Wheel of Time Mafia Game Thread

[DrewRiley]

I agree with that, but I'm running various scenarios in my mind and this is the list of those on the stage:

 

Songs - started the whole mess with her claim, which was confirmed by Kwom

Quibby - confessed to targeting Red, only to be refuted by Songs. Aemon confirms that Quibby targeted him instead of Red.

Aeomon - Claims the Dragon Stillborn, but Red says he's NOT Rand. Stole an item from someone he believes to be a healer.

Ed2Funy - One of Red's 5, claimed to target someone else who stole something from him. I said die and he can't lie.

Piano - Red's 5 as well, targeted Aemon but didn't get a result, kinda like a finder but not, and further would reveal his nature. Hunter?

Kwom - confirms Songs accuracy, admits to targeting Red, but weakly claimed he was protecting her "in my own way"

Aust - also part of Red's 5, but cat got his tongue.

 

Who among these characters would a lynch give us the most information on?

 

 

The only problem I have with these scenarios is why didn't Player and Ed's roles work on Red? If Quibby targeted Red and Aemon was notified....then shouldn't vice versa happen as well?

 

Did Quibby ever say if his action went through on Aemon successfully?

 

It only makes sense if one of them is scum and tried to NK, and one of them tried to heal.

 

Ed obviously targeted Aemon, because Aemon then stole from Ed.

 

I'm sticking with my Ed vote. He sounds convincing with the whole "I can't lie" thing, but if I were scum I'd be doing the same thing. Fact is, we'll get some info if we lynch Ed - if he's a healer, it'll pretty much doom Piano.

[dapianoplay3r]

By that logic I should be the healer if Ed flips scum. Im not the healer

[aemonkristen]

Here's the part that is still bugging me: quibby targets Red and hits me. Song does not see him. (ASSUMPTION) Piano and Ed both target me and get shunted to Red. Song sees them. Kwom targets Red and is not affected at all. Song sees him. Kwon blows the whole case apart unless he admits to deflecting or bus driving. If he were bus driving it would then be logical to believe that a/the healer and a mafia NK targeted Red and got shunted to me and we are still in the dark as to who did who to what. I am going to go back to my original vote of

 

 

UNVOTE

 

VOTE BG

 

He has turned his game around from the scummy impression he was giving off on Day 1 and now playing a pretty clean game, but that could be attributed to a scum teammate advising him on what he was doing wrong.

[dapianoplay3r]

Your right actually. He was slipping under my radar completely

[dapianoplay3r]

I just checked the post count and these people have under 10 posts

Kwom Masbag 9

ThorkinBarrimore 8

CurtDragon 7

killuliu 4

paetric 4

stryder68 4

Deadlyfreind 3

TheMasterDude 3

 

You should all post more often and I am in favour that if they haven't made more of an effort by the next day phase we should seriously look at them. If they have been on DM but not posting I think that's extremely scummy

[Blackhoof]

Well you speak the truth but its just stating the obvious. I think BG's question was valid and you just shrugged it off.

 

Currently you are annoying me. I dont think your mafia any more though. I think if you were your team would have told you to tone it down a bit. This is not a "I think your Town" post. I will probably revise this opinion soon but currently I think your not the scummiest person out there just because of how your team if you were mafia would have acted towards you. I am very easily wrong on this point since it is so weak but its enough not to get my vote for now

 

I must congratulate you, Player, your argument was both articulate and well-thought-out. However, it all rests on my erratic, immature, irrational behaviour. Scummy? Perhaps to the experienced eye, but i was merely excited about my first real mafia game. I do not know what scum act like, as no-one had told me what not to do (reading the wiki may have been smart ) Can you blame an alien for shooting a human for waving in greeting when that same gesture for that alien means "i shall soon destroy you and eat your organs, have a nice day"! in sign language?

 

- What was with my votes, you say? Well who else was i suppose to vote for? I did not know how to form a real case of my own, so i just spouted some theory that had no proof and leapt on whoever made the most sense to me at the time. When an argument was made that swayed me away from my previous target, i either changed, or i didnt, on a whim.

 

- What was with my comments, you say? If every comment i made that had no relation to the game (some of which you have taken for clever ruses, much to my amusement) was erased, i would STILL be under fire by you for being inactive! What would i say? I had nothing of consequence to say, so i made a flippant remark that made no real sense. Was that bad? In hindsight, yes. But what are noobs supposed to say when theu have no leads to go on that no-one has taken already?

