Probably best to take this sidebar to a different thread entirely. Deus Ex Mashina is cluttering up the thread enough. By the way, this is my first thread here. Hi. Hope this first posting isn't stoopit.

 

 

[herid]

@monkeyfster I don't really want to get into a new discussion on this but I wanted to say that BS was asked to explain how Moiraine did it and he said he doesn't know. That effectively means that we will never know for sure. Personally, I find the explanation that she eavesdropped using the Power the best.

[AquilaInfernus]

I would have thought using the power would be more pronounced here. Yes she is very adept at eavesdropping with her blue stone chain, but there are other ways as well. She is very proficient at weaving, (something like top 6 prior to her Two Rivers jaunt) and the Forsaken are portrayed as being quite complacent, even contemptuous of their disguises (unless actively hiding like Lanfear or Moghedien). I would imagine testing for saidin resonance or weave residue is well within Moiraine's skill set and the possibilities would certainly allow her to cross-reference what she gleans quickly with the fragments she has read.

[Charlz Guybon]

Mazrim Taim and some of the male Forsaken have rocked sigils with a gauntleted fist clutching lightning bolts (each inlaid with a different metal IIRC). Sammael was one of them I think. If the records of their symbols survived, then that's a way Moiraine could have recognized them.