 

- And that brings me to this point. Perhaps those players you listed are not evil lurking mafia, but just shy people that have nothing to say as the big guys (Red, aemon, mynd, player, etc.) have said it all before they could. Where is the fun in saying "yeah! lets get'im" and jumping on the bandwagon? This is not a defence, by any means, but i am merely saying that there may be more to this than meets the eye.

[dapianoplay3r]

I am aware your new. I was new once. I got into a page debate with Ed arguing how I wanted to become the godfather because I thought he was so awesome. I didnt know it was a role at the time...

 

I would also like to say that as you will see I changed my mind about you. I no longer felt the need to lynch you because I realised a lot of what was bugging me was just Noobness and nothing that substantial. I just had a gut feeling about you and I like to check my gut feelings.

 

I just think your voting should be a little more subdued. Word a advice. Dont follow every case against someone with a vote. Think it through and do a reread if you can. Ive been in some games where the mafia led us by the nose for day because their cases seemed more reasoned and thought out than any other we were bringing out. You may be new but your vote still counts as much as mine and mafia will try and use you.

 

Ive also sat back in games that is why ive said if they havent made an appearance by tomorrow. You cant post scummy if you dont post so often there will be one or two scum lurkers in a game this size just waiting to jump on a bandwagon. I just wanted to bring those names to attention of the group

[dapianoplay3r]

I am aware your new. I was new once. I got into a page debate with Ed arguing how I wanted to become the godfather because I thought he was so awesome. I didnt know it was a role at the time...

 

I would also like to say that as you will see I changed my mind about you. I no longer felt the need to lynch you because I realised a lot of what was bugging me was just Noobness and nothing that substantial. I just had a gut feeling about you and I like to check my gut feelings.

 

I just think your voting should be a little more subdued. Word a advice. Dont follow every case against someone with a vote. Think it through and do a reread if you can. Ive been in some games where the mafia led us by the nose for day because their cases seemed more reasoned and thought out than any other we were bringing out. You may be new but your vote still counts as much as mine and mafia will try and use you.

 

Ive also sat back in games that is why ive said if they havent made an appearance by tomorrow. You cant post scummy if you dont post so often there will be one or two scum lurkers in a game this size just waiting to jump on a bandwagon. I just wanted to bring those names to attention of the group

[ed2funy]

actually, as far as I know, my action still went through.

If I were fully playingthe game, I would ask Red if her NA went through,,,

 

And Player, I remember tha game.,good tmes. lol

[CurtisScafe]

I just checked the post count and these people have under 10 posts

Kwom Masbag 9

ThorkinBarrimore 8

CurtDragon 7

killuliu 4

paetric 4

stryder68 4

Deadlyfreind 3

TheMasterDude 3

 

You should all post more often and I am in favour that if they haven't made more of an effort by the next day phase we should seriously look at them. If they have been on DM but not posting I think that's extremely scummy

1000 posts in a thread 10 days old. Easy to follow and read? Yes? No?

So would adding to the post that some are already having a hard time following and making good judgments help that? There are a lot of repeated information, lots of flawed logic. It just takes time to sort through it all. There is a lot of misdirection and I do not mean items or roles. Just how people are playing. There are a few people that act as the light and I am having a hard time being convinced while others blindly accept that they are.

 

In war sitting back and analyzing the situation before striking does not define being scummy

[Red2111]

The nature of Kwom's role & who Aemon stole from. the answers to these two pieces will tell me who best to vote for out of Aust, Ed & Player tbh. (moving this to the top so these two cant say tl;dr lol

 

 

 

Ed - i had no NA last night so i'm not sure if it woudl have went through or not. because i stepped over the rules, Womby punished me by removing my Item and making me Vanilla for the night.

 

UNVOTE i'm gonna give Ed the benefit of the doubt for now. but i can't say i like keeping a self proclaimed non-active player around. especially if he is a town role. we might need your vote one day, and since you've said you haven't really read the game it could possibly hurt us. i can't remember, has Wombat confirmed that your looking to be replaced? if h isn't, could he do so on the game thread at least?

 

on Aust, i also agree that he's most likely been silenced, but i didn't voice this. it's the only reaosn why my vote isn't on him. i do think once he begins talking again, we should apply pressure on him; scum have been known to silence (or pretend to silence) one of their own to try and clear them.

 

 

Actually, up until now I was saying you were the better lynch, in case Aemon actually is the real DR. However, I feel differently on that matter now, and placed my vote accordingly.

 

that still doesn't explain why though Verb. which is wierd for you, because normally you give a reason.

 

 

 

Absolutely not. How would any given townie know that Song is not scum herself? A double vote item could easily have started with the mafia....making assumptions otherwise is not a good idea.

 

i have to disagree. giving the scum a DV role/item woudl give them way too much power where the lynch is concerned. this is one reason why i give Song the benefit of the doubt and have her lower on my list.

 

 

..and if Aemon claims to be the Dragon Reborn but not Rand al'Thor, could he be Taim?

 

Mynd, seriously, are you only half paying attention?? your summary's (while good) have been just that, summaries. no new info, just a recap of whats already happened. your throw out "new" thoughts that have already been discussed over and your "help" almost seems like it's not.

 

i'm almost tempted to vote you for this, becuase Aemon & Verb are right; it does look like your just skimming.

 

 

 

Thanks my dear, but I just recalled that Kwom confirmed your original claim.

 

What we know:

 

Songs could not have been redirected because Kwom confirms that he targeted Red and not Aemon.

 

Ed and Piano claim to have targeted someone else, but are said to have targeted Red instead.

 

Ed says the person he targeted stole from him.

 

Aemon stole something from someone he feels is The Healer. you're not paying attention. he says this point was moot becuase the object he obtained came from me. no i'm not the Healer either, but that was my Angreal.

 

Aust has not posted since the beginning of Day 2.

 

Quibby claims to have targeted Red but ended up targeting Aemon instead.

 

Aemon claims to be the Dragon Stillborn but Red points out that he is not Rand.

 

* * * * *

 

Please check me on the above if I am assuming anything or making a mistake.

 

I think things are beginning to make sense. I contend that one of the targets on Red was a form of Dark Friend nastiness and it wasn't from Ed or Songs. Kwom claims he was protecting her but was vague in how, not claiming to be a direct healer but protecting her "in my own way"

 

Aust is silent. Either he has been muted or is pretending to be mute. Doesn't mean he's innocent, he could have been muted by a townie or a reaction to targeting Red. if it was a reaction to targetting me, then i don't know abotu it; and i would think that Song & Kwom would be silenced as well if that were the case.

 

At this point, Piano might be our best bet. Thoughts? I'm thinking this as well

 

my answers are in blue

 

 

The only problem I have with these scenarios is why didn't Player and Ed's roles work on Red? If Quibby targeted Red and Aemon was notified....then shouldn't vice versa happen as well?

 

Did Quibby ever say if his action went through on Aemon successfully?

 

yes, Aemon posted the messages he recieved via PM about 6 pages back, which imo confirms Quibby's story. and you're right about the underlined part if Kwom is a Busdriver of some sort. that effectively switches peoples places. a re-director on the other hand is more of a one way street.

 

heres an example of both

 

BusDriver - A is a Bus Driver. A targets B & C. D targets B, but the NA hits C. E targets C, but the NA hits B. this is what i mean by 2 way street.

 

Redirector - A is a Redirector. A targets/protects B & askes for all NA's to instead target C. D targets B, but the NA hits C. while E targets C, and the NA hits C. this is what i mean by one way street.

 

 

I don't really have much to add to the discussion (mostly because I don't have the time at the moment), but I'd like to remind that we should not believe people who claim they can't lie: we know how AS oaths work: they can't speak a word they think is a lie. So if they have been misinformed (why couldn't they be misinformed?) they can lie without knowing it and we all know that it is not forbidden to falsely hint character. So anyone can claim to be AS and say "I can't lie", but we wouldn't know for sure.

 

concerning AS & lieing, i think you have a fair point.

 

as for the claiming, i dunno. didn't Wombat basically say that all hints & reveals (both true & false) would be treated the same and MKd after what happened to me?

 

 

Here's the part that is still bugging me: quibby targets Red and hits me. Song does not see him. (ASSUMPTION) Piano and Ed both target me and get shunted to Red. Song sees them. Kwom targets Red and is not affected at all. Song sees him. Kwon blows the whole case apart unless he admits to deflecting or bus driving. If he were bus driving it would then be logical to believe that a/the healer and a mafia NK targeted Red and got shunted to me and we are still in the dark as to who did who to what. I am going to go back to my original vote of

 

that makes sense. the only thing is, that Player's respons of "i've been told my NA failed" doesn't add up in this scenario. which is why i'm getting suspicious of him again. i think at this point it is best for Kwom to fully reveal his role, this will shed light on the situation alot.

 

Aemon, who did you steal from, if you don't mind me asking. this could also clear up a few questions in this mess of a situation we have.

 

we also don't know what part Aust played in this whole thing, so theres an unaccounted for piece of the puzzle as well.

 

 

i have two main theories on what went on last night, but i need these two questions answered before i settle on one.

[Verbal32]

Thanks my dear, but I just recalled that Kwom confirmed your original claim.

 

What we know:

 

Songs could not have been redirected because Kwom confirms that he targeted Red and not Aemon.

 

Ed and Piano claim to have targeted someone else, but are said to have targeted Red instead.

 

Ed says the person he targeted stole from him.

 

Aemon stole something from someone he feels is The Healer.

 

Aust has not posted since the beginning of Day 2.

 

Quibby claims to have targeted Red but ended up targeting Aemon instead.

 

Aemon claims to be the Dragon Stillborn but Red points out that he is not Rand.

 

* * * * *

 

Please check me on the above if I am assuming anything or making a mistake.

 

I think things are beginning to make sense. I contend that one of the targets on Red was a form of Dark Friend nastiness and it wasn't from Ed or Songs. Kwom claims he was protecting her but was vague in how, not claiming to be a direct healer but protecting her "in my own way"

 

Aust is silent. Either he has been muted or is pretending to be mute. Doesn't mean he's innocent, he could have been muted by a townie or a reaction to targeting Red.

 

At this point, Piano might be our best bet. Thoughts?

 

Gotta say, other than the Healer bit that Aemon cleared up, I agree with you. Perhaps a lynch somewhere within the major players here would work? Redirectors and Bus Drivers are bad roles to get information from unless full disclosure is used.....and I'm not quite sure it's being used here.

 

 

Actually, up until now I was saying you were the better lynch, in case Aemon actually is the real DR. However, I feel differently on that matter now, and placed my vote accordingly.

 

that still doesn't explain why though Verb. which is wierd for you, because normally you give a reason.

 

Hmm....I thought I gave one? It seemed the proper play to me.

 

 

Absolutely not. How would any given townie know that Song is not scum herself? A double vote item could easily have started with the mafia....making assumptions otherwise is not a good idea.

 

i have to disagree. giving the scum a DV role/item woudl give them way too much power where the lynch is concerned. this is one reason why i give Song the benefit of the doubt and have her lower on my list.

 

Scum is the minority, and this is a large game. I don't think it would be overpowered for scum to start with the item. I see your point, though, so I guess it could go either way.

[aemonkristen]

Since I now know that the item was not originally his and I believe the healer got shunted over to me and is therefore in the clear, I stole the item from Ed. I have been trying to figure out how this info could help us, but I'm drawing a blank. The item was given to the first person to PM Wombat and ask for it, so it is really a null tell on alignment. I sent a PM for it as well, but I was too late. Right now I feel like we are just chasing our tails with the night actions. We have gotten a lot of good information from the discussions, but I just don't feel we are any closer to finding scum. It has turned into a crap shoot on Ed, Piano and Aust. Aust is pretty much immune to lynch today because he (possibly) has been silenced. Between Ed and Piano I don't really have a preference and that makes me hesitate.

 

Something we have not really discussed much is the notes I received last night. I'd like to hear Quibby tell us why he wanted to send a message to Red that said "He is not who he appears to be" and "The Horn has been claimed by an innocent". I am curious about what information he has that the rest of us do not. The first message sounds like scum trying to keep the pot stirred up. Possibly trying to make it look like mod info regarding me. The second message could have made just to "back up" a "mod giving extra info" play. Unfortunately for him, Song was watching and then he revealed before Song could name names. He outed himself or he would have coasted through the whole game undetected. I keep asking myself: How does this anonymous message sending ability help the town? I can see some possibilities, but the majority of the scenarios I come up with are for scum.

[Alanna]

Isn't there a role called 'Neighbor' or something where you send messages? And it's a town role, I think. However, I agree that the message about 'he's not who you think' or whatever it was sounds suspicious. Unless he knows something about you that we don't, Aemon

[WWWwombat]

Vote Count

 

TMD (1): Locke

Blackhoof (2): Quibby, bg

bg (2): Blackhoof, Aemon

Aust (1): Song

Quibby (2): AJ, Ahmoondah

Aemon (1): Verbal

Ed (1): Drew

Player (1): trench

 

With 33 alive, I take 17 to lynch.

Deadline: Friday, 6:30 PM EST

[Red2111]

^^ why do you hate us Womby?? we love you, cuase this game is awesome dude!

 

 

 

Since I now know that the item was not originally his and I believe the healer got shunted over to me and is therefore in the clear, I stole the item from Ed. I have been trying to figure out how this info could help us, but I'm drawing a blank. The item was given to the first person to PM Wombat and ask for it, so it is really a null tell on alignment. I sent a PM for it as well, but I was too late. Right now I feel like we are just chasing our tails with the night actions. We have gotten a lot of good information from the discussions, but I just don't feel we are any closer to finding scum. It has turned into a crap shoot on Ed, Piano and Aust. Aust is pretty much immune to lynch today because he (possibly) has been silenced. Between Ed and Piano I don't really have a preference and that makes me hesitate.

 

but Ed is claiming that he's not paying attention. by his own comments of "i'm not sure who Red is claiming as"/"we should ask Red if her NK went through" then honestly he shouldn't have known to PM wombat for the item in the first place. which if you did steal the item from Ed, and he claims his target stole from him; then i question this whole "i'm only half paying attention until i'm replaced" as a cover.

 

Aemon, that item you descirbed is exactly the item that Wombat took from me. it prevented me from being Role Blocked & i couldn't be stilled by an unaided channeler; also, the item (when i had it) could not be stolen. i asked Wombat alot of questions to start out with, and this is one i made sure to ask about. that item wasn't from the Helaer, because i am not the Healer.

 

 

my gut says to stay with this info. certain pieces dont add up, and i do think atleast one person in this tangle is scum. i've also got a gut feeling that there is more than 1 scum team, so we might have a scum from each side caught up in this mess.

 

maybe the reason why we can't choose between Player & Ed is because both are scum from opposing teams. both are equally scummy and have info that doesn't match up. Players whole "info" revelation felt forced imo. people have been mentioning "they probably both targetted Ed"

 

first player pulls a leaf out of Ed's hat and says "i aint revealing and FOS @ you for asking me too" then he's pressured a bit and changes his tune and says "yeah i targetted Aemon". but it still doesn't explain why he woudl be told "your NA has failed"

 

 

and Ed. well theres the stuff with his inactivity, yet he was quick enough to get my item form Womby. his post was really defensive imo and snappish. he claims that he wants to be removed from the game, but fights a lynch attempt. the last two are easily townie actions, but could also be used by scum just as easily.

 

 

i'm leaning a bit more towards Player now.

 

 

 

Something we have not really discussed much is the notes I received last night. I'd like to hear Quibby tell us why he wanted to send a message to Red that said "He is not who he appears to be" and "The Horn has been claimed by an innocent". I am curious about what information he has that the rest of us do not. The first message sounds like scum trying to keep the pot stirred up. Possibly trying to make it look like mod info regarding me. The second message could have made just to "back up" a "mod giving extra info" play. Unfortunately for him, Song was watching and then he revealed before Song could name names. He outed himself or he would have coasted through the whole game undetected. I keep asking myself: How does this anonymous message sending ability help the town? I can see some possibilities, but the majority of the scenarios I come up with are for scum.

 

well the nature of it sounds like he's able to speak to people in T'A'R. the only character i know that can do that is sure to be town honestly. i've seen roles or abilitys that are like "seer's" where each day the mod gives them an answer to the games mechanics, or a truthful answer to something asked and they're able to pass it along if they choose to.

 

i do question why he would send me info i already know though; unless it means that you aren't a false dragon and are just pretending to be one.

 

but i think if you are scum, you'll be found out soon because i'm sure you & i are on top of both the NK & finder's lists.

 

 

also, those two answers that you recieved from Quibby; the questions he asked imo are smart. if i had the power ot ask the creator questions, those would be two i'd ask

 

 

[killuliu]

 

as for the claiming, i dunno. didn't Wombat basically say that all hints & reveals (both true & false) would be treated the same and MKd after what happened to me?

 

 

But we have at least one person saying "I can't lie" and thus implying that he is an Aes Sedai, but he has not been punished (as far as I've seen). So maybe that isn't clear or good enough hint, because there are also hundreds of other reasons why he couldn't lie.

[Red2111]

i think it has to be a direct character hint.

 

for instance. if this was Harry Potter game, witht he same no hint/reveal rule.

 

saying "i'm able to do magic" is acceptable because multiple characters can do magic. but saying "i wear glasses and am in Gryffindor" well thats an obvious hint that people will connect Harry Potter to; but its also vauge enough to mean a few characters (DD, James, Minerva, among others)

 

 

theres the difference.

[Red2111]

btw, went back and re-read my PM convo with Wombat; i was mistaken. my Angreal could be stolen, so nevermind that bit Aemon.

[aemonkristen]

We need to start consolidating votes today. I am agreeable with an Ed or Piano lynch. I can wait on the BG thing for awhile to try and clear up the mess that happened last night. I think Piano would give us the most information on a lynch, but I lean slightly more toward Ed being scum. Who do you propose we lynch? I am also curious why Kwom hasn't told us if he is a bus driver.

[DrewRiley]

We need to start consolidating votes today. I am agreeable with an Ed or Piano lynch. I can wait on the BG thing for awhile to try and clear up the mess that happened last night. I think Piano would give us the most information on a lynch, but I lean slightly more toward Ed being scum. Who do you propose we lynch? I am also curious why Kwom hasn't told us if he is a bus driver.

 

I agree with this, I lean toward Ed being scum, so I'd rather lynch him. But if it swings toward player, I'll lynch him too. In any case, we have just over a day to get 17 votes for one of these two, so let's do it. My vote is still on Ed.

[Kwom Masbag]

Ask and you shall receive; I'm a bus driver. Sorry that I didn't respond right away; I had been sleeping while this part of the conversation was going on.

[killuliu]

i think it has to be a direct character hint.

 

for instance. if this was Harry Potter game, witht he same no hint/reveal rule.

 

saying "i'm able to do magic" is acceptable because multiple characters can do magic. but saying "i wear glasses and am in Gryffindor" well thats an obvious hint that people will connect Harry Potter to; but its also vauge enough to mean a few characters (DD, James, Minerva, among others)

 

 

theres the difference.

 

But not only implies saying that "I can't lie" that you are Aes Sedai but also that you are not of black ajah, unless you are lieing.

 

[/font]I will not lie. If so, it will cause the Creator to smite me (i.e. Womby will keel me).

So ed claims that he can't lie (in some earlier message, sorry I'm too lazy to find it right now, might later) and thus is a good AS, he also claims that if he would lie Womby would smite him. And as Womby hasn't smiten him, it means either that ed is really a good AS, or that he is lieing and Womby doesn't care to smite him.

 

I still feel there is something fishy in ed, but I can't right get hang of it. I was trying to find it, but this was all that I managed to work out and I'm starting to believe ed shouldn't be lynched (yet).

 

And I'm quite sure some of you will wonder why I became so active now, just after piano pointed I'd been pretty inactive in this topic: it's just because now I have the needed time. As you can read in a couple of topics, I've said that I would be busy for some time, but I'm happy that now those things are done and I can again spend enough time with this forum.

[Red2111]

thansk Drew. this explains alot then, and heres what i think went down last night

 

- Drew targetted me & Aemon.

 

- Song targetted me and got shuffled over to Aemon. there for her list shows people who targeted Aemon, not me.

 

- this explains why Ed & Player show up on the list, as well as why Drew would.

 

- this also explains why Quibby's messages went to Aemon, not me.

 

- this also means that Ed is telling the truth; the player he targetted (Aemon) is the person who theifed from him.

 

 

yet Ed & Players Actions should have been re-directed to me; and so far as i know, nothing has happened to me. Player claims his NA Failed, yet the Bus Driver wouldn't have caused this tbh

 

 

so given this new info, and that i trust Player alot less than i trust Ed atm. VOTE: PLAYER

[Alanna]

OKay, I haven't read your whole post, but you mean Kwom and not Drew right?